Continual flame (sp) vs. Darkness (su) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Continual flame (sp) vs. Darkness (su) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BenjaminBinder
09-07-04, 01:47 PM During last night's gaming session, the party encountered a fiendish darkmantle. The darkmantle used its darkness supernatural ability. One of the PCs, a 2nd-level ghaele eldarin (Savage Species), had previously cast continual flame on a rock as a spell-like ability (usable 1/day, at that level). She pulled the rock from where she had stowed it among her gear and asked if the light would counter the darkness. Now, I'm rather inexperienced when it comes to complicated magic rules, but I judged that no, she could not, because she was not powerful enough and doing so would make the encounter too easy. Looking through my manuals after the game, I believe I was right.

(1) According to the DMG, neither spell-like abilities nor supernatural abilities are subject to counterspelling/dispelling.

(2) Even if that were not true, that's not how counterspelling works. The gahele would have had to cast her continual flame spell at the same moment the darkmantle was using its darkness ability. Probably would have to make some kind of check, too?

Those who know the rules better than I, please tell me whether or not I was right.
Dartanel
09-07-04, 02:28 PM Continual flame does not counter or dispel darkness. Only Light/Daylight do. And a couple other spells added in other books, but every spell that counters or dispels darkness specifies in its description that it does.
BenjaminBinder
09-07-04, 02:46 PM The spell description for continual flame the PHB3.5 says 'Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of equal or lower level.' Continual flame and darkness are both 2nd-level Sor/Wiz spells. However, I think the point is moot, because in this case neither creature was using a spell. The ghaele was using a spell-like ability and the darkmantle was using a supernatural ability.
primemover003
09-07-04, 03:36 PM You were correct in your call... however if the rock had a Light spell or daylight spell it would cancel out or overpwer the darkness spell. Remember this isn't counterspelling, this can happen with spells or spell-like abilities already in place.

Light vs. Darkness: they cancel eachother out, normal lighting conditions prevail....Ignore the man behind the curtain, I've been up for over 26 hours:)

Daylight vs. Darkness: Darkness suppressed, Daylight acts normally

Daylight vs. Deeper Darkness: as L vs. D
tarkin
09-07-04, 03:41 PM Spell like abilities can not be counterspelled.

But I am almost certain that they can be dispelled.
BenjaminBinder
09-07-04, 04:09 PM Now I'm confused. Light is a 0-level Sor/Wiz spell, whereas darkness is a 2nd-level Sor/Wiz spell. Light shouldn't be able to counter/dispel darkness, but daylight (Sor/Wiz 3) should.

tarkin, the darkmantle's darkness was a Supernatural Ability. Supernatural Abilities cannot be dispelled.

So, I guess I was right. :) Thank you all for your help.
Frank the Vandal
09-07-04, 04:28 PM Light doesn't help against magical darkness:
Light taken into an area of magical darkness does not function.

I'm not sure what happens between Continual Flame and Darkness. The Darkness won't be dispelled, of course, but the description of Darkness says:
Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness.

No mention of same level spells. I'd say having them cancel out would be reasonable. If the Continual Light was cast as a Cleric spell, then it would be third level, and work perfectly, I think.
(The Darkmantle's ability functions like the spell Darkness, according to its description.)

<mostly unrelated question/answer>
For example, the darkmantle’s
supernatural darkness ability duplicates the 2nd-level darkness
spell, which has the darkness descriptor. This ability counters
and dispels any light effect of its level or lower, and the 3rdlevel
daylight spell (which counters and dispels all darkness
effects of its level or lower) negates the darkness created by a
darkmantle’s darkness ability.
meabolex
09-07-04, 04:46 PM (1) According to the DMG, neither spell-like abilities nor supernatural abilities are subject to counterspelling/dispelling.
Spells and spell-like abilities can possibly be dispelled. To dispel a spell, you must cast that spell with the intent of dispelling it. If a rock has been the target of a darkness spell, you can dispel the darkness effect on the rock by casting continual flame on the rock. The light from a continual flame (or any light spell) does not dispel a darkness effect -- the spell itself does the dispelling. You still have to make appropriate dispel checks, just like dispel magic.

Darkness does the following in regard to light spells:
Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level.
Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness.
Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
So, a lower level light spell is incapable of brightening the area -- these spells effectively don't work in a darkness effect.

