Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pennarin 07-28-05, 04:59 AM	Lets say you, a wizard, and your necromancer friends have lots of undead - three hundred skeletons/zombies and 50 ghouls - and you attempt to control them for the lenghts of time necessary to wage a war, which may be around 5 hours. What do you use? (has to be from the PHB) Animate dead Pros: Produces undead that are forever under your control unless you animate another bunch of undead, at which point you lose control over the first bunch. Cons: Each bunch of undead requires its own spellcaster to control them. Produces only skeletons/zombies. Control undead Pros: Can control any type of undead. You can control a bunch of undead through this spell and another bunch you created through animate dead. Cons: Has a duration of 1 min./level So does this mean that wizard necromancers are stuck at either having 1 spellcaster for every X number of skeletons/zombies to control them, or at controlling far more powerful undead but for very short lengths of time?
smrtgmp 07-28-05, 07:20 AM	The 2nd level command undead spell lasts for 1 day per level and allows no save if a mindless undead is the target. Furthermore, there is no limit to the number you can control with the spell. Base level wands of command undead will allow you to control a mindless undead for 3 days per charge. That would allow you to controll several skeletons/zombies if you had enough wands. Another option is the Pale Master PrC from Libris Mortis. The undead that you create using your touch attack do not count against your HD limit of controllable undead, so you could potentially raise an army if given enough time and resources.
Bonzai 07-28-05, 09:37 AM	Palemasters touch attack is the same duration of the spell. The spell is great as a battle field spell. Undead attack you, and you can turn them against their allies and masters. It is not meant to be a long term means of control. Evil Clerics are the best in that regard, with rebuke/command. Otherwise a few wands of comand undead may be what your looking for... or in the Forgotten real books, there is a spell that lets you designate some one else as the temporary leader of your undead. If your "friends" can cast that spell, your good to go.
Wyrd Bearer 07-28-05, 11:25 AM	Get the spell General of Undeath. It can be found in Ghostwalk and the Forgotten Realms setting. Admittedly, it is a cleric only spell but if your the DM or you have a DM who allows you to actually research your own spells, then you're golden. Anyway, its an 8th level spell that lets you multiply the number of HD of undead you can control by 10. This means at 20th level, just through animate dead before you do any tricks to increase your limit, you can control 400 HD of them. And the spell has a duration of 1 day per caster level, so there is a good majority of an entire month of controlling undead with one spell.
Starmage21 07-28-05, 11:31 AM	True Necromancers (Libris Mortis) have the best controlling ability. The ability to control massive amounts of undead stems from their dual caster nature though. A 11th level character (Wiz 3, Clr 3, TN 5) can control up to a total of 65HD of undead (mostly skeletons and zombies) because he has a caster level of 7 in cleric and wizard and can cast Animate Dead with each of them, and has a viable turning ability thanks to a True Necromancer class ability. It gets even worse if youve taken the Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane) feat 2 times, which will increase your caster level by 4. With that, the number of undead you can control at level 11 is a little better than twice what a straight spellcaster would have. Maximum HD with Animate Dead = 44; 11HD w/ Turning Ability (IF you have 5 ranks in Knowledge: Religion); (44x2)+11=99HD of undead(88HD of which will have to be skeletons and zombies)! but wait, theres more! If you have access to the Player's Guide to Faerūn, you have access to another great set of spells to help your undead army grow! Take a look at General of Undeath. It increases the amount of undead you can control x10 and lasts 1 day/level! Research a way for Permanancy to make it permanent (depending on DM, some will let you just cast permanancy even though its not on the list), and 4,000XP later you can control 10x the amount of undead without the need to re-cast an 8th level spell every couple of weeks.
Pennarin 07-28-05, 01:37 PM	Anyway, its an 8th level spell that lets you multiply the number of HD of undead you can control by 10. This means at 20th level, just through animate dead before you do any tricks to increase your limit, you can control 400 HD of them. And the spell has a duration of 1 day per caster level, so there is a good majority of an entire month of controlling undead with one spell. The spell increases the number of HD of undead to 5 times your caster level. The spell has a duration of 1 day/level but it doesn't affect the duration of animate dead or control undead. You still need to cast those spells repeatedly to keep control. All that general of undeath does is ensure that your maximum controlled amount of HD, gained through any other spell, is 5 times your caster level.
