Consecrate Clarification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Consecrate Clarification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pskought
11-21-05, 11:54 AM I have a grammatical interpretation question regarding the 2nd level cleric spell, Consecrate. It reads, in part:

This spell blesses an area with positive energy. Each Charisma check made to turn undead within this area gains a +3 sacred bonus. Every undead creature entering a consecrated area suffers minor disruption, giving it a –1 penalty on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saves. Undead cannot be created within or summoned into a consecrated area.

The bolded phrase - does that read:

a) Anytime a cleric standing in this area makes a turn check, they get a +3 sacred bonus, or
b) Anytime a cleric turns undead who are standing in this area, the cleric gets a +3 sacred bonus?

Thanks!
Coffee
11-21-05, 12:06 PM Both the cleric and the undead need to be in the consecrated area to gain the +3 sacred bonus.
pskought
11-21-05, 12:35 PM Both the cleric and the undead need to be in the consecrated area to gain the +3 sacred bonus.

Can you cite something to support this, or is this your interpretation? I couldn't find anything in the FAQ or using the search feature.

My interpretation is b - gain the bonus when affecting undead in the area, and the reason is that the spell has a range. To me, this indicates that the cleric does not need be in the area of effect to gain the bonus.
Finarin Panjoro
11-21-05, 02:44 PM I rule it the way you do. If the undead are in the consecrated or desecrated area anyone attempting to affect them takes the bonus or penalty regardless of where they are standing. I reason that the undead recieve the spell penalty/bonus to attack, damage, and saves only when they are within the area so they would also only recieve the turning benefits/penalties when they are in the area.
Vedic Cold
11-21-05, 03:35 PM My interpretation would go towards option B of the OP's two choices.
pskought
11-21-05, 04:40 PM Awesome, thanks y'all.
SALDAR
11-21-05, 10:34 PM I have a grammatical interpretation question regarding the 2nd level cleric spell, Consecrate. It reads, in part:

This spell blesses an area with positive energy. Each Charisma check made to turn undead within this area gains a +3 sacred bonus. Every undead creature entering a consecrated area suffers minor disruption, giving it a –1 penalty on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saves. Undead cannot be created within or summoned into a consecrated area.

The bolded phrase - does that read:

a) Anytime a cleric standing in this area makes a turn check, they get a +3 sacred bonus, or
b) Anytime a cleric turns undead who are standing in this area, the cleric gets a +3 sacred bonus?

Thanks!
I would go with option A. Any Chr check made within the area.
cwslyclgh
11-21-05, 11:06 PM I on the other hand would go with B.

the bonus applies when the check is made against undead within this area...
GreyGriffin
11-21-05, 11:35 PM I would go with A, for thematic reasons. After all, if the undead have already broken into the consecrated ground, the last stand's probably already over.
SALDAR
11-22-05, 12:45 AM I on the other hand would go with B.

the bonus applies when the check is made against undead within this area...
Consecrate is an area effect spell. If you are not in the area then you are not affected by it and would not gain the bonus. The spell's description states how undead are affected by the spell when they are within its area of effect. If it were the undead within the area being affected then it would be listed as a penalty to their turn resistance and not a bonus too the person making the turn undead check.
cwslyclgh
11-22-05, 01:31 AM a "penalty to turn resistance" has a much different (and greater effect) then a simple +3 to the turning check, a penalty to turn resistance would mean that the undead in question are turned as if they had a lower HD which would have no effect at all on the turn check (other then possibly allowing thme to be turned on a worse check) but would affect turning damage, something much different then saying if an undead creature is affected by this spell (by being in the area) then anybody who is trying to turn them gets a +3 to turn check.

it basicaly depends on how you choose to read the sentance:

Your way: if you are inside the area of the consecrate you get +3... (which ignoreshow the sentance in question is actually structured, but that is beside the point)...

My way: if undead are inside the area then anybody who tries to turn them gets +3...

If you are not in the area then you are not affected by it and would not gain the bonus. that is like saying that fog cloud is an area of effect spell, if you are not in the area of effect you can not gain concealment from the fog cloud. Or that a hypothetical spell which caused all creatures in a 20 foot spread to be helpless for 1 round/level (or something to that effect) would not grant a person standing beyond the area of the spell to attack an adjacent person who is within the area of the spell and helpless with a +4 bonus to the attack roll.

ie. although the mechanics translate into a bonus for the turning check, it is realy a penalty for the undead in the area. (like the +4 to hit a helpless opponent, or the fact that you have a 50% miss chance against an archer in or on the other side of the fog cloud spell even if you are not inside of it).
SALDAR
11-22-05, 02:27 AM Your way: if you are inside the area of the consecrate you get +3... (which ignoreshow the sentance in question is actually structured, but that is beside the point)...
The sentence in question:
"Each Charisma check made to turn undead within this area gains a +3 sacred bonus."

Turn undead is a class feature of good or neutral clerics and paladins and is an attack action. The sentence is not referring to "undead within the area", it is referring to making a "turn undead" attempt within the area. It can be reworded this way:
Each Charisma check made within this area to turn undead gains a +3 sacred bonus.

Or that a hypothetical spell which caused all creatures in a 20 foot spread to be helpless for 1 round/level (or something to that effect) would not grant a person standing beyond the area of the spell to attack an adjacent person who is within the area of the spell and helpless with a +4 bonus to the attack roll.
The attacker gets the bonus not because he was affected by the spell and this made him better, he gets the bonus because the spell made those within the area helpless. Only those within the area are affected.

