Continuous True Seeing - thoughts? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Continuous True Seeing - thoughts? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Beamup
08-02-04, 12:26 PM It's common knowledge that some not-terribly-high-level creatures in the MM, especially outsiders, have a continuous true seeing ability. This has always seemed extremely powerful to me, so I checked on what it would cost a PC to get that. Turns out a slotless item of continuous true seeing would be 230,000 - easily Epic - by the guidelines, and IMO that should be ad hoc adjusted upwards... seems to me a slotted item equivalent should be well into Epic ranges.

This got me thinking. When CR 14 monsters frequently have an ability that PCs can't get pre-Epic, and that ability totally neutralizes huge sets of PC abilities, and has no countertactic, does this really make sense? Especially when that ability is only a small part of the monster's capabilities?

Seems to me there are potential balance problems, but I can see it both ways. I was wondering what others think about this - is it appropriate for standard monsters to have continuous true seeing? If so, should there be some countertactic to it? If not, how should the ability be modified?
Faragdar the Wise
08-02-04, 01:00 PM There are several countertactics to true seeing. Dust of disappearance is one. A rogue with tons of ranks in hide is another. A fog cloud, especially if you have blind fight. Or the blindness spell. (I could be wrong, but I don't think true seeing is meant to confer sight on a blinded creature.)
Seeker95
08-02-04, 02:39 PM I don't see it as being a problem. It is not a game-breaking ability, although it is definitely scneario breaking. Having a monster with true seeing as a permanent ability is different from having a PC walking around with such an item. It is calculated into the creature's CR, whereas a PC is judged by character wealth.

By the way, slotted items are *half* that of slotless. I think either your math or your terms are reversed above. :D
tarkin
08-02-04, 02:43 PM Non-detection will block True Seeing.

And true seeing is not in any way related to granting sight to a blinded creature.
Beamup
08-02-04, 03:08 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
By the way, slotted items are *half* that of slotless. I think either your math or your terms are reversed above. :D

No, I was just unclear. By the guidelines, a slotted continuous true seeing ability is 115,000 and not Epic (unlike the slotless version, which is Epic by the guidelines). I'm saying it should be Epic.
Sisyfos
08-02-04, 03:13 PM True seeing is an extremely powerful ability as that one spell trumps a whole school of magic and a lot of other tactics also. There exists an item created by WoTC which grants constant true seeing and if I recall correctly it was called Hathran mask of true seeing or something like that. The price was around 100k so it seems to follow item pricing guidelines.

I personally think that the spell is fine because it lasts such a short time, but as a constant effect it is very overpowering.

High skills are the way around it though and skills seem to be more and more important at high levels anyhow as rogues and other skill based character's hide, move silently and bluff seem to easily surpass other characters spot, listen and sense motive skills.

Sisyfos
Sydney Losstarot
08-02-04, 04:54 PM Originally posted by tarkin
Non-detection will block True Seeing.

And true seeing is not in any way related to granting sight to a blinded creature.

:uh-huh: Uhm...I think you may want to re-read that spell. Carefully. It in no way blocks true seeing.
The_Bishop
08-02-04, 05:10 PM I've seen this debate before. I believe Nondetection does stop True Seeing. Here's the spell, with the relevant language bolded. The "such as" language is not exclusive, it is "example" language. The next sentence states that if a divination is attempted... yada yada. True Seeing is a divination.

The_Bishop

Nondetection
Abjuration

Level: Rgr 4, Sor/Wiz 3, Trickery 3

Components: V, S, M

Casting Time: 1 standard action

Range: Touch

Target: Creature or object touched

Duration: 1 hour/level

Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)

Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.

If cast on a creature, nondetection wards the creature’s gear as well as the creature itself.

Material Component: A pinch of diamond dust worth 50 gp.