green_yawgmoth 07-28-05, 02:41 PM	The spell increases the number of HD of undead to 5 times your caster level. The spell has a duration of 1 day/level but it doesn't affect the duration of animate dead or control undead. You still need to cast those spells repeatedly to keep control. All that general of undeath does is ensure that your maximum controlled amount of HD, gained through any other spell, is 5 times your caster level. AD has an instantaneous duration; you control the undead for as long as you exist. And where do you get the idea that it's 5x CL? The book says 10x. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
ClErik 07-28-05, 02:56 PM	Command Undead is the way to go. It lasts for one day/level. You average level 3 necromancer (enough INT to get one bonus spell of each relevant level) (assuming he ONLY memorizes Command Undead, every day) will have his personal army of 9 mindless (gets no save, so you won't need redundant spells) undead, of any HD (well, he can't animate them just jet). At level 5 he picks up extend spell, and increases his total to 50. At 7th level he learns Animate Dead, giving him 28 HD from animate dead (permanent) and 133 undead from Command (or 119 if he wants to have Animate Dead memorized). The 28 HD from animate dead is useless, but it can be used to create a steady source of undead, in case of...casulties. Assuming he can dip in a few splatbooks, he'll pick up Chain Spell (CA) at 9th level to increase his total control to 36 HD from animate dead and 486 from Command (still no other spells though). To take it to the end. BBEG. Lich (just for flavour). Level 11 Necromacer. 44 HD from Animate Dead (Whooh!) and 1628 from Command Undead. And you get to choose ANY type of zombie or skeleton, and even then, a human skeleton is a better soldier than an average human. A True Necromancer get fewer undead, but more spellslots that can be used for other spells (inflict spells come to mind, for a little 'healing'). Some corpsecrafter (Libris Mortis) can also be good, but a true necromancer doesn't really have that many feats. Craft Rod can be useful, to get a couple of metamagic rods (more extend and chain). If you can find intelligent undead (beware, these get to save against Command Undead) that are spellcasters you can command them, and make them Command more undead in turn. And you can use undead with spawn abilities (again, as these are generally intelligent, so they get to save), to save some cash (no need for onyxes). A platoon of incorporeal undead for covert ops is always useful (espionage/assassinate enemy commanders). Combine with Disguise Self/Alter Self for even greater effect (take the place of the enemy commander). Thats all you need to know for your undead army beginner set.
Rundor The Mighty 07-28-05, 04:02 PM	Command Undead is the way to go. It lasts for one day/level. You average level 3 necromancer (enough INT to get one bonus spell of each relevant level) (assuming he ONLY memorizes Command Undead, every day) will have his personal army of 9 mindless (gets no save, so you won't need redundant spells) undead, of any HD (well, he can't animate them just jet). At level 5 he picks up extend spell, and increases his total to 50. At 7th level he learns Animate Dead, giving him 28 HD from animate dead (permanent) and 133 undead from Command (or 119 if he wants to have Animate Dead memorized). The 28 HD from animate dead is useless, but it can be used to create a steady source of undead, in case of...casulties. Assuming he can dip in a few splatbooks, he'll pick up Chain Spell (CA) at 9th level to increase his total control to 36 HD from animate dead and 486 from Command (still no other spells though). To take it to the end. BBEG. Lich (just for flavour). Level 11 Necromacer. 44 HD from Animate Dead (Whooh!) and 1628 from Command Undead. And you get to choose ANY type of zombie or skeleton, and even then, a human skeleton is a better soldier than an average human. A True Necromancer get fewer undead, but more spellslots that can be used for other spells (inflict spells come to mind, for a little 'healing'). Some corpsecrafter (Libris Mortis) can also be good, but a true necromancer doesn't really have that many feats. Craft Rod can be useful, to get a couple of metamagic rods (more extend and chain). If you can find intelligent undead (beware, these get to save against Command Undead) that are spellcasters you can command them, and make them Command more undead in turn. And you can use undead with spawn abilities (again, as these are generally intelligent, so they get to save), to save some cash (no need for onyxes). A platoon of incorporeal undead for covert ops is always useful (espionage/assassinate enemy commanders). Combine with Disguise Self/Alter Self for even greater effect (take the place of the enemy commander). Thats all you need to know for your undead army beginner set. Another simple addition is the Undead Leadership feat, take that as your 6th level feat and you have a undead cohort with real class levels at just -2 levels from you. Oh, and how about also throwing in all the skeleton or zombie followers you can then get. And you do not need to do a single ounce of work for any of the undead you get from this feat. Take feat, get cohort, later get followers (soon very many), smash enemies head, eat brains, be very joyful.
Pennarin 07-28-05, 04:34 PM	AD has an instantaneous duration; you control the undead for as long as you exist. And where do you get the idea that it's 5x CL? The book says 10x. Heh, I know about the wonderful instantaneous duration of animate dead, its problem is that you control only the undead you create through it: ordinary skeletons/zombies. General of undeath, as I can see in the revised Player's Guide to Faerūn, says: "This spell increases the number of Hit Dice of undead that you can control by an amount equal to five times your caster level.", and the errata to the Guide does not mention an error with the spell.