Consecrate lists specifically how undead within its area are affected and it does not include weakening them against turn attempts. It strengthens those turn undead attempts made within its area. Consecrate is an emanation and emanations only affect those caught in the area. See Burst, Emanation, or Spread, PHB pg 175.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pskought 11-21-05, 11:54 AM	I have a grammatical interpretation question regarding the 2nd level cleric spell, Consecrate. It reads, in part: This spell blesses an area with positive energy. Each Charisma check made to turn undead within this area gains a +3 sacred bonus. Every undead creature entering a consecrated area suffers minor disruption, giving it a –1 penalty on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saves. Undead cannot be created within or summoned into a consecrated area. The bolded phrase - does that read: a) Anytime a cleric standing in this area makes a turn check, they get a +3 sacred bonus, or b) Anytime a cleric turns undead who are standing in this area, the cleric gets a +3 sacred bonus? Thanks!
Coffee 11-21-05, 12:06 PM	Both the cleric and the undead need to be in the consecrated area to gain the +3 sacred bonus.
pskought 11-21-05, 12:35 PM	Both the cleric and the undead need to be in the consecrated area to gain the +3 sacred bonus. Can you cite something to support this, or is this your interpretation? I couldn't find anything in the FAQ or using the search feature. My interpretation is b - gain the bonus when affecting undead in the area, and the reason is that the spell has a range. To me, this indicates that the cleric does not need be in the area of effect to gain the bonus.
Finarin Panjoro 11-21-05, 02:44 PM	I rule it the way you do. If the undead are in the consecrated or desecrated area anyone attempting to affect them takes the bonus or penalty regardless of where they are standing. I reason that the undead recieve the spell penalty/bonus to attack, damage, and saves only when they are within the area so they would also only recieve the turning benefits/penalties when they are in the area.
Vedic Cold 11-21-05, 03:35 PM	My interpretation would go towards option B of the OP's two choices.
pskought 11-21-05, 04:40 PM	Awesome, thanks y'all.
SALDAR 11-21-05, 10:34 PM	I have a grammatical interpretation question regarding the 2nd level cleric spell, Consecrate. It reads, in part: This spell blesses an area with positive energy. Each Charisma check made to turn undead within this area gains a +3 sacred bonus. Every undead creature entering a consecrated area suffers minor disruption, giving it a –1 penalty on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saves. Undead cannot be created within or summoned into a consecrated area. The bolded phrase - does that read: a) Anytime a cleric standing in this area makes a turn check, they get a +3 sacred bonus, or b) Anytime a cleric turns undead who are standing in this area, the cleric gets a +3 sacred bonus? Thanks! I would go with option A. Any Chr check made within the area.
cwslyclgh 11-21-05, 11:06 PM	I on the other hand would go with B. the bonus applies when the check is made against undead within this area...
GreyGriffin 11-21-05, 11:35 PM	I would go with A, for thematic reasons. After all, if the undead have already broken into the consecrated ground, the last stand's probably already over.
SALDAR 11-22-05, 12:45 AM	I on the other hand would go with B. the bonus applies when the check is made against undead within this area... Consecrate is an area effect spell. If you are not in the area then you are not affected by it and would not gain the bonus. The spell's description states how undead are affected by the spell when they are within its area of effect. If it were the undead within the area being affected then it would be listed as a penalty to their turn resistance and not a bonus too the person making the turn undead check.
cwslyclgh 11-22-05, 01:31 AM	a "penalty to turn resistance" has a much different (and greater effect) then a simple +3 to the turning check, a penalty to turn resistance would mean that the undead in question are turned as if they had a lower HD which would have no effect at all on the turn check (other then possibly allowing thme to be turned on a worse check) but would affect turning damage, something much different then saying if an undead creature is affected by this spell (by being in the area) then anybody who is trying to turn them gets a +3 to turn check. it basicaly depends on how you choose to read the sentance: Your way: if you are inside the area of the consecrate you get +3... (which ignoreshow the sentance in question is actually structured, but that is beside the point)... My way: if undead are inside the area then anybody who tries to turn them gets +3... If you are not in the area then you are not affected by it and would not gain the bonus. that is like saying that fog cloud is an area of effect spell, if you are not in the area of effect you can not gain concealment from the fog cloud. Or that a hypothetical spell which caused all creatures in a 20 foot spread to be helpless for 1 round/level (or something to that effect) would not grant a person standing beyond the area of the spell to attack an adjacent person who is within the area of the spell and helpless with a +4 bonus to the attack roll. ie. although the mechanics translate into a bonus for the turning check, it is realy a penalty for the undead in the area. (like the +4 to hit a helpless opponent, or the fact that you have a 50% miss chance against an archer in or on the other side of the fog cloud spell even if you are not inside of it).
SALDAR 11-22-05, 02:27 AM	Your way: if you are inside the area of the consecrate you get +3... (which ignoreshow the sentance in question is actually structured, but that is beside the point)... The sentence in question: "Each Charisma check made to turn undead within this area gains a +3 sacred bonus." Turn undead is a class feature of good or neutral clerics and paladins and is an attack action. The sentence is not referring to "undead within the area", it is referring to making a "turn undead" attempt within the area. It can be reworded this way: Each Charisma check made within this area to turn undead gains a +3 sacred bonus. Or that a hypothetical spell which caused all creatures in a 20 foot spread to be helpless for 1 round/level (or something to that effect) would not grant a person standing beyond the area of the spell to attack an adjacent person who is within the area of the spell and helpless with a +4 bonus to the attack roll. The attacker gets the bonus not because he was affected by the spell and this made him better, he gets the bonus because the spell made those within the area helpless. Only those within the area are affected. Consecrate lists specifically how undead within its area are affected and it does not include weakening them against turn attempts. It strengthens those turn undead attempts made within its area. Consecrate is an emanation and emanations only affect those caught in the area. See Burst, Emanation, or Spread, PHB pg 175.