Continuous Instantaneous Magic Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Continuous Instantaneous Magic Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xavier X
02-02-04, 08:22 PM The question is would you allow and, if yes, what would be the price of continuous instantaneous spell effect magic items? The SRD states:If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half. , which convienently leaves out instantaneous. Continuous spell effect magic items are normally priced as Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp.

Some examples: Gauntlets of Contagion (spread disease with a touch), Headband of Break Enchantment (extra save to some spells), etc.
cwslyclgh
02-02-04, 08:26 PM by thier very nature a continuos instantanious magic item can't exist... because once an instantaneous spell does its thing it is gone.

the term you are looking for ins use-activated instaneous magic item (with no daily limit)... and I doubt that I would allow one in my game.
Willie the Duck
02-02-04, 08:27 PM too tough to make a hard and fast rule on gp cost. Gloves that continuously glue, rust, etc. would be relatively cheap, but a headband that dispell magics continously would be 100s of thousands of gp (and a continuous sure strike would cost millions).
Xavier X
02-02-04, 08:37 PM I guess "use activated" would be a better way to describe it. These types of items would make a lot more sense as charged items, but the idea of the BBEG wearing gloves that will curse/disease/whatever you when he touches you is just too appealing :smirk: The other types of spells in this category tend to be protective/dispel type spells.
Loren Pechtel
02-02-04, 11:48 PM My presumption is that instantaneous/unlimited is broken. I'll listen to arguments that a particular case is ok (such as for most 0-level spells) though.
Seeker95
02-03-04, 08:15 AM Instantaneous spells have a set outcome effect.

"Continuous" instantaneous spells are use activated. Fireball is the perfect example. It can't be made continuous. By parallel, no other instantaneous spell could either, except as a cursed item, like with the aforementioned gloves of rust and glue.

I would not allow them -- not because of abuse, but because of precedent. If it can't work on some instantaneous spells -- it [i]won't[i] work on any of them.
kreynolds
02-03-04, 02:31 PM Originally posted by cwslyclgh
... and I doubt that I would allow one in my game.

Wow. Even if it was just dancing lights? :cool: Seriously.
Vorpal Warhammer
02-03-04, 03:06 PM Originally posted by kreynolds
Wow. Even if it was just dancing lights? :cool: Seriously. If you don't think a use activated item of Open/Close is overpowered, you're part of the problem. :D
kreynolds
02-03-04, 03:27 PM Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer
If you don't think a use activated item of Open/Close is overpowered, you're part of the problem. :D

I recognize your use of the smiley, so don't take this the wrong way, but...what's the problem with use-activated open/close?
Vorpal Warhammer
02-03-04, 03:34 PM Originally posted by kreynolds
I recognize your use of the smiley, so don't take this the wrong way, but...what's the problem with use-activated open/close? Absolutely nothing. It was the most innocuous instantaneous spell I could think of.
kreynolds
02-03-04, 03:36 PM Heh. Now I see the funny. :D I missed that. :cool:
Xavier X
02-03-04, 04:06 PM So it seems some people don't like the idea of continuous (where applicable) or use activated instantaneous spell effect items, some people do, and some say it depends on the spell.

So if you where to make such items, how would you price them? Spell level x Caster Level x 2000gp? If you follow the footnote from the item creation cost table it implies that shorter duration spells should cost more (see below), but then doesn't have an entry for instantaneous.

24 hour = x1/2
1hr/lvl = x1 (implied, but not stated)
10min/lvl = x1.5
1min/lvl = x2
1rnd/lvl = x4
Instant = ???

Suggestions?
kreynolds
02-03-04, 04:24 PM Well, if 1 round/level has a x4 cost multiplier, then I could see a x6 or x8 multiplier for continuous instantaneous. However, with that said, I could also see such a formula simply not working in any way, shape, or form a majority of the time.
Vorpal Warhammer
02-03-04, 04:39 PM I think the point is that it's impossible to have a continuous instantaneous item. Not because it's unbalanced, but because it's not possible.

Do you really want a Fireball that never disappears, or do you want to be able to cast Fireball every round? The first one is continuous, and the second one is Use Activated (or command activated, whatever).