Pennarin 07-28-05, 04:41 PM	At 7th level he learns Animate Dead, giving him 28 HD from animate dead (permanent) and 133 undead from Command (or 119 if he wants to have Animate Dead memorized). ClErik and Rundor The Mighty, nice work! Gave me ideas I didn't think about. Nice analysis overall ClErik, but where does the 133 number comes from? If you can cast command undead say...5 times per day every day for a year, can't you possibly get 1825 undead under your control? I read the spell but didn't see a number limitation (besides having to revew the spell once every few days...could this be the source of the number? did your calculation account for renewal of the control?)
green_yawgmoth 07-28-05, 08:41 PM	Heh, I know about the wonderful instantaneous duration of animate dead, its problem is that you control only the undead you create through it: ordinary skeletons/zombies. General of undeath, as I can see in the revised Player's Guide to Faerūn, says: "This spell increases the number of Hit Dice of undead that you can control by an amount equal to five times your caster level.", and the errata to the Guide does not mention an error with the spell. What's wrong with skeletons and zombies? They make excellent shock troops/cannon fodder, and there's a ton of spells and feats that only make them better. As for GoU, I was reading the Ghostwalk spell of the same name. I guess faerun needed to hit it with the nerf bat. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
FrznFury 07-28-05, 09:40 PM	The ECS has a feat called Undead Empathy that lets you use diplomacy to essentially charm mindless undead. It also provides a bonus on checks to influence intelligent undead.
Xanthia 07-28-05, 11:23 PM	I think I'm the only one who understands your signature. :heehee
Elvintry 07-28-05, 11:37 PM	I think I'm the only one who understands your signature. :heehee I understand it and I think it's total BOGUS for FrznFury to quote such a BOGUS (but decent) movie...
DarkerDreams 07-29-05, 12:23 AM	much like everything else wizards want to do, you start by playing a cleric. failing that? get leadership and get a bone knight (five nations, eberron) as a cohort. fill out ranks using the liber mortis/etc to get other undead controllers (vampires, death knights), and search desperatly for access to an ability evil clerics get at 1st level.
FrznFury 07-29-05, 12:51 AM	Wow, so much attention for an obscure sigged movie line... totally awesome. *air guitar solo* It's mostly because I like Steve Vai... Anyway, back on topic, I still say it's more fun to just talk to them. Who can argue with changing the zombies' attitude (Read "programming") so that they're friendly towards you? All you need is Cha 13, beyond that, any class can do it.
smrtgmp 07-29-05, 01:20 AM	Palemasters touch attack is the same duration of the spell. The spell is great as a battle field spell. Undead attack you, and you can turn them against their allies and masters. It is not meant to be a long term means of control. you're right, it does have the same duration as the spell. But since the spell it duplicates is animate dead, which has a duration of instantaneous, its kind of a moot point. The undead created are yours until they are destroyed or someone takes them from you.
green_yawgmoth 07-29-05, 02:09 AM	you're right, it does have the same duration as the spell. But since the spell it duplicates is animate dead, which has a duration of instantaneous, its kind of a moot point. The undead created are yours until they are destroyed or someone takes them from you. I believe he was thinking of the commanding touch, whereas you're thinking of the deathless master touch. Both are fun, IMO. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
smrtgmp 07-29-05, 03:21 AM	ahh, you are likely correct. Good call.
ClErik 07-29-05, 10:43 AM	Pennarin, 133 comes from: 5x7 (have 5 level 2 spellslots to use, each spell lasts for 7 days) + 7x7x2 (have a total of 7 level 3 and higher spellslots, to use for Extended Command Undead) = 133. With a Rod of Extand Spell, one could increase this number by 21, and with another, a further 14. I also though of a few things more. You can upp your army with a little enchantment. Domination also lasts for one day/level. Everytime you find a wizard or sorcerer (Clerics just won't do. They simply have to much will saves. And wizards are better necromancers anyway.) dominate it. Yes, they have good will saves, and it is going to use up precious level 5 slots (normally used for chained Command undead), but he will get to command even more undead (and he can act as an intelligen strike team, or artillery with a wand or two). They still have that nasty will save, but there is a solution to that:Have a bunch of allips. Whenever you find a wizard or sorcerer, have them wisdom drain it to the lower reaches, and it will be susceptible to your domination (and, you can keep it there. They won't need their wisdom). I'd skip undead leadership. Normal leadership is better. Simply recruit only necromancers with extend (well, a few clerics can be good to, for all the utlity spells. Inflict and Desecrate comes to mind), and later chain spell. Now you got even more forces AND artillery support (don't use spellslots, use wands/staves). As Command Undead has no HD limit, you can simply Command ANY undead. So, where to get all those big nifty undead? Easy. Planar Binding. Call in any outsiders you want. Kill them. Animate them. If we really want want to suck out all the juice out of this, we can get a Rod of Undead Mastery (Libris Mortis) (doesn't affect the undead controlled by command undead, but it's still something). Or get one for anyone using animate dead. General of Undeath may be all well, BUT its a high level spell, and it is a cleric only spell, and compared to wizards, clerics are inferior necromancers (I have nothing against clerics, I'm only stating fact. Look at my nick for proof), at least at higher levels. Both Stitched Flesh Familiar and Scepter of the Netherworld I find not worth their price, as they only give you control of a few more undead. If you have resources to spare, use them for pearls of power or similar. All this is going to cost a bit (spellcomponents, and all the magical stuff you want/need), but in return you get an unstoppable army. And you can still get a lot of funding from pillaging every town in your wake (free zombies too, with pale master) and sending a contigent of undead to every mine you come across (to work, or to keep human slaves).
