Consequences of Suggestion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Consequences of Suggestion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ArcWF
12-08-05, 02:16 PM So, I'm confused about just what creatures know when someone casts Suggestion on them. In particular, if my wizard character is "undercover", and amongst enemies who believe him to be part of their group, will using Suggestion on one of them break my cover?

I know that in the "Rules of the Game", it states that a character who fails a save is not aware that he has been hit by a spell. But what if he actually saw the caster whip out the material components, wave his hands in somatic gestures, and speak some strange incantation? Does the target of the suggestion have a memory of that?

For example: let's assume my Suggestion is "Take me to the hidden vault so that I can verify that all of the protective wards are functioning." Now, assuming my cover (a trusted member of the group) is intact, this would seem like a reasonable suggestion. However, the moment the target sees me waving my hands and chanting and pulling snake tongues out of my bag, he's going to know something is up. Does this alter the difficulty of the save? Even if he fails the save and starts taking my toward the vault, what's to stop him from telling the first guard he sees, "I am taking this man to the vault because he magically compelled me to do so. You should kill him." ???

Assuming that, in the above example, the target of the suggestion would not do this, then what about after the task is completed? Once we've reached the vault, does he suddenly think "Wait, it makes no sense for me to have done that. No one is ever allowed near the vault! I must have been enchanted!" Or does what he did seem natural to him, forever?
tarkin
12-08-05, 02:26 PM You do not forget you saw someone cast a spell.

The proper technique is.

Hm. Wait a second, let me cast a protection from scrying spell.

Cast Suggestion: Take me to the vault so that I can verify that the protections are good.

----------
If they have spellcraft, that won't work. Instead you need to prevent them from using that spellcraft. Try casting a Silent version of the spell.

Note, Materail components must be manipulated, not visible. You can use them behind your back, in your pocket, whatever.
Keenath
12-08-05, 02:36 PM If they have spellcraft, that won't work. Instead you need to prevent them from using that spellcraft. Try casting a Silent version of the spell.

Note, Materail components must be manipulated, not visible. You can use them behind your back, in your pocket, whatever.
Still and Silent are your friends in a situation like this. Or you could be a bard; bardic music Suggestion is spell like, and thus has no components (other than the, y'know, music, which can easily seem innocent, or take Subsonics).
Nom
12-08-05, 07:30 PM Knowing that the character cast suggestion on you won't void or mitigate the effect. It's an Enchantment (Compulsion) - it makes the target think it wants to obey the request. It's quite possible that the target subconsciously knows that what it is doing isn't sensible, but does it anyway.

charm spells are similar. Having the target sees you casting charm person won't void the charm, the target will rationalise it away.

The interesting thing is what happens afterwards. Neither spell affects memories. Charm works by altering the way your normal thinking works - you still behave "normally" according to your altered perspective. Compulsion works by overriding it - you behave abnormally. When the spell wears off, a compelled subject is going to quickly come to the conclusion that someone - most likely you - magically forced them to perform the action. In contrast, a charmed person will just remember that he found you really likeable, which may or may not seem unusual. In either case, remembering that you cast an Enchantment spell will help the subject more quickly realise what has happened - it won't seem unusual "at the time", but likely will in retrospect.
ArcWF
12-09-05, 12:09 AM What about the first scenario? If the target sees me casting and, let's say even recognizes the spell being cast, but fails his save, will he note to others that he is being magically compelled?
Necrowarr
12-09-05, 12:47 AM As my title states, it really depends on many factors such as creature,alignment,loyalty etc.If you dont care about that stuff than i'd go with he'd be screaming it around the building or whatever setting you are in
Nom
12-09-05, 01:04 AM What about the first scenario? If the target sees me casting and, let's say even recognizes the spell being cast, but fails his save, will he note to others that he is being magically compelled?No. It's not a very sensible magic compulsion if you knowing about it allows you to void it. Some DM's might wish to rule differently, but the spell already specifies a Will saving throw. I'm not going to allow a character to use a Spellcraft check to negate their failed saving throw.
Beppo
12-09-05, 05:10 AM I agree with Nom, but afterwards he will know what happened.

The same with every other person who was enchanted and ever saw you casting a spell - I don't think you have to be that bright, just a bit paranoid or experienced.

