Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Vorpal Tribble 08-04-05, 02:17 PM	Ok, I'm playing a druid and decided to use one of these spells from Frostburn, Conjure Ice Beast. Looking over it my eyes just kinda bugged. A wolf for example now becomes an Ice Wolf. Becomes a construct, gains all the immunities of one plus loses a constitution score, gains 20 more hit points, +4 to AC, deals extra cold damage on a successful attack, and radiates an aura of cold that harms anyone who even gets near it. This is no longer a wolf but a serious opponent. Why would any druid ever use Summon Nature's Ally when they can get all this extra by using a Snow Beast? The base creature's special attacks go away, but except for elementals all you can summon are animals which don't have all that much in the way of special attacks to begin with. And those that do are easily outdone by the ice-beasts special abilities and such. Am I missing something?
Calatash 08-04-05, 02:23 PM	Doesnt Conjure Ice Beast cause it to lose a crap load of its abilities? Might not be an issue for lower level SNAs, but with the higher level things, you might stand to lose alot. But I dont have Frostburn with me.
The Vorpal Tribble 08-04-05, 02:30 PM	All the base creature loses is its special qualities and ability to fly if it had one, but even gets to keep all its natural attacks. And except for a Satyr at 5th level, a druid can't even summon anything that isn't an animal aside from the elementals. At 7th level you start getting creatures with special qualities, sure, but an ice beast has more immunities than any of the 7th level creatures, and is more versatile than most though unicorns and xorns have their place, though the ice beast does more damage than any. Basically you have to wait till you are a 9th level druid before any non-ice beasts start becoming as powerful. Until then Ice Beasts will be blasting the competition. Oh, and also didn't mention this thing's Ice Breath that lets it breathe out cold, and its damage reduction that raises with the HD.
Selebius 08-04-05, 04:14 PM	Well, if the creature has a breath attack it cannot also have the Cold Aura. Ice Creatures are powerful but so are dustform creatures, which can be summoned by the Summon desert ally spell. Ice creature have better abilitys but their cold subtype is more a weakness than a strenght. However, Ice and Dustform creatures are powerful alternatives to the creatures conjured by low level Summon Natures Ally and Summon Monster spells. Sel
primemover003 08-04-05, 04:42 PM	If it's A Conjuration (creation) spell it isn't stopped by Protection from Evil or Magic Circle against Evil, etc... That's a Huge advantage! It's more like the Astral Construct psionic power than a Summoning spell... It just depends on it's Subschool.
Selebius 08-04-05, 04:50 PM	Well, Conjure Ice Beast is indeed a conjuration(creation) spell. Summon Desert Ally OTOH is conjuration(summoning). Sel
COPUS Chief 08-04-05, 06:22 PM	*Conjures Ice Beast* Ezikial, Sorcerer of Flame: O-o <FIREBALL!> Ice Beast: X_____X Fire spells do double damage to Creatures with an Ice Descriptor. If it doesnt gain one, this should be a common sense call. You have to play your advantages. Ice is good in general if it wont be melted. Otherwise? Well, Plan B.
smrtgmp 08-04-05, 07:09 PM	IMO, one of the best things about the SNA spells is that you dont have to prepare them. Not so for conjure ice beast. Furthermore, as a calling spell, it wont be buffed by feats such as Augment Summoning or Greenbound Summoning.
The Vorpal Tribble 08-04-05, 07:23 PM	So because it is vulnerable to fire its automatically a weak creature Selebius/COPUS? But aye, it does remind me alot of an astral construct. On the whole this thing sounds way too good to be true. I'm currently a 4th level druid, and I can be assured that even if I raised five more levels I will have a tremendously powerful ally to bring forth. And better yet I don't have to cause pain and suffering on an actual living critter ;) --- Btw... Well, if the creature has a breath attack it cannot also have the Cold Aura. Doesn't say anything like this in Frostburn. Where'd that ruling come from?
COPUS Chief 08-04-05, 07:25 PM	Vorpal, Ill thank you to not put words in my mouth ever again. Thank you. I was SAYING that as an Ice Creature, or for any creature with an element, it is inherently doomed to double damage from a proper source. EDIT: Doomed is too strong a word. I mean, it will have to deal with the fact that the proper source gets double damage.
Lord shadow35 08-04-05, 07:27 PM	can it be dispelled? If it can be dispelled it is equal power to SNA. Because SNA can be dispelled.
The Vorpal Tribble 08-04-05, 09:18 PM	Vorpal, Ill thank you to not put words in my mouth ever again. Thank you. Chill, it was a question. I was asking if thats what you were saying, not saying that you had said it. However, it may take double damage from fire, but until you get into higher levels it probably has 2-4 times as many hit points as the original creature, so its not actually any weaker for its vulnerability comparatively. can it be dispelled? If it can be dispelled it is equal power to SNA. Because SNA can be dispelled. I suppose it can be dispelled. Basically it is alike to Summon Nature's Ally except its an ice creature. How does it being able to be dispelled make them equal?