DarkerDreams 07-29-05, 12:30 PM	As Command Undead has no HD limit, you can simply Command ANY undead. So, where to get all those big nifty undead? Easy. Planar Binding. Call in any outsiders you want. Kill them. Animate them. animating outsiders often strips their most useful abilities. ...compared to wizards, clerics are inferior necromancers (I have nothing against clerics, I'm only stating fact. Look at my nick for proof), at least at higher levels. how do you figure? clerics can rebuke/control undead, have access to more undead creation spells (and get others at lower level), and are better spellcasters. I repeat, where do you begin to imagine this is "fact"? even the liber mortis does little or nothing to change this- the only pure "arcane necromancer" class is pale master, and clerics get as many (or more) spells added directly to what they can cast (as opposed to wizards who still have to learn and scribe the few they get).
DarkerDreams 07-29-05, 12:46 PM	doublepost
ninja1 07-29-05, 01:57 PM	I get a kick out of the number of book suppliments used when Pennarin wrote: "(has to be from the PHB)". :D I also enjoy the Arcane vs. Divine debate for necromancers, when a Cohort or fellow PC can make the argument kinda moot (IMHO). Arcane and Divine work so well together, I can't imagine not having both in a group! Animate dead Pros: Animated Dead created by multiple spellcasters can be commanded by their creator to obey you. The multiple spellcasters stay safe at home. Produces skeletons/zombies of up to 20 HD (or dragons with no upper HD limit, from the Dragons book..... but that's not the PHB, so please ignore it). :) Control undead Pros: Can be cast by a 1st level arcane caster with the Precocious Apprentice feat (thanks go to PhaedrusXY for this!!) Undead Controlled by multiple spellcasters can be commanded by their creator to obey you. The multiple spellcasters stay safe at home. If you are interested in creating custom made corpses to animate, may I recommend this thread: Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=173080)
ClErik 07-29-05, 04:27 PM	Calling in outsiders have a few advantages. You can freely choose which type to call in, and thus, always get premium quality undead. Yes, they might lose many abilities, but some are quite strong even without them. And most importantly, they are always avalible. Should you find yourselft fighting constructs, you'll run out of corpses sooner or later. Then you have these outsiders waiting for you. Now, the Arcane vs. Divine Necromancer (PHB ONLY). Creation: Animate dead: Clerics get them at level 5 (spellevel 3), while Wizards get them at level 7 (spellevel 4) Create Undead: both gain the spell at level 11 (spellevel 6) Create Greater Undead: both at level 15 (spellevel 8) Strength/Augmentation (special for undead) : Desecrate, Cleric level 3 (spellevel 2) Wizards don't really have any that I can think of at the moment. Resupply/Relief (ability to recover after battle): Inflict spells, Cleric level 1 (clerics are superior healers, as they've always been) Enervation, Wizard level 7 Planar Ally, Cleric level 7 (spellevel 4) (but who wants to pay xp to get undead? Besides, your patron deity isn't going to be to happy to find out your killing its servants) Planar Binding, Wizard, level 9 (spellevel 5) (slightly later, but no xp cost) Army Size: Cleric: 4 HD/Level via animate dead (spellevel 3), starting at level 5. 1 HD/Level via Command Undead (class feature), starting at level 1. Wizard: 4 HD/level via animate dead (spellevel 4), starting at level 7. 1 Creature/Level/spellslot used (double with extend spell) via Command Undead (spellevel 2), starting at level 3 Endgame: Clerics have a head start, and win a few small victories. They get to animate their own undead slightly earlier, are better healers (suprised?), are slightly better at buffing their own undead and so on. Wizards take one victory, but it is a decisive one. They get to control more undead, far more. At early levels (1-6), they are quite even. At level 1-2 Clerics win, they can control undead (no matter how few), Wizards don't. 3-4 Wizards win. None may create undead, but Wizards get to control far more (over 3 times as many). 5-6 Clerics win slightly. They can create undead, Wizards don't. Wizards still get to control more. 6+ Both get to create undead, but wizards get to control more, they always will, and the gap will increase with every level. These arguments are enough to make 'Wizards are better necromancers' a fact to me.
ClErik 07-29-05, 05:18 PM	Having read the thread provided by ninja, I come up with another, not very nice idea. Larger undead. Simply follow this simple 4 step system to get big undead. 1. find a creature 2. kill said creature 3. animate creature into desired undead (Zombie or Skeleton), using animate dead 4. cast Polymorph Any Object to polymorph zombie/skeleton into zombie/skeleton great wyrm gold dragon (or other desired type of undead) Same kingdom (undead), same class (Mindless Undead), possibly related (if the same type of base creature, i.e. dragon whelp to great wyrm dragon) and same or lower intelligence amounting to a permanent duration. The same method (backwards) can be used to take control of areas where the bulk of your undead army can't reach, or where they fight at a severe disdvantage (i.e. a siege). Simply polymorph them into pebbles or something and dump them in the enemy territory (by teleport or by mundane means, such as a catapult).