Keep in mind that Suggestion only has two casting components: verbal and some material focus.
The verbal thing is fulfilled with wording your suggestion so he won't likely notice it.

So your only problem is to divert his attraction from the material focus (a snake tongue if I remember correctly).
Just stay right next to him while both of you are facing something interesting - chances are good that he won't notice the small thing in your hand.
ArcWF
12-09-05, 01:38 PM I agree with Nom, but afterwards he will know what happened.

The same with every other person who was enchanted and ever saw you casting a spell - I don't think you have to be that bright, just a bit paranoid or experienced.

Keep in mind that Suggestion only has two casting components: verbal and some material focus.
The verbal thing is fulfilled with wording your suggestion so he won't likely notice it.

So your only problem is to divert his attraction from the material focus (a snake tongue if I remember correctly).
Just stay right next to him while both of you are facing something interesting - chances are good that he won't notice the small thing in your hand.

Ah, I didn't realize the verbal component was the actual suggesting. That does make it easier. I'll just palm a snake tongue as I walk around :)

Thanks for the replies everybody. Tonight is actually the night where this comes into play (the vault example was made up, but in truth, I am a Warforged in an Eberron game, about to infiltrate a Lord of Blades camp).
epifreak
12-09-05, 02:27 PM Ah, I didn't realize the verbal component was the actual suggesting. That does make it easier. I'll just palm a snake tongue as I walk around :)

Thanks for the replies everybody. Tonight is actually the night where this comes into play (the vault example was made up, but in truth, I am a Warforged in an Eberron game, about to infiltrate a Lord of Blades camp).

Or you could pick up the eschew materials feat. I'm pretty sure the snake tongue doesn't have an appreciable cost.
Nodles
12-12-05, 09:02 AM A bit off-topic, but the 1st level spell hyptnotize specifically says a character that failed its save does not remember you enspelled it.

