Contingency (rules problems) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Contingency (rules problems) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Your Immortal DM
09-21-04, 10:22 AM I have an epic game going and have several spellcasters relying on contingency, chain contingency, Elminster’s evasion, Simbul's spell trigger, and various contingent spells created via Craft Contingent Spell feat from UE.

Questions:
1) Is there any official rulings on the activating “conditions” for [i]contingency? (it seems sort of omnipotent at current)
2) What are the limits of contingency’s activating “conditions” if any? (please provide rules + rationale to support)
3) Would it be reasonable to use magic mouth as a general guide to contingency’s activating “conditions”? (since magic mouth is more clearly defined)

Your Immortal DM
Seeker95
09-21-04, 09:17 PM You might want to try this on the epic boards as well.

1&2: No. No official rulings on defining requirements.
3: Sounds reasonable.

In my campaign, I require that contingency be "an event" that must occur.
I treat it very much like a "readied action".
Huan
09-21-04, 10:35 PM I agree with Seeker.
redraven
09-22-04, 12:32 PM I posted a similar thread some time ago. The conclusions:

1) It is omnipotent according to the official rules. See the Thaumaturgist's description in the DMG, under their Contingent Conjuration spell ability. One of the conditions listed there is "If/When the king falls ill," and there would be absolutely no way your character would have that information in the middle of adventuring. This means, among other things, the spell becomes an infallible divination spell if you know the specifics about a given situation (e.g. set a Contingent Mage Armor to go off "when Duke Vox leaves his castle" and you will be 100% certain that Duke Vox left the castle even if he Sequestered himself and a retainer Plane Shifted his body out of there while a body double remained behind).

2) There are no official limits beyond what is in the spell description; see above.

3) No, unless you houserule a 6th-level spell to be no "smarter" than a 1st-level illusion. Feel free to do as you like.

I also treat Contingency as a readied action the majority of the time, but also allow PCs to interrupt actions when a Contingency goes off (i.e. receiving Heal when they are reduced to 1 HP if that was the trigger, even if not all of the damage has been assigned yet).

-Red Raven
tarkin
09-22-04, 06:23 PM It is totally up to the DM.

I generally rule that aside from things listed in the book, the Contigency spell knows what you know, (or would know if you were awake and capable of knowing) and nothing more.
Loren Pechtel
09-23-04, 12:48 AM It is totally up to the DM.

I generally rule that aside from things listed in the book, the Contigency spell knows what you know, (or would know if you were awake and capable of knowing) and nothing more.

Not quite. It's going to react to the bolt about to hit you in the back even if you don't see it, etc.

I give it the knowledge you would have if you had all around vision and plenty of time to contemplate the situation. (In other words, anything you could get with a take 20.)
The Simbul
09-23-04, 01:25 AM Given that Contingency effects can only unleash spells upon you, one would Imagine that the proscribed conditions be those that you are aware of, or otherwise would be aware of despite any current conditions affecting you (i.e. blind, unconscious, etc).

In general there are several other ways to put thorns in the sides of a player who abuses Contingency effects, namely the following:

1) Literal intepretations of the rules as written:

Chain Contingency is part of a Spell Chain from the base spell Contingency. The greater spells in a spell chain function exactly like the lesser ones except for one or two minor details and a higher spell level. You are only allowed one Contingency spell upon your person at one time. The fact that Chain Contingency duplicates the same caveat, by duplicating all features of the base spell, is more than enough reason to assert that you cannot have both spells active at the same time. You cannot benefit from Greater Spell Immunity and Spell Immunity simltaneously, thus there is little reason why another spell chain in the 3.5 rules should be exempt from the same common sense restriction.

In fact, you could even rule that Elminster's Evasion is also a part of the Contingency spell chain, if nothing else, for the fact that the school of magic, casting times, and even the material and focus components are precise duplicates of each other, not to mention the fact that it specifically states it is a variant of contingency, rather than a spell that simply unleashes other spells in a manner smiliar to Contingency (like the Simbul's Spell Trigger).

The only contingency effect that wouldnt have a true "set limitation" would be the Simbul's Spell Trigger, although one will find their 9th level spell slots and hitpoints will be running out rather quickly...not to mention that the spell's duration is only 10 MINUTES per level...which is hardly long enough to make use of contingencies for the unexpected emergency, unless you plan to renew the spell (along with all spells stored within it) every 1-5 hours.

2) An innocent little spell called Dispel Magic:

All spells with Contingency effects, as well as all contingent spells created by the Craft Contingent Spell feat, are all vulnerable to dispel magic, and in the case of the crafted ones, they are not even true magic items and are not supressed for 1d4 rounds but are simply destroyed as if they were a standard spell (nice way to burn some XP huh?).

3) An innocent little spell called Shatter:

Contingency
Focus: A statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.

Chain Contingency
Focus: A statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.

Elminster's Evasion
Focus: A statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.

Simbul's Spell Trigger
Focus: A diamond with a minimum value of 1,500gp.