Maybe if you give us an example of a spell you'd like to make continuous? The Gauntlet of Contagion would be a use activated item that casts Contagion when you make a melee touch attack. The Headband of Break Enchantment would really just be a Headband of Resistance that gave an always on resistance bonus to saves.
cwslyclgh
02-03-04, 04:44 PM If you don't think a use activated item of Open/Close is overpowered, we already come equiped with two ofthose items... :thumbsup: :thumbsdow
Vorpal Warhammer
02-03-04, 04:49 PM Originally posted by cwslyclgh
we already come equiped with two ofthose items... :thumbsup: :thumbsdow
You're lucky. My DM makes me buy them with my starting gold. I hope they never get sundered!
adiaven
02-03-04, 05:27 PM a continous fireball would be kinda cool (in a broken sort of way)

I could almost see a balor that has a burst of flames 30 ft wide always firing. A free self centered fireball every turn :)

Of course, this item wouldn't be too handy if you weren't immune to fire
Xavier X
02-03-04, 05:53 PM Vorpal.. apply use activated or continuous as warrented by the spell, although I am more interested in the continuous ones. Fireball would be a use activated item, where a spell like Banishment could be continuous or use activated, and a spell like Awaken could be continuous.

I am not really concerned too much with power level (if it is too powerful then call it an artifact or reflect it in the price somehow). So going by the examples above:

Gauntlets of the Canon: When wearing these gauntlets and gestering at a target a 10d6 fireball, as the spell, is issued forth. Cost: 3x10x2000 = 60,000gp

Amulet of Banishment (continuous): When worn, any outsider that comes within 50' of the wearer must make a will save DC 16 or be sent back to their plane of origin. Cost: 6 x 11 x 2000 = 132,000

Collar of Awaken: When placed around the neck of an animal, the animal comes under the effect of the Awaken spell. Cost: 5 x 9 x 2000 = 90,000

Do these prices seem in line, too low, too high? I'd say the Amulet of Banishment is maybe a little low.
kreynolds
02-03-04, 06:07 PM Originally posted by Xavier X
Do these prices seem in line, too low, too high?

Too low. Compare the gauntlets with a major circlet of blasting (http://3.5srd.com/web/sovelior_sage_srd/Sovelior%20SRD/magicItemsWI.html).
Xavier X
02-03-04, 06:23 PM Major Circlet does 40 hit points no save once per day for 23,760gp. A wand of 10d6 (average 35 hit points save for half) fireballs cost 3 x 10 x 750 = 22,500, or about 1/3 the Gauntlets of the Canon. So 60, 000gp is equivelant to 133 10d6 fireballs.

In that perspective is 60, 000 still not enough?

Edited for bad math! :D
kreynolds
02-03-04, 06:33 PM Originally posted by Xavier X
Major Circlet does 40 hit points no save once per day for 23,760gp. A wand of 10d6 (average 35 hit points save for half) fireballs cost 3 x 10 x 750 = 12,500...

Uh...that's 22,500. ;)

Originally posted by Xavier X
...or about 1/5 the Gauntlets of the Canon.

Uh...1/3. ;)

Originally posted by Xavier X
So 60, 000gp is equivelant to 240 10d6 fireballs.

Eh...150. ;)

Originally posted by Xavier X
In that perspective is 60, 000 still not enough?

Nope. :D You're also not making a fair comparison by using a wand as an example. Wands are cheap because—among other reasons—only people with the stored spell on their class spell list can use them. In other words, their user list is very limited. So, like I said...not a fair comparison.

P.S. My right eye is worn out now.
Xavier X
02-03-04, 06:56 PM :eek: Oops forgot to carry the one! You'd never know I know advanced calculus! :D

Okay, wands are a bad example. I'll switch to single use use activated item: 3 x 10 x 50 = 1500 or 40 10d6 fireballs for 60,000gp usable by anyone.