DarkerDreams 07-29-05, 07:33 PM	Army Size: Cleric: 4 HD/Level via animate dead (spellevel 3), starting at level 5. 1 HD/Level via Command Undead (class feature), starting at level 1. Wizard: 4 HD/level via animate dead (spellevel 4), starting at level 7. 1 Creature/Level/spellslot used (double with extend spell) via Command Undead (spellevel 2), starting at level 3 you forgot the rebuke/control ability that clerics get at first level, and the boost they can get from 2 properly chosen domains (death and evil from the PH, right off, the undeath and others from BoVD and LM). you also ignore that command undead is the only ability/spell under discussion with a time limit (duration), which makes it useful for quick and dirty expendable troops, but not for ongoing dark army building. you also confuse a considered opinion for a fact.
Pennarin 07-29-05, 07:49 PM	I get a kick out of the number of book suppliments used when Pennarin wrote: "(has to be from the PHB)". :D Heh, what can I do...this is a people's republic after all... :D Animate dead Pros: Animated Dead created by multiple spellcasters can be commanded by their creator to obey you. The multiple spellcasters stay safe at home. Produces skeletons/zombies of up to 20 HD (or dragons with no upper HD limit, from the Dragons book..... but that's not the PHB, so please ignore it). Control undead Pros: Can be cast by a 1st level arcane caster with the Precocious Apprentice feat (thanks go to PhaedrusXY for this!!) Undead Controlled by multiple spellcasters can be commanded by their creator to obey you. The multiple spellcasters stay safe at home. Animate dead: Undead obey the caster' spoken commands, but no mention can be found of the complexity of said orders, so I guess your scheme of ordering the undead to obey someone else's spoken commands could work. Control undead: Same as for animate dead. Command undead: Doesn't work for that spell. 1. find a creature 2. kill said creature 3. animate creature into desired undead (Zombie or Skeleton), using animate dead 4. cast Polymorph Any Object to polymorph zombie/skeleton into zombie/skeleton great wyrm gold dragon (or other desired type of undead) Same kingdom (undead), same class (Mindless Undead), possibly related (if the same type of base creature, i.e. dragon whelp to great wyrm dragon) and same or lower intelligence amounting to a permanent duration. I'm not sure but I think undead are not considred objects, but corpses are. You might want to use step 4 before step 3.
ClErik 07-30-05, 08:59 AM	Darkerdreams: These arguments are enough to make 'Wizards are better necromancers' a fact to me. Cleric: 4 HD/Level via animate dead (spellevel 3), starting at level 5. 1 HD/Level via Command Undead (class feature), starting at level 1. the ability is called command undead (at least in the PHB. 159) Evil domain gives you 4 more HD for animate dead. Death domain gives you nothing worth noting. Command undead has a duration of ONE DAY/LEVEL. It automatically affect mindless undead, and has no HD limit. So, you use it on your biggest creations (from Animate Dead) to save your precious HD limit (Animate Dead again). Yes, you are going to use up a few spellslots, but then again, there are few level 2 spells that are better than one undead creature/level, especially when you get into the higher levels and start creating you own undead. Pennarin: Creatures are also viable targets for Polymorph any object. And you do it on the zombies/skeletons because animate dead can't animate anything that would result in more than 20 HD. And you save some onyxes.
ninja1 08-01-05, 09:30 AM	Calling in outsiders have a few advantages. You can freely choose which type to call in, and thus, always get premium quality undead. Another option for Premium Quality Undead: 1. Walls of Stone (several to overlap and make very large blocks) 2. Guidance of the Avatar, Divine Insight (and other skill boosting spells, both for the Knowledge: (skill to know the type of creature you want) and for the Craft: Sculpting) 3. Fabricate (lots of castings if need be, use Craft: Sculpting checks to make Huge statues) 4. Polymorph any Object (to duplicate Stone to Flesh's instantaneous effect with a much Larger target). 5. Animate Dead Another disadvantage to using Polymorph any Object to change one type of corpse into another (like a horse corpse into a Grey Render corpse) is that it has a duration of Permanent and is thus Dispellable. Strength/Augmentation (special for undead) : ...(snip)... Wizards don't really have any that I can think of at the moment. Sorry Pennarin, but I'm going to break from the PHB for a second :) There's a cool augmentation variant in Unearthed Arcana for Wizards specializing in Necromancy. IIRC, it's enhancment bonuses to Strength and Dexterity. Also, it gives +2 HP/HD. Army Size: Cleric: (snip) Wizard: (snip) True, they can get varying quantities alone, but who fights alone? Cleric with a Wizard Cohort? Wizard with a Cleric Cohort? Party with both Wizards and Clerics? Wizard followers with Precocious Apprentice? I think that there's enough ways to sneak in more HD worth of undead to control than is reasonable for most games. Eventually, the limiting factor is not how much you can control, but how much you make before the DM brings the adventure to you. To each his/her own, but I will always recommend people choose the kind of character they would enjoy playing (cleric vs. wizard), and then suppliment the type of magic they lack with a Cohort or fellow PC. Personally, I like the cleric for self sufficiency. They can heal themselves and be persistant tanks.... ymmv. Edit: you also ignore that command undead is the only ability/spell under discussion with a time limit (duration), which makes it useful for quick and dirty expendable troops, but not for ongoing dark army building. Well, that's debatable. Even though there is a duration, there's nothing preventing the character from devoting spell slots towards the maintenance of the control. If a wizard necromancer wants ongoing dark army building, then he/she just devotes more spell slots over the course of time. Another option to save Onyx is to find a way to get Animate Dead as a spell like ability such as a level 2 Pale Master.
