Conjuration [Archive] - Wizards Community

Conjuration [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Felthas
12-06-05, 03:07 PM I am sure that this question has been posted many times, but please bear with me since I am new to the boards, and I cannot locate the answer.

Why is it that Conjuration spells bypass SR?

I can see that Summoning would be most likely non-applicable, but there are damaging spells in the Complete Arcane (and including Melf's Acid Arrow in the PHB) in which can be used to lopside a fight.

IMO: using the spells in the Complete Arcane that are direct damage with the bypass, weakens the Invocation school of magic, which is mostly effected.

Thanks!

- Felthas
Puca
12-06-05, 03:15 PM The idea, as I understand it, is that an actual physical object is created/called into being with conjuration. As an actual thing, as opposed to a burst of magical energy, it can then affect creatures inspite of their resistance to magic.

Many people agree with you on the effect that the Orb spells have on the school of evocation.
Lord Lorac Silvanos
12-06-05, 03:23 PM So the in game explanation is that the object is not magic in itself, it is simply assembled with magic.

From the SRD:
Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

It does not weaken the Evocation school, but it might make it less attractive. Im my view this is balanced by the fact that many of the Evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage compared to the Conjuration school.
A discussion of whether individual spells in the Conjuration school is balanced is another topic :-)

Welcome to the boards:-)
tarkin
12-06-05, 03:41 PM Also note, Not all conjuration spells have SR None.

And some Evocation spells have SR None.

See Storm of Vengenace and Fire Shield
tiercel
12-06-05, 08:06 PM Something like melf's acid arrow is the one that makes me stop and go "hmmmm" a bit, but I can rationalize it.

Acid, after all, is a substance that can exist on its own nonmagically. You could create alchemical acid and throw it, so, the spell merely creates a ball of acid and somehow magically propels it. Also note that acid tends to do damage over time (this is true of melf's acid arrow and acid fog at least).

I've grumbled about the Complete Arcane orb spells because they make a lot less sense. The non-acid orbs seem just silly (pure, nonmagical fire? cold? force? what?), the acid orb does a large burst of damage at a single go for some reason, unlike most acid damage that doesn't involve sudden immersion, and the whole "feel" of the spell is one of Evocation. It was like they only made it Conjuration so that they could make it "SR: No" and weaken Evocation and, along with the area effect "Conjurations" like arc lightning and blast of flame, devalue SR as a viable defense.

The canonical example of ridiculous orbs is the idea of a sorcerer or warmage facing a magic-"immune" creature (golem) standing inside an antimagic aura and blasting it to death with his magic (namely, orbs). --Disclaimer: yes, you could do this Core with melf's acid arrows, but they do damage much more slowly and by default are limited to a single energy type.

The other problem is that once you allow "SR: No" spells that are similar to Evocations such as a souped-up scorching ray, or cone of cold, or lightning bolt, where do you stop? Presumably you could create an "SR: No" spell that works like enervation by "creating and throwing a nonmagical ball of pure negative energy."

Meh.

Finally, there are a lot of monsters whose CR is partially due to their having SR (including many outsiders, such as demons and devils). Under Core rules, there are spells you can use that avoid SR, but you are somewhat limited. If you then introduce Complete Arcane, with its additional "SR: No" spells, and its various other ways to make defeating SR easier... but you don't have any way to make SR better to compensate... then SR isn't worth as much. Creatures with significant or high SR just aren't as challenging as they would be in Core rules, and accordingly they should have a lower CR (and a lower XP reward) than they would under Core rules.
runestar
12-06-05, 09:20 PM The rationale behind the various orb spells is that the only magical aspect behind it is the magic used to summon the orb to your hand, afterwards, hurling that orb of acid at a foe is no different from tossing a flask of acid at him, hence the bypassing of sr.

If you have watched how Bu Jingyun from "Wind and Cloud"/"Stormchasers" executes his cloud palm(he causes a globe of water to revolve around his hand before sending it streaking towards his foes), you can imagine how this is possible. Else, it just seems to make no sense.
Felthas
12-06-05, 10:41 PM Thanks for all the posts. :D

- Felthas
Jherid
12-06-05, 11:26 PM Presumably you could create an "SR: No" spell that works like enervation by "creating and throwing a nonmagical ball of pure negative energy."