In that perspective, I'd have to agree 60,000gp is too low.
X105_Strike
02-04-04, 08:27 AM Originally posted by adiaven
a continous fireball would be kinda cool (in a broken sort of way)

I could almost see a balor that has a burst of flames 30 ft wide always firing. A free self centered fireball every turn :)

Of course, this item wouldn't be too handy if you weren't immune to fire

Ya, you can just see the *abuse* of cont. Ins. Magic Items. Of course, if you have a fireball surrounding you all the time, I would recommend mastery of shaping if you werent immune to fire. Even for balor, I would think that having a continuous fireball surrounding it would make the CR increase by 3 or so...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xavier X 02-02-04, 08:22 PM	The question is would you allow and, if yes, what would be the price of continuous instantaneous spell effect magic items? The SRD states:If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half. , which convienently leaves out instantaneous. Continuous spell effect magic items are normally priced as Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp. Some examples: Gauntlets of Contagion (spread disease with a touch), Headband of Break Enchantment (extra save to some spells), etc.
cwslyclgh 02-02-04, 08:26 PM	by thier very nature a continuos instantanious magic item can't exist... because once an instantaneous spell does its thing it is gone. the term you are looking for ins use-activated instaneous magic item (with no daily limit)... and I doubt that I would allow one in my game.
Willie the Duck 02-02-04, 08:27 PM	too tough to make a hard and fast rule on gp cost. Gloves that continuously glue, rust, etc. would be relatively cheap, but a headband that dispell magics continously would be 100s of thousands of gp (and a continuous sure strike would cost millions).
Xavier X 02-02-04, 08:37 PM	I guess "use activated" would be a better way to describe it. These types of items would make a lot more sense as charged items, but the idea of the BBEG wearing gloves that will curse/disease/whatever you when he touches you is just too appealing :smirk: The other types of spells in this category tend to be protective/dispel type spells.
Loren Pechtel 02-02-04, 11:48 PM	My presumption is that instantaneous/unlimited is broken. I'll listen to arguments that a particular case is ok (such as for most 0-level spells) though.
Seeker95 02-03-04, 08:15 AM	Instantaneous spells have a set outcome effect. "Continuous" instantaneous spells are use activated. Fireball is the perfect example. It can't be made continuous. By parallel, no other instantaneous spell could either, except as a cursed item, like with the aforementioned gloves of rust and glue. I would not allow them -- not because of abuse, but because of precedent. If it can't work on some instantaneous spells -- it [i]won't[i] work on any of them.
kreynolds 02-03-04, 02:31 PM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh ... and I doubt that I would allow one in my game. Wow. Even if it was just dancing lights? :cool: Seriously.
Vorpal Warhammer 02-03-04, 03:06 PM	Originally posted by kreynolds Wow. Even if it was just dancing lights? :cool: Seriously. If you don't think a use activated item of Open/Close is overpowered, you're part of the problem. :D
kreynolds 02-03-04, 03:27 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer If you don't think a use activated item of Open/Close is overpowered, you're part of the problem. :D I recognize your use of the smiley, so don't take this the wrong way, but...what's the problem with use-activated open/close?
Vorpal Warhammer 02-03-04, 03:34 PM	Originally posted by kreynolds I recognize your use of the smiley, so don't take this the wrong way, but...what's the problem with use-activated open/close? Absolutely nothing. It was the most innocuous instantaneous spell I could think of.
kreynolds 02-03-04, 03:36 PM	Heh. Now I see the funny. :D I missed that. :cool:
Xavier X 02-03-04, 04:06 PM	So it seems some people don't like the idea of continuous (where applicable) or use activated instantaneous spell effect items, some people do, and some say it depends on the spell. So if you where to make such items, how would you price them? Spell level x Caster Level x 2000gp? If you follow the footnote from the item creation cost table it implies that shorter duration spells should cost more (see below), but then doesn't have an entry for instantaneous. 24 hour = x1/2 1hr/lvl = x1 (implied, but not stated) 10min/lvl = x1.5 1min/lvl = x2 1rnd/lvl = x4 Instant = ??? Suggestions?
kreynolds 02-03-04, 04:24 PM	Well, if 1 round/level has a x4 cost multiplier, then I could see a x6 or x8 multiplier for continuous instantaneous. However, with that said, I could also see such a formula simply not working in any way, shape, or form a majority of the time.