Spells of a higher level completely ignore the darkness effect. The exception is daylight -- daylight supresses the darkness and negates itself.

So, light spells of an equal level do not ignore the darkness effect and are capable of brightening the area. A continual flame will function in a darkness effect, but there's still a 20% miss chance to hit things in that area.
(2) Even if that were not true, that's not how counterspelling works. The gahele would have had to cast her continual flame spell at the same moment the darkmantle was using its darkness ability. Probably would have to make some kind of check, too?
From Skip's Article on Spell-like Abilities:
A spell-like ability cannot be used as a counterspell, and it is not subject to counterspells.
Rhys23
09-11-04, 04:52 PM A question similiar to this came up last night in my game. Damning Darkness from the BoVD was cast on an amulet that a devil was wearing. The mage of the party cast Daylight. I argued that the daylight spell would not suppress or overlap damning darkness because it is a 4th level spell while daylight is a 3rd level spell. The description of daylight does state that it will at least neutralize all darkness effects, letting normal conditions prevail. I ultimately ruled this way to end an needlessly prolonged argument, but I am still unsure how exactly this should work.

I play 3.0, btw, if this makes any difference.
Failut
09-12-04, 03:59 AM The spell description for continual flame the PHB3.5 says 'Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of equal or lower level.' Continual flame and darkness are both 2nd-level Sor/Wiz spells. However, I think the point is moot, because in this case neither creature was using a spell. The ghaele was using a spell-like ability and the darkmantle was using a supernatural ability.

it does not matter if they are SU or Spell-like abilities. For the purpose of the way they interact, they are all spells. Now the Darkmantle's Darkness is, for all pruposes, a Darkness spell (lvl 2 spell) created as if it was casted by a 5th level Sorc. the Ghaele's Cont Flame ability is just like the spell continual flame (also a 2nd lvl spell), as if it was casted by a 12th level Sorc. As per the info in the SRD under the spell Continual flame "Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level." Since these spells are of equal level they would cancel eachother out and regular light would return to the area.

