Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Genzo 10-07-03, 04:55 PM	ok, maybe i should have titled this thread "how does monster summoning work?" , but i thought this title was more catchy. :D Q: lvl 5 wiz summons a celestial bison. can i tell it to attack what i want it to attack? reason i ask is the text states that i can only tell it what to attack if i can communicate with it. am i suppose to interpret that as i need a means of lingual or mental communication to it? or that i just need to be conscious to direct it? assuming the former, do celestial creatures speak anything? intelligence 3 is human-like.. but doesn't guarantee a language. and if this were true, does the bison just go attacking my enemies "to the best of its abilities" (as described in the PH) w/o my being able to intervene w/o a speak-with-animals ability or a level of mindbender? curiouser and curiouser. any clarification would just be appreciated. i've looked for an answer on this message boards under 'summon monster' but haven't found anything i can use.
Seeker95 10-07-03, 08:02 PM	Celestial animals are still animals in every way except [type]. Unless you can speak with animals, you cannot give it any further instructions than what the spell description says. Of course, you could always try saying Mooooo.
Varrik 10-08-03, 12:33 AM	Hm.. Don't Celestial Animals speak or at least understand "Celestial" the language. As a wizard or cleric, you should have taken Celestial as one of your bonus languages. And Fiendish/Infernal? perhaps if you were on the evil side of things. I have a question though, I noticed Celestial Bisons have +13 to Grapple. Hunh? Can it really grapple? Seems like the game rules break down a bit.
Helmo 10-08-03, 04:48 AM	Summoning is not a language dependant spell, so I think you donīt need to speak the creature tongue. Also, the spell states that the summoned creature attacks your enemies or performs other actions for you, so I also think that the same spell that summons the bison, makes it know who your enemies are or the action you want it to perform. Should you want it to attack a particular enemy or perform a complex action (like: smash that door, jump over the fence that is in the other side and then lay still), then I would not allow it unless you can speak its language.
Genzo 10-08-03, 05:03 AM	ok, so what i'm hearing is, unless i can speak with animals, or at least be able to verbally or mentally communicate with the creature, i can't control its specific actions... and it'll just attack my enemies 'best it can. i can't say "no! don't claw it again! grapple, darnit!" :mad: it's a little counter-intuitive to how i imagined 'summon monster" would work, but i can live with the fact that if I can't talk to it, I can't tell it what to do. thnx ya'll. Varrick: i also hoped celestial/fiendish animals at least understood, if not spoke, celestial/abyssal/infernal respectively.. but alas i can find no evidence to support that fact. i wish it were true
Bloodtide_the_Red 10-08-03, 07:28 AM	Read the third sentince under Summon Monster I. It attacks your opponents to the best of it's ability. You don't need to talk to it or communicate at all. you could say you have to point or say something, but you don't have too. I'd say it's a limited weak telepathic link. Whatever you pick as an 'opponet' it attacks. You don't nedd to speak with it. Now IF you can communicate with it you can have it do other things. Just remember that attacking is free and automatic. The way it's written, the summoned creature attacks automaticaly. You have to communicate with it to stop it from attacking. Now communicate does not only mean speech. I'd guess hand signals could work. Or even tricks. BT
Seeker95 10-08-03, 08:48 AM	At low levels, you're basically summoning an attack beast. I might allow someone with animal friendship etc a chance to give a different command. Perhaps DC20. But the low-level versions are not meant to be all that intricate or versatile. Summon --> Attack Beyond the first two levels of Summon Monster, the monsters summoned become those with languages (including Celestial) that allow for more intricate communication and commands.
Ignatius Metamorphic 10-08-03, 04:56 PM	Basically, you can always use a Summon Monster spell as an attack spell. Most summoned monster either speak languages (eg. Djini or Archons) or have the Celestial or Fiendish template. The templates give the creature an intelligence of 3, meaning they can speak at least one language. See the below quote for more details. You should also note that since almost all the summoned creatures have a template they are not animals, but magical beasts. This means that you cannot speak with them using the Speak with Animals spell. Ignatius From the SRD Intelligence: A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).
Genzo 10-09-03, 04:56 AM	that is excellent news! ok, so to recap: when you summon a monster, its initial purpose is to fight your enemies (the creature automatically determines who they are) , to the best of the creature's abilities as soon as it appears. this will be its default action, unless directed to do otherwise. you can direct the creature to do other things or coordinate its fighting if, and only if, you can communicate with it verbally or mentally. this is assumed from reading: ...if you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. under the spell description for monster summon I. ths is rarely a problem since celestial/fiendish creatures speak common, unless other noted, based on the quote from the SRD. other summoned creatures not using the celestial/fiendish template may be another issue. very glad to have a clarification on it all. :D
Seeker95 10-09-03, 08:32 AM	Just one last comment. Celestial creatures would not speak common. Common is the language of the Prime Material Plane. I initially said that the celestial animals do not speak at all. But if they are going to have a language, it would be celestial before it would be common.