A single area-effect Shatter spell should suffice to destroy all of the contingency-class Focus components carried by given character at any one time. Focus items are not magic items, and of all of the above spells, only the Spell Trigger is vague about whether or not the focus is necessary to trigger the stored spells, although logic would suggest this is in fact the case.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Your Immortal DM 09-21-04, 10:22 AM	I have an epic game going and have several spellcasters relying on contingency, chain contingency, Elminster’s evasion, Simbul's spell trigger, and various contingent spells created via Craft Contingent Spell feat from UE. Questions: 1) Is there any official rulings on the activating “conditions” for [i]contingency? (it seems sort of omnipotent at current) 2) What are the limits of contingency’s activating “conditions” if any? (please provide rules + rationale to support) 3) Would it be reasonable to use magic mouth as a general guide to contingency’s activating “conditions”? (since magic mouth is more clearly defined) Your Immortal DM
Seeker95 09-21-04, 09:17 PM	You might want to try this on the epic boards as well. 1&2: No. No official rulings on defining requirements. 3: Sounds reasonable. In my campaign, I require that contingency be "an event" that must occur. I treat it very much like a "readied action".
Huan 09-21-04, 10:35 PM	I agree with Seeker.
redraven 09-22-04, 12:32 PM	I posted a similar thread some time ago. The conclusions: 1) It is omnipotent according to the official rules. See the Thaumaturgist's description in the DMG, under their Contingent Conjuration spell ability. One of the conditions listed there is "If/When the king falls ill," and there would be absolutely no way your character would have that information in the middle of adventuring. This means, among other things, the spell becomes an infallible divination spell if you know the specifics about a given situation (e.g. set a Contingent Mage Armor to go off "when Duke Vox leaves his castle" and you will be 100% certain that Duke Vox left the castle even if he Sequestered himself and a retainer Plane Shifted his body out of there while a body double remained behind). 2) There are no official limits beyond what is in the spell description; see above. 3) No, unless you houserule a 6th-level spell to be no "smarter" than a 1st-level illusion. Feel free to do as you like. I also treat Contingency as a readied action the majority of the time, but also allow PCs to interrupt actions when a Contingency goes off (i.e. receiving Heal when they are reduced to 1 HP if that was the trigger, even if not all of the damage has been assigned yet). -Red Raven
tarkin 09-22-04, 06:23 PM	It is totally up to the DM. I generally rule that aside from things listed in the book, the Contigency spell knows what you know, (or would know if you were awake and capable of knowing) and nothing more.
Loren Pechtel 09-23-04, 12:48 AM	It is totally up to the DM. I generally rule that aside from things listed in the book, the Contigency spell knows what you know, (or would know if you were awake and capable of knowing) and nothing more. Not quite. It's going to react to the bolt about to hit you in the back even if you don't see it, etc. I give it the knowledge you would have if you had all around vision and plenty of time to contemplate the situation. (In other words, anything you could get with a take 20.)
The Simbul 09-23-04, 01:25 AM	Given that Contingency effects can only unleash spells upon you, one would Imagine that the proscribed conditions be those that you are aware of, or otherwise would be aware of despite any current conditions affecting you (i.e. blind, unconscious, etc). In general there are several other ways to put thorns in the sides of a player who abuses Contingency effects, namely the following: 1) Literal intepretations of the rules as written: Chain Contingency is part of a Spell Chain from the base spell Contingency. The greater spells in a spell chain function exactly like the lesser ones except for one or two minor details and a higher spell level. You are only allowed one Contingency spell upon your person at one time. The fact that Chain Contingency duplicates the same caveat, by duplicating all features of the base spell, is more than enough reason to assert that you cannot have both spells active at the same time. You cannot benefit from Greater Spell Immunity and Spell Immunity simltaneously, thus there is little reason why another spell chain in the 3.5 rules should be exempt from the same common sense restriction. In fact, you could even rule that Elminster's Evasion is also a part of the Contingency spell chain, if nothing else, for the fact that the school of magic, casting times, and even the material and focus components are precise duplicates of each other, not to mention the fact that it specifically states it is a variant of contingency, rather than a spell that simply unleashes other spells in a manner smiliar to Contingency (like the Simbul's Spell Trigger). The only contingency effect that wouldnt have a true "set limitation" would be the Simbul's Spell Trigger, although one will find their 9th level spell slots and hitpoints will be running out rather quickly...not to mention that the spell's duration is only 10 MINUTES per level...which is hardly long enough to make use of contingencies for the unexpected emergency, unless you plan to renew the spell (along with all spells stored within it) every 1-5 hours. 2) An innocent little spell called Dispel Magic: All spells with Contingency effects, as well as all contingent spells created by the Craft Contingent Spell feat, are all vulnerable to dispel magic, and in the case of the crafted ones, they are not even true magic items and are not supressed for 1d4 rounds but are simply destroyed as if they were a standard spell (nice way to burn some XP huh?). 3) An innocent little spell called Shatter: Contingency Focus: A statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work. Chain Contingency Focus: A statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work. Elminster's Evasion Focus: A statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work. Simbul's Spell Trigger Focus: A diamond with a minimum value of 1,500gp. A single area-effect Shatter spell should suffice to destroy all of the contingency-class Focus components carried by given character at any one time. Focus items are not magic items, and of all of the above spells, only the Spell Trigger is vague about whether or not the focus is necessary to trigger the stored spells, although logic would suggest this is in fact the case.