COPUS Chief 08-04-05, 09:28 PM	Sorry, Vorpal. I took what you said as something more pointed than what it was. I apologize, my fault.
beaver1024 08-06-05, 04:38 AM	Notice how Conjure Ice Beast and Summon Desert Ally are all divine spells? I should have expected it since druids and clerics are effectively better summoners than conjurers.
smrtgmp 08-06-05, 04:55 AM	I was SAYING that as an Ice Creature, or for any creature with an element, it is inherently doomed to double damage from a proper source. EDIT: Doomed is too strong a word. I mean, it will have to deal with the fact that the proper source gets double damage.It should be noted that they only take an additional 50% damage. Cold Subtype: A creature with the cold subtype has immunity to cold. It has vulnerability to fire, which means it takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from fire, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure.
Griff_Goodbeard 08-06-05, 11:56 AM	Overall, it probably is more powerful than most of the SNA spells. If your DM automatically allows this spell for all Druids, it could potentially be a problem, although as was pointed out above, spontaneous summoning and Aug Sum are definite boons to SNA. Is a niche spell and as a DM I wouldn't allow a Druid from say, a temperate region to access it. Probably not the answer you were looking for, but it's been my experience that there are a lot of things that can become unbalanced if a DM allows everything from all the splat books for everyone.
The Vorpal Tribble 08-06-05, 01:07 PM	Splat books? Its Frostburn from Wizards. Its an official book here. However, why not allow it in temperate regions? They get snow and ice to. And does this mean in tropical areas I shouldn't be able to summon, say, a wolverine becauses its a temperate/cold climate creature?
Griff_Goodbeard 08-06-05, 02:50 PM	Splat books? Its Frostburn from Wizards. Its an official book here. However, why not allow it in temperate regions? They get snow and ice to. And does this mean in tropical areas I shouldn't be able to summon, say, a wolverine becauses its a temperate/cold climate creature? Perhaps I misspoke when I said splat book, what I meant was supplemental books. The spell we're talking about comes from a book devoted to the perils adventuring in sub-zero climates. I'm not saying "don't allow this spell at all", but that as a DM I would feel within my rights to restrict this spell if the druid in question had lived in a temperate area his whole life. I live in Ohio and if gets pretty cold here in the winter time (we get plenty of snow too ;) ), but the winter in ohio, and living/surviving in the arctic, for example, are two entirely different things. 3.x works on a system of balance, where if sumplement spell X is more powerful them core spell Y, then X can be viewed as overpowered. By and large I think this system of balance is a good thing (I think 3.x is a vast upgrade over the 1st ed. system of handling things.), but sometimes you can balance something by simply restricting it's use or applying simple flavor aspects to it. Why would my Druid, raised in a jugle reigon ever want to cast (or even have access) to this spell besides the slight mechanical advantage? Rereading this entire thread it occurs to me that this answer might only apply to the "why would I ever cast SNA when I could cast CIB" and might not be the type of response you were looking for. I mean if you have access to all spells and have the spell slots, then there really isn't any reason why you wouldn't memorize a couple of CIB's (you can alway's swap 'em out for SNA if that would work better in a given situation). IMO the only reason you wouldn't would be for flavor reasons, and I think that's fine. Whatever works for your campain. This was a bit of a rambling post, and I appoligize if I derailed the discussion of the mechanics of these two spells. :) Good Gaming! Griff
The Vorpal Tribble 08-06-05, 04:14 PM	The spell we're talking about comes from a book devoted to the perils adventuring in sub-zero climates. Well, I don't really think that matters particularly, as I can summon fire elementals in the artic and water elementals in the desert :cool: These ice beings are just another aspect of nature I can call upon is all. However, its spring time currently in my campaign, the morning was almost freezing, which reminded my druid of the winter he had recently gone through. I could easily use that to explain. Why would my Druid, raised in a jungle reigon ever want to cast (or even have access) to this spell besides the slight mechanical advantage? Well, even in jungles you can have tall mountains with snow, or at least frost (argentina and chili for example). I would think even a jungle dwelling druid would in some way be aware that freezing water exists. If nothing else, what more to discomfit beings used to jungle temperatures than something that freezes and chills? ;) But anyways, this druid is from a temperate area and is used to snow in the winter. It may not be artic snow, but cold and ice is cold and ice.
Griff_Goodbeard 08-06-05, 04:53 PM	Well, I don't really think that matters particularly, as I can summon fire elementals in the artic and water elementals in the desert These ice beings are just another aspect of nature I can call upon is all. I just think that calling constructs that happen to be made of ice, it quite a bit different than summoning an elemental, an aspect of one of the primal forces of nature. However, its spring time currently in my campaign, the morning was almost freezing, which reminded my druid of the winter he had recently gone through. I could easily use that to explain. If your DM feels this fits with how he sees Druids in his campain, more power to you. It's not my intention to insinuate that because you play a Druid from a temparate region who accesses these spell, that you're being a munchkin. Far from it. I just see it a little differently in my campain. :) I guess it boils down to the fact that I see Druids (also clerics, and wizards, but I won't go into them ;) ) are more powerful overall than martial classes. How I balance this is by making driuds acountable to nature for their power. When you add up the PHB spell and all the spells in all the supplemental books, druids have access to 100's of spells. IMC I impose "house rule" limitations on spells from suplements that druids (and clerics) have access to. As I said in my above post, I realized that just because this is my vision of how druids should work, doesn't mean that you're campain follows the same belifs. IMC CIB is not overpowered, I've had druids hailing from arctic regions use these spells and they didn't outshine the SNA chain. They're situational useful, but overall didn't break the game the way Shivering Touch did. ;) Good Gaming! Griff