Ignatius Metamorphic 10-09-03, 10:00 AM	What language a Celestial (or fiendish) creature speaks is up to DM interpretation. It does make sense that Celestial Creatures would speak Celestial and Fiendish creatures would speak Infernal (or is that Abyssal? I forget.) Tha't how my DM has ruled. I play a Wizard who casts a lot of summoning spells, so I made sure he knows all the extraplanar languages (Celestail, Infernal, Abyssal, Ignan, Aquan, Auran, Terran, Fromina, etc.) The irony is that I can speak to strange extra-planar creatures, but can't speak to the dwarves in my party. Ignatius
Seeker95 10-09-03, 10:38 AM	Ignatius, you sure can speak to the dwarves in your party. Just use Common! :P [and potentially Terran]
Ignatius Metamorphic 10-10-03, 03:28 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Ignatius, you sure can speak to the dwarves in your party. Just use Common! :P [and potentially Terran] It doess't matter what language I speak, they won't listen. Darn Dwarves! ;) Ignatius
Remus the Orange 10-10-03, 04:12 PM	you should have taken Celestial as one of your bonus languages. It is important to note that you cannot do this with the core races. They are limited to the choices listed in bonus languages under their race's description. There are a few exceptions, Wizards getting draconic, as listed in the class description, for example. You will need to spend skill points in Speak Language to gain celestial, etc.
Shatteredtower 10-10-03, 08:43 PM	Originally posted by Remus the Orange You will need to spend skill points in Speak Language to gain celestial, etc. Unless your character is human or half-elf. (And half-orcs are left out in the cold again...)
Shatteredtower 10-11-03, 06:42 AM	Originally posted by Varrik I have a question though, I noticed Celestial Bisons have +13 to Grapple. Hunh? Can it really grapple? Seems like the game rules break down a bit. No, that's a +13 on grapple checks, something entirely different. Granted, I can find nothing in the rules that would prohibit the attempt by a bison to make a grapple attempt unless you read it into the section on starting a grapple on pg. 156 of the PHB, where it states that you need to be able to grab and hold your target. How you can grab with a gore is a difficult question to answer, unless you take a somewhat liberal view as to what constitutes a grapple for game purposes. On another subject, if we were to accept that the language of celestial creatures is Celestial (even if they can't speak it, just understand it), and of fiendish creatures is either Abyssal (for the chaotics) or Infernal (for the lawful), what is the language of neutral evil fiendish creatures?
Seeker95 10-11-03, 08:25 AM	Originally posted by Shatteredtower What is the language of neutral evil fiendish creatures? Talk is Cheap Make War, not Words Smash, Kill, Destroy :devil:
klyre 10-12-03, 04:16 PM	In the game where I have an elven conjurer, the DM has ruled that I can direct summoned creatures telepathically. I see absolutely no way that this is overpowered.
Seeker95 10-12-03, 07:48 PM	Can you also direct the actions of your party telepathically? If you already have telepathy, then I also see no reason why you could not. But if you do not have telepathy, then I see no reason why you would be able to communicate telepathically with your summoned creatures.
incubus 10-12-03, 10:32 PM	Originally posted by Shatteredtower No, that's a +13 on grapple checks, something entirely different. Granted, I can find nothing in the rules that would prohibit the attempt by a bison to make a grapple attempt unless you read it into the section on starting a grapple on pg. 156 of the PHB, where it states that you need to be able to grab and hold your target. How you can grab with a gore is a difficult question to answer, unless you take a somewhat liberal view as to what constitutes a grapple for game purposes. Any attack whose primary purpose is to immobilize an opponent while potentially causing him damage has to be worked as a grapple. So - goring an opponent into the ground and pinning him there with horns and hooves would qualify.
Shatteredtower 10-13-03, 02:04 AM	I agree, Incubus, and would allow it myself. Others, however, might take a more literal reading, noting the use of the word "grab" in the terms necessary for a grapple. We might have to take this subject to another board, however, since it's more pro-wrestling than Doctor Doolittle. ;)
klyre 10-13-03, 11:51 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Can you also direct the actions of your party telepathically? If you already have telepathy, then I also see no reason why you could not. But if you do not have telepathy, then I see no reason why you would be able to communicate telepathically with your summoned creatures. Ok, then, how exactly does the summoned creature know who your enemies are if you can't communicate with it at all? Do you name each and every one of your enemies while casting the spell? I probably should add that, while you may think telepathically directing them is overpowered, the DM does take away some of my xp and gives it to the summoned creatures that helped. Does that even it out for you?
