Conterspell and Range [Archive] - Wizards Community

Conterspell and Range [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Damned slayer
10-14-06, 04:34 PM Do you need to be in the range or just see the spell being cast

I have in mind words of*
range is 30ft and area 40ft
so could you be taken in range without being able to conterspell???
same could go with lots of spells
I was just wondering if you had to be in ur range to conterspell
like lvl10mage cast magic missile at the lvl 1
at 25ft conter no prob
at 75ft can mage lvl1 conter since he's way out of range to target the other spell caster since I guess you actually "target his spell"

is there anything RAW on this
or give me your opinions plz
Thiez
10-14-06, 04:45 PM I don't want to be rude here, but would you mind rephrasing everything between the first and the second last line? I read it, I read it again, and I still have no clue what you are trying to say :D

Answer to question on first line: I can't find any line in the PHB that specifically mentions you have to be within range, but I think it is save to assume that you do [have to be in range].
Vegepygmy
10-14-06, 05:02 PM at 75ft can mage lvl1 conter since he's way out of range to target the other spell caster since I guess you actually "target his spell"No, you don't. You target him.

"To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell." PHB, page 170.
Nom
10-14-06, 07:01 PM You have to be in range of the target of the counterspell (PH pg 170), which is the opposing caster.

That said, I play that (1) you can be in range of either the caster or the target of the spell being countered and (2) countering a spell doesn't target the caster, and thus isn't an "attack".
Father Dale
10-15-06, 01:51 PM I understand your question, and I don't think the rules directly address it.

Yes, you must be "in range" of the caster in order to counterspell his spell. Range would be based on the spell being cast.

But what if the range of the spell is dependent on the caster level the spell is being cast at (as most are), and what if the caster and the counterspeller have different caster levels?

For example, lets say a 10th lvl wizard is casting Ray of Enfeeblement at your friend, and you as a 6th lvl caster want to counterspell it. And lets say you are readied to counterspell it. And lets say you even have it prepared so you can use your own Ray of enfeeblement to counterspell it.

And lets say you are 45 ft from the caster.

Now, the range of your Ray of Enfeeblement is 40ft since its close range. But for the other wizard his range is 50ft.

So, in this case you are within range of his spell that you are wanting to counter, but hes not within range of your own spell that you are going to use to counter.

So, can you counter the spell or not?

I don't think the rules are clear on this one. I see two ways of dealing with it.

One, the target of the counterspell must be within range of the counterspeller's spell. i.e. the 6th lvl wizard above couldn't counterspell in that situation since the 10th lvl wizard is farther than 40 ft away. This gives an advantage to the more powerful casters over the weaker casters, and that makes sense. This also makes it dependent upon the counterspeller, and makes it easier to determine since the DM won't have to compare caster levels and calculate ranges and such; just figure the range of the counterspeller's spell and go with that. I also think this way coincides with the rules more, especially considering how using dispel magic to counterspell would interact.

Two, so long as the counterspeller is within range of the spell being cast or his own spell then he can counterspell it. i.e. the 6th lvl wizard above could counterspell the spell because hes in range of the spell being cast. This would be reasonable in that its hard enough, and rare enough, that counterspelling is done that there seems to be little point to make it even more difficult.

Also remember that if Dispel Magic is used to counterspell, then it would be the range of dispell magic and not the spell being cast. (Which is very useful for countering personal or touch range spells that normally can't be countered due to range limitations.)

Hope this all helps.
ZomB
10-15-06, 02:09 PM I have in mind words of*
range is 30ft and area 40ft
so could you be taken in range without being able to conterspell???
If you mean by that: a spell with range 30ft but with an effect radius of 20ft, thereby extending the spell range to 50ft? That isn't how magic range works. None of the spell's effects can extend beyond the spell's range. Which can mean odd things like you get half a fireball. See the Rules of the Game article:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040817a
Vegepygmy
10-15-06, 03:32 PM Now, the range of your Ray of Enfeeblement is 40ft since its close range. But for the other wizard his range is 50ft.

So, in this case you are within range of his spell that you are wanting to counter, but hes not within range of your own spell that you are going to use to counter.

So, can you counter the spell or not?

I don't think the rules are clear on this one.I don't know how you can conclude that the rules are not clear on this matter. The enemy caster is your target. He is not within range of your spell. Therefore, you cannot counter his spell with your spell.

Two, so long as the counterspeller is within range of the spell being cast or his own spell then he can counterspell it. i.e. the 6th lvl wizard above could counterspell the spell because hes in range of the spell being cast.That would only make sense if, when counterspelling, you targeted the spell to be countered instead of the caster. We know that isn't how it works, so this cannot be correct.

It's fine if that's how a DM prefers to do things, but the rules are certainly clear that it doesn't (officially) work this way.