Edited to add Bold type - and Doh, doh.
Seeker95
08-02-04, 05:30 PM Originally posted by The_Bishop
Here's the spell, with the relevant language bolded.I think you forgot to bold stuff. :D
Beamup
08-02-04, 05:34 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
I think you forgot to bold stuff. :D

No, no, there just isn't any relevant language in the spell text, apparently. :P
Sydney Losstarot
08-02-04, 05:37 PM Touche, Bishop... :D Duly noted. I shall make use of this knowledge in the future.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Beamup 08-02-04, 12:26 PM	It's common knowledge that some not-terribly-high-level creatures in the MM, especially outsiders, have a continuous true seeing ability. This has always seemed extremely powerful to me, so I checked on what it would cost a PC to get that. Turns out a slotless item of continuous true seeing would be 230,000 - easily Epic - by the guidelines, and IMO that should be ad hoc adjusted upwards... seems to me a slotted item equivalent should be well into Epic ranges. This got me thinking. When CR 14 monsters frequently have an ability that PCs can't get pre-Epic, and that ability totally neutralizes huge sets of PC abilities, and has no countertactic, does this really make sense? Especially when that ability is only a small part of the monster's capabilities? Seems to me there are potential balance problems, but I can see it both ways. I was wondering what others think about this - is it appropriate for standard monsters to have continuous true seeing? If so, should there be some countertactic to it? If not, how should the ability be modified?
Faragdar the Wise 08-02-04, 01:00 PM	There are several countertactics to true seeing. Dust of disappearance is one. A rogue with tons of ranks in hide is another. A fog cloud, especially if you have blind fight. Or the blindness spell. (I could be wrong, but I don't think true seeing is meant to confer sight on a blinded creature.)
Seeker95 08-02-04, 02:39 PM	I don't see it as being a problem. It is not a game-breaking ability, although it is definitely scneario breaking. Having a monster with true seeing as a permanent ability is different from having a PC walking around with such an item. It is calculated into the creature's CR, whereas a PC is judged by character wealth. By the way, slotted items are half that of slotless. I think either your math or your terms are reversed above. :D
tarkin 08-02-04, 02:43 PM	Non-detection will block True Seeing. And true seeing is not in any way related to granting sight to a blinded creature.
Beamup 08-02-04, 03:08 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 By the way, slotted items are half that of slotless. I think either your math or your terms are reversed above. :D No, I was just unclear. By the guidelines, a slotted continuous true seeing ability is 115,000 and not Epic (unlike the slotless version, which is Epic by the guidelines). I'm saying it should be Epic.
Sisyfos 08-02-04, 03:13 PM	True seeing is an extremely powerful ability as that one spell trumps a whole school of magic and a lot of other tactics also. There exists an item created by WoTC which grants constant true seeing and if I recall correctly it was called Hathran mask of true seeing or something like that. The price was around 100k so it seems to follow item pricing guidelines. I personally think that the spell is fine because it lasts such a short time, but as a constant effect it is very overpowering. High skills are the way around it though and skills seem to be more and more important at high levels anyhow as rogues and other skill based character's hide, move silently and bluff seem to easily surpass other characters spot, listen and sense motive skills. Sisyfos
Sydney Losstarot 08-02-04, 04:54 PM	Originally posted by tarkin Non-detection will block True Seeing. And true seeing is not in any way related to granting sight to a blinded creature. :uh-huh: Uhm...I think you may want to re-read that spell. Carefully. It in no way blocks true seeing.
The_Bishop 08-02-04, 05:10 PM	I've seen this debate before. I believe Nondetection does stop True Seeing. Here's the spell, with the relevant language bolded. The "such as" language is not exclusive, it is "example" language. The next sentence states that if a divination is attempted... yada yada. True Seeing is a divination. The_Bishop Nondetection Abjuration Level: Rgr 4, Sor/Wiz 3, Trickery 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature or object touched Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object) The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level. If cast on a creature, nondetection wards the creature’s gear as well as the creature itself. Material Component: A pinch of diamond dust worth 50 gp. Edited to add Bold type - and Doh, doh.
Seeker95 08-02-04, 05:30 PM	Originally posted by The_Bishop Here's the spell, with the relevant language bolded.I think you forgot to bold stuff. :D
Beamup 08-02-04, 05:34 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 I think you forgot to bold stuff. :D No, no, there just isn't any relevant language in the spell text, apparently. :P
Sydney Losstarot 08-02-04, 05:37 PM	Touche, Bishop... :D Duly noted. I shall make use of this knowledge in the future.