Now if the Darkmantel had been using deeper darkness (which I do not think that they can do) the continual flame ability would have no effect (since deeper darkness is a lvl 3 spell).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BenjaminBinder 09-07-04, 01:47 PM	During last night's gaming session, the party encountered a fiendish darkmantle. The darkmantle used its darkness supernatural ability. One of the PCs, a 2nd-level ghaele eldarin (Savage Species), had previously cast continual flame on a rock as a spell-like ability (usable 1/day, at that level). She pulled the rock from where she had stowed it among her gear and asked if the light would counter the darkness. Now, I'm rather inexperienced when it comes to complicated magic rules, but I judged that no, she could not, because she was not powerful enough and doing so would make the encounter too easy. Looking through my manuals after the game, I believe I was right. (1) According to the DMG, neither spell-like abilities nor supernatural abilities are subject to counterspelling/dispelling. (2) Even if that were not true, that's not how counterspelling works. The gahele would have had to cast her continual flame spell at the same moment the darkmantle was using its darkness ability. Probably would have to make some kind of check, too? Those who know the rules better than I, please tell me whether or not I was right.
Dartanel 09-07-04, 02:28 PM	Continual flame does not counter or dispel darkness. Only Light/Daylight do. And a couple other spells added in other books, but every spell that counters or dispels darkness specifies in its description that it does.
BenjaminBinder 09-07-04, 02:46 PM	The spell description for continual flame the PHB3.5 says 'Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of equal or lower level.' Continual flame and darkness are both 2nd-level Sor/Wiz spells. However, I think the point is moot, because in this case neither creature was using a spell. The ghaele was using a spell-like ability and the darkmantle was using a supernatural ability.
primemover003 09-07-04, 03:36 PM	You were correct in your call... however if the rock had a Light spell or daylight spell it would cancel out or overpwer the darkness spell. Remember this isn't counterspelling, this can happen with spells or spell-like abilities already in place. Light vs. Darkness: they cancel eachother out, normal lighting conditions prevail....Ignore the man behind the curtain, I've been up for over 26 hours:) Daylight vs. Darkness: Darkness suppressed, Daylight acts normally Daylight vs. Deeper Darkness: as L vs. D
tarkin 09-07-04, 03:41 PM	Spell like abilities can not be counterspelled. But I am almost certain that they can be dispelled.
BenjaminBinder 09-07-04, 04:09 PM	Now I'm confused. Light is a 0-level Sor/Wiz spell, whereas darkness is a 2nd-level Sor/Wiz spell. Light shouldn't be able to counter/dispel darkness, but daylight (Sor/Wiz 3) should. tarkin, the darkmantle's darkness was a Supernatural Ability. Supernatural Abilities cannot be dispelled. So, I guess I was right. :) Thank you all for your help.
Frank the Vandal 09-07-04, 04:28 PM	Light doesn't help against magical darkness: Light taken into an area of magical darkness does not function. I'm not sure what happens between Continual Flame and Darkness. The Darkness won't be dispelled, of course, but the description of Darkness says: Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness. No mention of same level spells. I'd say having them cancel out would be reasonable. If the Continual Light was cast as a Cleric spell, then it would be third level, and work perfectly, I think. (The Darkmantle's ability functions like the spell Darkness, according to its description.) <mostly unrelated question/answer> For example, the darkmantle’s supernatural darkness ability duplicates the 2nd-level darkness spell, which has the darkness descriptor. This ability counters and dispels any light effect of its level or lower, and the 3rdlevel daylight spell (which counters and dispels all darkness effects of its level or lower) negates the darkness created by a darkmantle’s darkness ability.
meabolex 09-07-04, 04:46 PM	(1) According to the DMG, neither spell-like abilities nor supernatural abilities are subject to counterspelling/dispelling. Spells and spell-like abilities can possibly be dispelled. To dispel a spell, you must cast that spell with the intent of dispelling it. If a rock has been the target of a darkness spell, you can dispel the darkness effect on the rock by casting continual flame on the rock. The light from a continual flame (or any light spell) does not dispel a darkness effect -- the spell itself does the dispelling. You still have to make appropriate dispel checks, just like dispel magic. Darkness does the following in regard to light spells: Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness. Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level. So, a lower level light spell is incapable of brightening the area -- these spells effectively don't work in a darkness effect. Spells of a higher level completely ignore the darkness effect. The exception is daylight -- daylight supresses the darkness and negates itself. So, light spells of an equal level do not ignore the darkness effect and are capable of brightening the area. A continual flame will function in a darkness effect, but there's still a 20% miss chance to hit things in that area. (2) Even if that were not true, that's not how counterspelling works. The gahele would have had to cast her continual flame spell at the same moment the darkmantle was using its darkness ability. Probably would have to make some kind of check, too? From Skip's Article on Spell-like Abilities: A spell-like ability cannot be used as a counterspell, and it is not subject to counterspells.
Rhys23 09-11-04, 04:52 PM	A question similiar to this came up last night in my game. Damning Darkness from the BoVD was cast on an amulet that a devil was wearing. The mage of the party cast Daylight. I argued that the daylight spell would not suppress or overlap damning darkness because it is a 4th level spell while daylight is a 3rd level spell. The description of daylight does state that it will at least neutralize all darkness effects, letting normal conditions prevail. I ultimately ruled this way to end an needlessly prolonged argument, but I am still unsure how exactly this should work. I play 3.0, btw, if this makes any difference.
Failut 09-12-04, 03:59 AM	The spell description for continual flame the PHB3.5 says 'Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of equal or lower level.' Continual flame and darkness are both 2nd-level Sor/Wiz spells. However, I think the point is moot, because in this case neither creature was using a spell. The ghaele was using a spell-like ability and the darkmantle was using a supernatural ability. it does not matter if they are SU or Spell-like abilities. For the purpose of the way they interact, they are all spells. Now the Darkmantle's Darkness is, for all pruposes, a Darkness spell (lvl 2 spell) created as if it was casted by a 5th level Sorc. the Ghaele's Cont Flame ability is just like the spell continual flame (also a 2nd lvl spell), as if it was casted by a 12th level Sorc. As per the info in the SRD under the spell Continual flame "Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level." Since these spells are of equal level they would cancel eachother out and regular light would return to the area. Now if the Darkmantel had been using deeper darkness (which I do not think that they can do) the continual flame ability would have no effect (since deeper darkness is a lvl 3 spell).