Oakspar77777 08-01-05, 04:09 PM	Note that control isn't all that it is cracked up to be. Remember that even a mindless undead defaults to "kill living" in abscence of command. Ghouls are intellegent (vaguely) and can be dealt with (especially if you are feeding them). Of course, for the ultimate army, what you want is lots of commoners and a single wight, which you control (or Wraith, if you can control one of those). The spawn ability means that all you have to do is throw a few prisoners on your "pet" and all of its spawn will answer to it (which answers to you). Open up that group of spawn on a small village, and you soon have a small army. Raid a few more villages, and you will be a short trip from OWNING THE WORLD. Of course, making sure that you are an undead first helps with the job security. Just avoid towns with Temples to Pelor until your army is in the thousands, and keep your "pet" close, since if it gets toasted, the wights all go free (anther reason to make sure you keep track of the Generations of Wights that you have. If, for example, only 4 are created by your "pet", then if it is destroyed, you only have to control those 4 generals to regain control of your entire army).
ninja1 08-01-05, 04:31 PM	Oakspar77777, you're on the right track, but this should only be one small aspect of a well rounded force IMHO. A low(er) HD creature like a wight is easy enough with a Cleric's rebuke ability. Then, make a standing order for your wight to command all and any spawn created to obey you and your friends. But, these should be seen as cannon fodder. Easily replaced minions that cost you little. Now, look at the other tools at your disposal. Imagine if you will a 20 HD skeleton. (I prefer advanced Pit Fiends myself :D ) Animate it using as many of the Corpsecrafter chain of feats as possible (from Libris Mortis). Do this under the effects of a Desecrate Spell near a shrine to your evil God. Toss in the Necromancer's Augmented Undead variant (from Unearthed Arcana). Awaken it, giving it loads of skill points and Feats (Lots of Improved Toughness goes a long way). Toss on some armor, or regulary buff it with long duration buffs like Improved Mage Armor. How many wights would it take to take down such a monstrosity? (analogous to how many crits one can roll?) Heavy Hitters such as this may be necessary to tackle your enemies own Heavy Hitters.
Oakspar77777 08-01-05, 04:49 PM	Yes, the Wight are slaughter by the skeleton, but why are you fighting your fellow followers of darkness?? Wights excell against living targets, since they can always forgoe their attack to just make a touch attack for the drain. Once they get into melee with living humanoid forces, the fun begins. And don't forget that Wights are intellegent and good at sneaking. What Whights do is sneak into cities that are not yet locked up, sneak into houses, and start turning people in their sleep. And what of that heavy hitter? Unless it is somehow immune to enemy drain, that hord of Wights is going to start getting in touches, and before long, it will be down. Finnally, remember that I also mentioned Wraiths, who have all of the lovely goodness of Wights, but are incorporeal, and while useless during the day, are almost impossible to keep from swarming even the most heavily guarded city at night. And since all this really requires only the control of one or two undead, you still have your Animate Dead HD and other means for whatever other nastiness you want to create. Once you have a decent army going, you are going to have a hard time trying NOT to have Ghoul bands willingly following you arround to feed on the remains from your non-animating minions. Of course, Vampires also fall nicely into the "you only have to control one" camp, and can add another level to the devistation. All you really need to have a huge army is a huge number of hapless victims. Personally, I think starting with the goblin, kobald, and then orc hoards outside of civilization will give you the most bodies for the lowest risk (few good clerics) with the side effect of letting the human boundry cities fill up with overcontent peasants as the normal threats of day to day life seem to dry up and dissapear. However, once you realease your hoards of Vampire Orcs, Goblin Wights, and Kobald Wraiths on these villages, exspect quick reprisal. I would also suggest striking from the inside out. Since your army is exceptionally sneaky, infiltrate a capital city first, swarm the lower levels of society, since here will be your highest density of low level fodder, allowing your army to explode in numbers, then retreat out in all dirrections, swallowing towns as you go and buringing EVERYTHING. Your army will continue to swell, and the human infastructure will crumble. All that will be left are the higher level threats, which honestly, you will need to deal with yourself, or with elite bands of Vampire assassins.