Seeker95 10-13-03, 02:30 PM	No need to even it out for me. I am just asking how you can telepathically speak with anything if you don't have telepathy. The spell description says the summoned creatures attack your enemies. It says that IF YOU CAN speak with them, you can give them simple commands beyond this. Your telepathy stunt removes the if you can from the equation completely. As for how the summoned creatures know which are your enemies... the exact same way a bard's song or bless or Mass Hold Monster can distinguish between friend and foe. It's magic. But the magic is limited by the spell description.
klyre 10-13-03, 03:00 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 I am just asking how you can telepathically speak with anything if you don't have telepathy. The spell description says the summoned creatures attack your enemies. It says that IF YOU CAN speak with them, you can give them simple commands beyond this. Your telepathy stunt removes the if you can from the equation completely. Yes, and it makes it a much more useful spell instead of just another spell to kill people with. And the way the character is supposed to telepathically communicate with it? Easy. House ruled to make that part of the spell. Or do you need more explanation? I have yet to see how it unbalances anything.
Seeker95 10-13-03, 03:52 PM	Nobody said unbalanced. But your "house rule" explanation didn't happen until your third response. You said your DM lets you, but when asked if you have telepathy, you didn't mention house rule. Don't get so defensive when asked why something you are claiming can happen. House rules are an easy response. You gave the hard response, trying to justify it, explain it, or otherwise defend it. I asked if you had telepathy. You didn't. You made it up. You added a non-core rule. Your game has a house rule that defies the wording of the spell, and until you told us about a house rule, we could only see that you were going against the wording of the spell. "My DM lets me" is not always the same as "we have a house rule". For all I know, your DM could simply have been wrong, rather than making up rules. Making up rules is called house rule. No big deal.
klyre 10-13-03, 04:05 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 "My DM lets me" is not always the same as "we have a house rule". I guess I assumed people would infer it was a house rule. My bad.
Seeker95 10-13-03, 04:18 PM	And my bad for getting all haughty. While I disagree with your DM's house rule, I gotta resepct another summoner. My elf sorcerer is going to summon, charm, or run. Those are his combat preferences.
klyre 10-13-03, 04:27 PM	And my summoner summons, blasts (preferably with acid), or (of course) runs. :) But he does save the acid spells for a last ditch effort, because he likes having something left over to dissect or otherwise examine.
Ignatius Metamorphic 10-14-03, 04:10 PM	My strategy has been to turn invisible, summon, and then buff. Not that a celestial polar bear needs much in the way of buffing. ;) However, I'm going to have to change my S.O.P.. I'm getting to the level where too many enemies can see invisible. The last two major battles I've fought, invisibilty has proved to be no defense at all. :( Somone should start a summoners foundation. Ignatius
Varrik 10-14-03, 11:17 PM	Originally posted by Remus the Orange It is important to note that you cannot do this with the core races. They are limited to the choices listed in bonus languages under their race's description. There are a few exceptions, Wizards getting draconic, as listed in the class description, for example. You will need to spend skill points in Speak Language to gain celestial, etc. Please correct me if I am wrong, but you get bonus languages based on your starting intelligence, correct? And you get access to different bonus languages based on your RACE and on your CLASS. So, a Dwarven Cleric with a +3 Int bonus, would be able to select Giant (from Race) or Celestial (from Class) or Infernal (from Class) etc. Sorry, don't have the book in front of me, but will double check when I get home. I'm referring to 3.5, if it makes a difference. As for what do Neutral Evil Creatures speak, I would argue both. Hell, (hah.) they are neutral, and in the game context the neutral evils are always playing the other evils against each other. That would be my arguement, anyway.
Remus the Orange 10-15-03, 11:54 AM	AFAIK - There are only a few classes that increase a character's starting selection of languages. Wizards add Draconic, and Druids add Sylvan to the list of languages they may select at first level. (Unless you are human or half-elf, as pointed out by Shatteredtower). Your Dwarven cleric can only select starting languages from those listed as racial bonus languages. If you find that I am wrong, please let me know . . . It would be really useful to have a greater range of languages to choose from.
Seeker95 10-15-03, 01:41 PM	Remus, the list of languages is a restriction for the Bonus Language from Intelligence only. You can pick any language you want if you trade a skill point for it.