Vorpal Warhammer 02-03-04, 04:39 PM	I think the point is that it's impossible to have a continuous instantaneous item. Not because it's unbalanced, but because it's not possible. Do you really want a Fireball that never disappears, or do you want to be able to cast Fireball every round? The first one is continuous, and the second one is Use Activated (or command activated, whatever). Maybe if you give us an example of a spell you'd like to make continuous? The Gauntlet of Contagion would be a use activated item that casts Contagion when you make a melee touch attack. The Headband of Break Enchantment would really just be a Headband of Resistance that gave an always on resistance bonus to saves.
cwslyclgh 02-03-04, 04:44 PM	If you don't think a use activated item of Open/Close is overpowered, we already come equiped with two ofthose items... :thumbsup: :thumbsdow
Vorpal Warhammer 02-03-04, 04:49 PM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh we already come equiped with two ofthose items... :thumbsup: :thumbsdow You're lucky. My DM makes me buy them with my starting gold. I hope they never get sundered!
adiaven 02-03-04, 05:27 PM	a continous fireball would be kinda cool (in a broken sort of way) I could almost see a balor that has a burst of flames 30 ft wide always firing. A free self centered fireball every turn :) Of course, this item wouldn't be too handy if you weren't immune to fire
Xavier X 02-03-04, 05:53 PM	Vorpal.. apply use activated or continuous as warrented by the spell, although I am more interested in the continuous ones. Fireball would be a use activated item, where a spell like Banishment could be continuous or use activated, and a spell like Awaken could be continuous. I am not really concerned too much with power level (if it is too powerful then call it an artifact or reflect it in the price somehow). So going by the examples above: Gauntlets of the Canon: When wearing these gauntlets and gestering at a target a 10d6 fireball, as the spell, is issued forth. Cost: 3x10x2000 = 60,000gp Amulet of Banishment (continuous): When worn, any outsider that comes within 50' of the wearer must make a will save DC 16 or be sent back to their plane of origin. Cost: 6 x 11 x 2000 = 132,000 Collar of Awaken: When placed around the neck of an animal, the animal comes under the effect of the Awaken spell. Cost: 5 x 9 x 2000 = 90,000 Do these prices seem in line, too low, too high? I'd say the Amulet of Banishment is maybe a little low.
kreynolds 02-03-04, 06:07 PM	Originally posted by Xavier X Do these prices seem in line, too low, too high? Too low. Compare the gauntlets with a major circlet of blasting (http://3.5srd.com/web/sovelior_sage_srd/Sovelior%20SRD/magicItemsWI.html).
Xavier X 02-03-04, 06:23 PM	Major Circlet does 40 hit points no save once per day for 23,760gp. A wand of 10d6 (average 35 hit points save for half) fireballs cost 3 x 10 x 750 = 22,500, or about 1/3 the Gauntlets of the Canon. So 60, 000gp is equivelant to 133 10d6 fireballs. In that perspective is 60, 000 still not enough? Edited for bad math! :D
kreynolds 02-03-04, 06:33 PM	Originally posted by Xavier X Major Circlet does 40 hit points no save once per day for 23,760gp. A wand of 10d6 (average 35 hit points save for half) fireballs cost 3 x 10 x 750 = 12,500... Uh...that's 22,500. ;) Originally posted by Xavier X ...or about 1/5 the Gauntlets of the Canon. Uh...1/3. ;) Originally posted by Xavier X So 60, 000gp is equivelant to 240 10d6 fireballs. Eh...150. ;) Originally posted by Xavier X In that perspective is 60, 000 still not enough? Nope. :D You're also not making a fair comparison by using a wand as an example. Wands are cheap because—among other reasons—only people with the stored spell on their class spell list can use them. In other words, their user list is very limited. So, like I said...not a fair comparison. P.S. My right eye is worn out now.
Xavier X 02-03-04, 06:56 PM	:eek: Oops forgot to carry the one! You'd never know I know advanced calculus! :D Okay, wands are a bad example. I'll switch to single use use activated item: 3 x 10 x 50 = 1500 or 40 10d6 fireballs for 60,000gp usable by anyone. In that perspective, I'd have to agree 60,000gp is too low.
X105_Strike 02-04-04, 08:27 AM	Originally posted by adiaven a continous fireball would be kinda cool (in a broken sort of way) I could almost see a balor that has a burst of flames 30 ft wide always firing. A free self centered fireball every turn :) Of course, this item wouldn't be too handy if you weren't immune to fire Ya, you can just see the abuse of cont. Ins. Magic Items. Of course, if you have a fireball surrounding you all the time, I would recommend mastery of shaping if you werent immune to fire. Even for balor, I would think that having a continuous fireball surrounding it would make the CR increase by 3 or so...