ninja1 08-02-05, 09:22 AM	Hi Oakspar77777, Please don't misunderstand my statement. I highly encourage your strategy to be used, I just would warn against it being the only thing someone does. I think it has a synergistic role within a much larger plan. The things I was trying to rebut were: 1. "Note that control isn't all that it is cracked up to be." I disagree here, I think that control is often underestimated. Control allows you to yoke 20+ HD monstrosities that are all that would stand a chance against the opposition's heavy hitters. These are the only minions with the raw HP to survive the big guns. 2. "Of course, for the ultimate army, what you want is lots of commoners and a single wight, which you control (or Wraith, if you can control one of those)." I think that wights or wraiths make the ultimate spys, distraction, or cannon fodder. You don't send a foot soldier to do an M1A1 Abram Tank's job. :D 3. "Just avoid towns with Temples to Pelor until your army is in the thousands," But even then, for any reasonable encounter, the DM's job is to ensure the Challenge Rating is appropriate. Whatever the In-Game excuse is, you should often find yourself encountering obstacles or enemies that constitute a reasonable challenge. Avoid the Temples of Pelor all you wish, their champions will find their way to you. :) 4. "Yes, the Wight are slaughter by the skeleton, but why are you fighting your fellow followers of darkness??" Just as an example. I recomend imagining the heaviest opposition you can muster, and expect something similar from your enemy. Personally, I'd expect Solars, Planetars, and other such forces to be ready for you when you have thousands of wights or wraiths. And yes, I wouldn't expect it to be difficult for any enemy of our major Undead forces to come up with "Immune to Energy Drain", Immune to Negative Energy, and the ability to affect Incorporeal targets. I expect the opposition to defend against our strengths and play to our weaknesses. :(
DarkerDreams 08-02-05, 01:10 PM	as a thing, in your "conquor the world" sequence, you'd probably want to send some sort of significant force against those outposts first- draw off the defenders and keep the outposts from either coming to the core's aid or becoming a refuge. but that's military strategy, not controlling undead. the point I was trying to make earlier about clerical rebuke/control is that the create undead spells do not put the creatures under your controll, unlike animate- meaning there is no RAW way for a wizard to assume permanent control over higher undead (while clerics do have that ability) which puts a damper on any number of "army of undead" schemes... I also have issues with the stone to flesh/animate scheme... but I can see a case for it in the RAW.
ninja1 08-02-05, 01:38 PM	Hi DarkerDreams, I for one, would never mind reading more military strategy.... as long as the word "undead" pops up every so often. :schemes: the point I was trying to make earlier about clerical rebuke/control is that the create undead spells do not put the creatures under your controll, unlike animate- meaning there is no RAW way for a wizard to assume permanent control over higher undead (while clerics do have that ability) which puts a damper on any number of "army of undead" schemes... But why must a scheme incorporate only a single character? Are we stuck in the paradigm of the "Big Bad End Guy" (singular)? I for one, am interested from a PC bad guy perspective. And when I DM, I try to imagine my BBEGs as well rounded characters as well. Why not consider a Wizard with a Cleric Cohort... or a Cleric with a Wizard Cohort.... or a party consisting of Wizards and Clerics in various ratios... Forgive me for writing this, but I read into the thread and see you and ClErik occupying far ends of the spectrum in the Wizard vs. Cleric Debate. Would a scenario where a Wizard and a Cleric team up negate the entire arguement? I also have issues with the stone to flesh/animate scheme... but I can see a case for it in the RAW. Well written!!
DarkerDreams 08-02-05, 08:26 PM	I for one, am interested from a PC bad guy perspective. And when I DM, I try to imagine my BBEGs as well rounded characters as well. Why not consider a Wizard with a Cleric Cohort... or a Cleric with a Wizard Cohort.... or a party consisting of Wizards and Clerics in various ratios... Forgive me for writing this, but I read into the thread and see you and ClErik occupying far ends of the spectrum in the Wizard vs. Cleric Debate. Would a scenario where a Wizard and a Cleric team up negate the entire arguement? actually, the argument comes from seeing the few dedicated wizard players I know get disenchanted with the class because they see the cleric as a better caster plus "not being worthless when they're done with spells," additionally, many see the cleric's class abilities being sacrosanct when wizards have no class abilities to speak of. ymmv- but that's where I'm coming from. as for the wizard and cleric partnership- one of the great weaknesses of evil is that everyone wants to get ahead... and many are willing to do so over their partner's dead bodies (or at their partners expense at least). So yes, one has to have the overwhelming power in the situation- or be willing to charm the other into oblivion. as for the military tactics- the idea of taking out the normal "predators of the common man" is great. The immediate follow up (as said) is a concentrated infiltration of those rich and fat boarderlands. However, this "recruitment drive" kicks into low gear the instant an organized resistance materializes- mostly replaced with physical assault (those raised 20 hd creatures etc, backed with some non-undead nastiness just to add a spine against clerics). The recruitment doesn't end- the recruits from that area remain behind while their creators (theoretically the more capable of the group) use their stealth to move towards the capital etc with no undue haste. As the war of attrition grinds through the hinterlands any worthwhile lord will send aid to the border (where they will be recruited as wraiths, weights, vampires, or less dignified animated dead) reducing the core's defenses. Whether or not aid is forthcoming the defenses can then be easily stripped- creating more troops for you (again, that part has already been covered). the endgame is; after clean up in the (literal) ghost towns of the core you crush whatever remaining resistance exists in the hinterlands between the three forces.