Actually they made something like that in Magic of Eberron, I don't remember if it was Conjuration or SR: No, though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Felthas 12-06-05, 03:07 PM	I am sure that this question has been posted many times, but please bear with me since I am new to the boards, and I cannot locate the answer. Why is it that Conjuration spells bypass SR? I can see that Summoning would be most likely non-applicable, but there are damaging spells in the Complete Arcane (and including Melf's Acid Arrow in the PHB) in which can be used to lopside a fight. IMO: using the spells in the Complete Arcane that are direct damage with the bypass, weakens the Invocation school of magic, which is mostly effected. Thanks! - Felthas
Puca 12-06-05, 03:15 PM	The idea, as I understand it, is that an actual physical object is created/called into being with conjuration. As an actual thing, as opposed to a burst of magical energy, it can then affect creatures inspite of their resistance to magic. Many people agree with you on the effect that the Orb spells have on the school of evocation.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 12-06-05, 03:23 PM	So the in game explanation is that the object is not magic in itself, it is simply assembled with magic. From the SRD: Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence. It does not weaken the Evocation school, but it might make it less attractive. Im my view this is balanced by the fact that many of the Evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage compared to the Conjuration school. A discussion of whether individual spells in the Conjuration school is balanced is another topic :-) Welcome to the boards:-)
tarkin 12-06-05, 03:41 PM	Also note, Not all conjuration spells have SR None. And some Evocation spells have SR None. See Storm of Vengenace and Fire Shield
tiercel 12-06-05, 08:06 PM	Something like melf's acid arrow is the one that makes me stop and go "hmmmm" a bit, but I can rationalize it. Acid, after all, is a substance that can exist on its own nonmagically. You could create alchemical acid and throw it, so, the spell merely creates a ball of acid and somehow magically propels it. Also note that acid tends to do damage over time (this is true of melf's acid arrow and acid fog at least). I've grumbled about the Complete Arcane orb spells because they make a lot less sense. The non-acid orbs seem just silly (pure, nonmagical fire? cold? force? what?), the acid orb does a large burst of damage at a single go for some reason, unlike most acid damage that doesn't involve sudden immersion, and the whole "feel" of the spell is one of Evocation. It was like they only made it Conjuration so that they could make it "SR: No" and weaken Evocation and, along with the area effect "Conjurations" like arc lightning and blast of flame, devalue SR as a viable defense. The canonical example of ridiculous orbs is the idea of a sorcerer or warmage facing a magic-"immune" creature (golem) standing inside an antimagic aura and blasting it to death with his magic (namely, orbs). --Disclaimer: yes, you could do this Core with melf's acid arrows, but they do damage much more slowly and by default are limited to a single energy type. The other problem is that once you allow "SR: No" spells that are similar to Evocations such as a souped-up scorching ray, or cone of cold, or lightning bolt, where do you stop? Presumably you could create an "SR: No" spell that works like enervation by "creating and throwing a nonmagical ball of pure negative energy." Meh. Finally, there are a lot of monsters whose CR is partially due to their having SR (including many outsiders, such as demons and devils). Under Core rules, there are spells you can use that avoid SR, but you are somewhat limited. If you then introduce Complete Arcane, with its additional "SR: No" spells, and its various other ways to make defeating SR easier... but you don't have any way to make SR better to compensate... then SR isn't worth as much. Creatures with significant or high SR just aren't as challenging as they would be in Core rules, and accordingly they should have a lower CR (and a lower XP reward) than they would under Core rules.
runestar 12-06-05, 09:20 PM	The rationale behind the various orb spells is that the only magical aspect behind it is the magic used to summon the orb to your hand, afterwards, hurling that orb of acid at a foe is no different from tossing a flask of acid at him, hence the bypassing of sr. If you have watched how Bu Jingyun from "Wind and Cloud"/"Stormchasers" executes his cloud palm(he causes a globe of water to revolve around his hand before sending it streaking towards his foes), you can imagine how this is possible. Else, it just seems to make no sense.
Felthas 12-06-05, 10:41 PM	Thanks for all the posts. :D - Felthas
Jherid 12-06-05, 11:26 PM	Presumably you could create an "SR: No" spell that works like enervation by "creating and throwing a nonmagical ball of pure negative energy." Actually they made something like that in Magic of Eberron, I don't remember if it was Conjuration or SR: No, though.