Unfortunately, its a full round action to cast it, it only allows you to make a short and reasonable request from a character as if he was two steps more friendly toward you (only in regards to the request), and it only affects 2d4 hds. I guess researching a higher level version would be feasible.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArcWF 12-08-05, 02:16 PM	So, I'm confused about just what creatures know when someone casts Suggestion on them. In particular, if my wizard character is "undercover", and amongst enemies who believe him to be part of their group, will using Suggestion on one of them break my cover? I know that in the "Rules of the Game", it states that a character who fails a save is not aware that he has been hit by a spell. But what if he actually saw the caster whip out the material components, wave his hands in somatic gestures, and speak some strange incantation? Does the target of the suggestion have a memory of that? For example: let's assume my Suggestion is "Take me to the hidden vault so that I can verify that all of the protective wards are functioning." Now, assuming my cover (a trusted member of the group) is intact, this would seem like a reasonable suggestion. However, the moment the target sees me waving my hands and chanting and pulling snake tongues out of my bag, he's going to know something is up. Does this alter the difficulty of the save? Even if he fails the save and starts taking my toward the vault, what's to stop him from telling the first guard he sees, "I am taking this man to the vault because he magically compelled me to do so. You should kill him." ??? Assuming that, in the above example, the target of the suggestion would not do this, then what about after the task is completed? Once we've reached the vault, does he suddenly think "Wait, it makes no sense for me to have done that. No one is ever allowed near the vault! I must have been enchanted!" Or does what he did seem natural to him, forever?
tarkin 12-08-05, 02:26 PM	You do not forget you saw someone cast a spell. The proper technique is. Hm. Wait a second, let me cast a protection from scrying spell. Cast Suggestion: Take me to the vault so that I can verify that the protections are good. ---------- If they have spellcraft, that won't work. Instead you need to prevent them from using that spellcraft. Try casting a Silent version of the spell. Note, Materail components must be manipulated, not visible. You can use them behind your back, in your pocket, whatever.
Keenath 12-08-05, 02:36 PM	If they have spellcraft, that won't work. Instead you need to prevent them from using that spellcraft. Try casting a Silent version of the spell. Note, Materail components must be manipulated, not visible. You can use them behind your back, in your pocket, whatever. Still and Silent are your friends in a situation like this. Or you could be a bard; bardic music Suggestion is spell like, and thus has no components (other than the, y'know, music, which can easily seem innocent, or take Subsonics).
Nom 12-08-05, 07:30 PM	Knowing that the character cast suggestion on you won't void or mitigate the effect. It's an Enchantment (Compulsion) - it makes the target think it wants to obey the request. It's quite possible that the target subconsciously knows that what it is doing isn't sensible, but does it anyway. charm spells are similar. Having the target sees you casting charm person won't void the charm, the target will rationalise it away. The interesting thing is what happens afterwards. Neither spell affects memories. Charm works by altering the way your normal thinking works - you still behave "normally" according to your altered perspective. Compulsion works by overriding it - you behave abnormally. When the spell wears off, a compelled subject is going to quickly come to the conclusion that someone - most likely you - magically forced them to perform the action. In contrast, a charmed person will just remember that he found you really likeable, which may or may not seem unusual. In either case, remembering that you cast an Enchantment spell will help the subject more quickly realise what has happened - it won't seem unusual "at the time", but likely will in retrospect.
ArcWF 12-09-05, 12:09 AM	What about the first scenario? If the target sees me casting and, let's say even recognizes the spell being cast, but fails his save, will he note to others that he is being magically compelled?
Necrowarr 12-09-05, 12:47 AM	As my title states, it really depends on many factors such as creature,alignment,loyalty etc.If you dont care about that stuff than i'd go with he'd be screaming it around the building or whatever setting you are in
Nom 12-09-05, 01:04 AM	What about the first scenario? If the target sees me casting and, let's say even recognizes the spell being cast, but fails his save, will he note to others that he is being magically compelled?No. It's not a very sensible magic compulsion if you knowing about it allows you to void it. Some DM's might wish to rule differently, but the spell already specifies a Will saving throw. I'm not going to allow a character to use a Spellcraft check to negate their failed saving throw.
Beppo 12-09-05, 05:10 AM	I agree with Nom, but afterwards he will know what happened. The same with every other person who was enchanted and ever saw you casting a spell - I don't think you have to be that bright, just a bit paranoid or experienced. Keep in mind that Suggestion only has two casting components: verbal and some material focus. The verbal thing is fulfilled with wording your suggestion so he won't likely notice it. So your only problem is to divert his attraction from the material focus (a snake tongue if I remember correctly). Just stay right next to him while both of you are facing something interesting - chances are good that he won't notice the small thing in your hand.
ArcWF 12-09-05, 01:38 PM	I agree with Nom, but afterwards he will know what happened. The same with every other person who was enchanted and ever saw you casting a spell - I don't think you have to be that bright, just a bit paranoid or experienced. Keep in mind that Suggestion only has two casting components: verbal and some material focus. The verbal thing is fulfilled with wording your suggestion so he won't likely notice it. So your only problem is to divert his attraction from the material focus (a snake tongue if I remember correctly). Just stay right next to him while both of you are facing something interesting - chances are good that he won't notice the small thing in your hand. Ah, I didn't realize the verbal component was the actual suggesting. That does make it easier. I'll just palm a snake tongue as I walk around :) Thanks for the replies everybody. Tonight is actually the night where this comes into play (the vault example was made up, but in truth, I am a Warforged in an Eberron game, about to infiltrate a Lord of Blades camp).
epifreak 12-09-05, 02:27 PM	Ah, I didn't realize the verbal component was the actual suggesting. That does make it easier. I'll just palm a snake tongue as I walk around :) Thanks for the replies everybody. Tonight is actually the night where this comes into play (the vault example was made up, but in truth, I am a Warforged in an Eberron game, about to infiltrate a Lord of Blades camp). Or you could pick up the eschew materials feat. I'm pretty sure the snake tongue doesn't have an appreciable cost.
Nodles 12-12-05, 09:02 AM	A bit off-topic, but the 1st level spell hyptnotize specifically says a character that failed its save does not remember you enspelled it. Unfortunately, its a full round action to cast it, it only allows you to make a short and reasonable request from a character as if he was two steps more friendly toward you (only in regards to the request), and it only affects 2d4 hds. I guess researching a higher level version would be feasible.