ronyon 08-03-05, 10:17 AM	<Edit>this may have some duplication of others suggestions, hopefully not to much !<Edit>First,a little of topic, but not much... What is the lowest level spell that does Level Drain? Also, are there any actual rules describing a difference between a Character and a Creature? The reason I ask is that the death of a "character" by level drain from any source, leads to spawning. The default spawn is a wight, with individual undead/spells causing different results. I would like to use this tho turn animals into Wights. The goal is to aquire "higher level" undead at the lowest caster levels possible, and also remain "Neutral" by not using 3+ Intelligence creatures. I am also interested in "depleting" a target, in order to affect it with a lower powered spell. This is an idead I got from this wonderful thread! Thanks! As for team ups, Im all for it, and since I usually play Neutral Clerics, with slim access to thoses tasty arcane spells. Any minion that is not fully under ones control is a liability, so here are some ways of keeping a Spellcasting thrall : 1.Simulacrum 2.Hypnosis/Charm/Dominate/Geas 3.Necrotic Domination/Nectrotic Tumor(my new favorit!) 4.Undead Leadership 5.Leadership 6.Clerical Command 7.Diplomacy 8.Intimidate 9.Ice Assasin 10.Control Undead 11.Planar Binding 12.Planar Ally Thats just off the top of my head,with Necrotic Tumor being my current fav. Geas is long lasting but hard to use due to the language encouraging the target to weasel out of the spell. One fix that works on any thrall that doesnt need to think to much, is to Bestow Curse and Greater Bestow Curse them into near mindlessness, making them into blank eyed killers or simple minded spell casting machines. I think I have mentioned this before, but Hypnosis is often overlooked, but the permanant improvement in adittude make it possible to bootstrap a thrall into fanatic loyalty. Back firmly on topic, what about comand/control issues? I mean comunications, and intelligence, things like that. I just saw War of the Worlds, and the idea of using loud speakers to broadcast orders in a unique tounge stuck me as good one.I had already thought that a character could Craft his own language , and then teach it his party, or Craft a magic item that allowed that language to be used. Still, there are too many spells that can translate languages, so perhaps a code is order. For long distance communication, there are many spells, but the question is what would be the most effective/ efficient use of them? I picture Awkened Undead hidden in the boughs of trees at the center of Rune Circles, built to give access to the proper communications spells. Spread out in a web over the land, this network could spy, comunicate and report back to you. Information could be used or sold. One excellent spell for such a net work is the Chain of Eyes, but it is simply a goodc spell,period. Perhaps none of this needed, as there should be plenty of Wraiths and such around to serve as "runners". Transportation is only a real issue for your special "Heavy Hitters", and perhaps the Wraiths could help here as well. What Im thinking of is harnessing their Flight through the use of GhostTouch items. Well, enough rambling for now...
tharivol266 08-03-05, 10:41 AM	Control undead Pros: Can be cast by a 1st level arcane caster with the Precocious Apprentice feat (thanks go to PhaedrusXY for this!!) If you are interested in creating custom made corpses to animate, may I recommend this thread: Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=173080) where can i find this feat? my 3.0 PHB doesnt have the command undead spell so could someone tell me where to find it or post the description and all that good stuff? "deathless master's touch: A living foe of up to one size category larger than a palemaster hit by the pale master's touch must succeed on a fort. save or die. A slain creature automatically animates one round later as a zombie and is under the pale master's control as if he had animated it. Undead created using this power do not count against a pale master's HD total for controlling undead."---unless i missed something it isnt like the spell went into effect therefore i think the undead are permanent
ninja1 08-03-05, 01:31 PM	Howdy tharivol266, Precocious Apprentice can be found in Complete Arcane. It's tricky to find some times because it is not in the normal section dedicated to feats. I forget the page, but it can be found in a sidebar in a section that talks about university study (or some such thing). For 3.5 info, I highly recommend the System Reference Document (SRD) which can be found here: <click here> (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)
bossloki 08-03-05, 03:33 PM	Wands have been mentioned but have you thought about wondrous items? In one game our mage created a collar and ring set with the ghost touch property and command undead. anyone wearing the ring could control the undead wearing the collar. We caught a shadow and he used the "command all your spawn to serve me" routine. It wasn't long before we had a small army of them.
ninja1 08-03-05, 03:53 PM	bossloki, that would be quite tricky to use for Intelligent Undead... from the 3.5 SRD: Command Undead Saving Throw: Will negates; see text This spell allows you some degree of control over an undead creature. Assuming the subject is intelligent, it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way (treat its attitude as friendly). It will not attack you while the spell lasts. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An intelligent commanded undead never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Price wise? spell level (2) x caster level (3) x continuous (2000) x duration greater than 24 hours (0.5) = 6,000 gp..... Kinda steep for something with limited control IMHO. Edit: the big use for Command Undead is controll of mindless skeletons and zombies, preferably the 20 HD variety. :D
Lord Mortanius 08-06-05, 12:46 PM	Another way to increase the amount of undead controllable is to take the Arcane Disciple (Velsharoon, Kiaransalee, etc) and pick up the Deathbound domain.