Also remember that if Dispel Magic is used to counterspell, then it would be the range of dispell magic and not the spell being cast. (Which is very useful for countering personal or touch range spells that normally can't be countered due to range limitations.)That is very extremely true. :)
Damned slayer
10-15-06, 04:54 PM If you mean by that: a spell with range 30ft but with an effect radius of 20ft, thereby extending the spell range to 50ft? That isn't how magic range works. None of the spell's effects can extend beyond the spell's range. Which can mean odd things like you get half a fireball. See the Rules of the Game article:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040817a

Just check the spell blasphemy, holy word, dictum or word of chaos and see for yourself that it is a spread centered on you with a range of 30ft and a radius of 40ft
that is seeing this that made me come up with the conterspell and range...
Thiez
10-15-06, 05:00 PM I believe the errata'd those spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Damned slayer 10-14-06, 04:34 PM	Do you need to be in the range or just see the spell being cast I have in mind words of* range is 30ft and area 40ft so could you be taken in range without being able to conterspell??? same could go with lots of spells I was just wondering if you had to be in ur range to conterspell like lvl10mage cast magic missile at the lvl 1 at 25ft conter no prob at 75ft can mage lvl1 conter since he's way out of range to target the other spell caster since I guess you actually "target his spell" is there anything RAW on this or give me your opinions plz
Thiez 10-14-06, 04:45 PM	I don't want to be rude here, but would you mind rephrasing everything between the first and the second last line? I read it, I read it again, and I still have no clue what you are trying to say :D Answer to question on first line: I can't find any line in the PHB that specifically mentions you have to be within range, but I think it is save to assume that you do [have to be in range].
Vegepygmy 10-14-06, 05:02 PM	at 75ft can mage lvl1 conter since he's way out of range to target the other spell caster since I guess you actually "target his spell"No, you don't. You target him. "To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell." PHB, page 170.
Nom 10-14-06, 07:01 PM	You have to be in range of the target of the counterspell (PH pg 170), which is the opposing caster. That said, I play that (1) you can be in range of either the caster or the target of the spell being countered and (2) countering a spell doesn't target the caster, and thus isn't an "attack".
Father Dale 10-15-06, 01:51 PM	I understand your question, and I don't think the rules directly address it. Yes, you must be "in range" of the caster in order to counterspell his spell. Range would be based on the spell being cast. But what if the range of the spell is dependent on the caster level the spell is being cast at (as most are), and what if the caster and the counterspeller have different caster levels? For example, lets say a 10th lvl wizard is casting Ray of Enfeeblement at your friend, and you as a 6th lvl caster want to counterspell it. And lets say you are readied to counterspell it. And lets say you even have it prepared so you can use your own Ray of enfeeblement to counterspell it. And lets say you are 45 ft from the caster. Now, the range of your Ray of Enfeeblement is 40ft since its close range. But for the other wizard his range is 50ft. So, in this case you are within range of his spell that you are wanting to counter, but hes not within range of your own spell that you are going to use to counter. So, can you counter the spell or not? I don't think the rules are clear on this one. I see two ways of dealing with it. One, the target of the counterspell must be within range of the counterspeller's spell. i.e. the 6th lvl wizard above couldn't counterspell in that situation since the 10th lvl wizard is farther than 40 ft away. This gives an advantage to the more powerful casters over the weaker casters, and that makes sense. This also makes it dependent upon the counterspeller, and makes it easier to determine since the DM won't have to compare caster levels and calculate ranges and such; just figure the range of the counterspeller's spell and go with that. I also think this way coincides with the rules more, especially considering how using dispel magic to counterspell would interact. Two, so long as the counterspeller is within range of the spell being cast or his own spell then he can counterspell it. i.e. the 6th lvl wizard above could counterspell the spell because hes in range of the spell being cast. This would be reasonable in that its hard enough, and rare enough, that counterspelling is done that there seems to be little point to make it even more difficult. Also remember that if Dispel Magic is used to counterspell, then it would be the range of dispell magic and not the spell being cast. (Which is very useful for countering personal or touch range spells that normally can't be countered due to range limitations.) Hope this all helps.
ZomB 10-15-06, 02:09 PM	I have in mind words of* range is 30ft and area 40ft so could you be taken in range without being able to conterspell??? If you mean by that: a spell with range 30ft but with an effect radius of 20ft, thereby extending the spell range to 50ft? That isn't how magic range works. None of the spell's effects can extend beyond the spell's range. Which can mean odd things like you get half a fireball. See the Rules of the Game article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040817a
Vegepygmy 10-15-06, 03:32 PM	Now, the range of your Ray of Enfeeblement is 40ft since its close range. But for the other wizard his range is 50ft. So, in this case you are within range of his spell that you are wanting to counter, but hes not within range of your own spell that you are going to use to counter. So, can you counter the spell or not? I don't think the rules are clear on this one.I don't know how you can conclude that the rules are not clear on this matter. The enemy caster is your target. He is not within range of your spell. Therefore, you cannot counter his spell with your spell. Two, so long as the counterspeller is within range of the spell being cast or his own spell then he can counterspell it. i.e. the 6th lvl wizard above could counterspell the spell because hes in range of the spell being cast.That would only make sense if, when counterspelling, you targeted the spell to be countered instead of the caster. We know that isn't how it works, so this cannot be correct. It's fine if that's how a DM prefers to do things, but the rules are certainly clear that it doesn't (officially) work this way. Also remember that if Dispel Magic is used to counterspell, then it would be the range of dispell magic and not the spell being cast. (Which is very useful for countering personal or touch range spells that normally can't be countered due to range limitations.)That is very extremely true. :)
Damned slayer 10-15-06, 04:54 PM	If you mean by that: a spell with range 30ft but with an effect radius of 20ft, thereby extending the spell range to 50ft? That isn't how magic range works. None of the spell's effects can extend beyond the spell's range. Which can mean odd things like you get half a fireball. See the Rules of the Game article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040817a Just check the spell blasphemy, holy word, dictum or word of chaos and see for yourself that it is a spread centered on you with a range of 30ft and a radius of 40ft that is seeing this that made me come up with the conterspell and range...
Thiez 10-15-06, 05:00 PM	I believe the errata'd those spells.