Varrik 10-15-03, 11:23 PM	Originally posted by Remus the Orange AFAIK - There are only a few classes that increase a character's starting selection of languages. Wizards add Draconic, and Druids add Sylvan to the list of languages they may select at first level. (Unless you are human or half-elf, as pointed out by Shatteredtower). Your Dwarven cleric can only select starting languages from those listed as racial bonus languages. If you find that I am wrong, please let me know . . . It would be really useful to have a greater range of languages to choose from. Remus, perhaps you are right. I play a human and started out knowing Celestial, Infernal, and Draconic (I'm a MT btw.) But I thought that I was allowed those languages from the Wizard and Cleric Classes, rather than from the Human Race benefit. It seems to make more sense to me that Clerics (because they deal with divine and infernal things) and Wizards (in their quest for power) would have access to starting off with those languages. I can't understand why a Gnome/Dwarf/etc Cleric wouldn't be able to use Celestial as a bonus language, but a human can....:(
PhaedrusXY 10-16-03, 01:14 AM	Originally posted by Shatteredtower what is the language of neutral evil fiendish creatures? Yugoloths, the primo example of Neutral Evilness, speak Abyssal, Draconic, and Infernal. They can also communicate telepathically with any creature who has a language within 100' of them.
Ignatius Metamorphic 10-16-03, 05:54 PM	For many of the creatures you can summon the languages they can speak are listed in the creature description. The problem is with the "templated" creatures. The get a language due to their 3 intelligence. This is an area where you need to talk with your DM and get a ruling. The DM can rule that "templated" creatures all speak common. This ruling is closest to the rules, is easy for the summoner, but lacks flavour. The DM might rule that Celestial creatures speak celestial and fiendish creatures speak infernal. I could even see DMs using random rolls or creating new languages. I think the key is to talk to the DM before you cast the spell. Most DMs react negatively to being ambushed. Ignatius
Shatteredtower 10-17-03, 07:44 AM	Originally posted by Remus the Orange AFAIK - ... Your Dwarven cleric can only select starting languages from those listed as racial bonus languages. If you find that I am wrong, please let me know . . . It would be really useful to have a greater range of languages to choose from. I've got good news for you then, and should have mentioned it last time: PHB, pg 32, Cleric entry: Bonus Languages: A cleric's bonus language options include Celestial, Abyssal, and Infernal (the languages of good, chaotic evil, and lawful evil outsiders, respectively). These choices are in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of his race... And: PHB, pg 35, Druid entry: Bonus Languages: A druid's bonus language options include Sylvan, the language of woodland creatures. This choice is in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of her race... And: PHB, pg 57, Wizard entry: Bonus Languages: A wizard may substitute Draconic for one of his bonus languages available to the character because of her race... I hope that helps a little bit. :)
Shatteredtower 10-17-03, 08:48 AM	Originally posted by PhaedrusXY Yugoloths, the primo example of Neutral Evilness, speak Abyssal, Draconic, and Infernal. They can also communicate telepathically with any creature who has a language within 100' of them. My first thought when I looked at this was .oO(But we're not discussing yugoloths, we're discussing fiendish creatures. And it doesn't even answer the question of what their native language is!) Then I started looking at the various celestials and fiends, and what languages they spoke (pardon me for skipping demodands -- I know they speak Abyssal and their own tongue, but am not sure if they know a third language): Angels speak Celestial, Draconic, and Infernal Demons speak Abyssal, Celestial, and Draconic Devils speak Celestial, Draconic, and Infernal Eladrin (based on the entries for bralanis and ghaeles) speak Celestial, Draconic, and Infernal Guardinals speak Celestial, Draconic, and Infernal Yugoloths speak Abyssal, Draconic, and Infernal I find this rather curious, because it suggests that the Common Tongue of Celestial/Fiendish communication is Draconic. It would be Celestial if yugoloths spoke it, or Infernal if demons knew it. Since wizards may take Draconic as a bonus language, I'm inclined to say that whatever they summon (as long as it's a fiendish or celestial creature) will understand draconic, while creatures summoned by clerics will understand the appropriate celestial/fiendish tongue known by the summoner (save that Chaotic Evil creatures won't know Infernal and Abyssal will only be understood by creatures that are Chaotic or Neutral Evil). Naturally, if the cleric knows Draconic, or the wizard knows Celestial or one of the other tongues, those could be allowed to work with appropriate creatures. This is a houserule, naturally, but it's based on what we've been given, and we've been given just enough to know that we require a houserule, since no rule is provided to cover all circumstances. If you need just one default, then Draconic does seem to make the most sense under the circumstances. If you allow a bit more flexibility, then Abyssal, Celestial, and Infernal should be effective where appropriate. (Of course, things can get a bit odd if you go nuts with it, and have Celestial used to direct Chaotic and Lawful fiends, or Infernal used to command celestial creatures. Lacking any concrete rules, there's precedent enough for it, but I don't think I'll be quite that flexible with it, at least for my own rules.) It's still not much help to dwarven or halfling bards or sorcerers, the only two races that don't list Draconic as a starting language. (Heh, I can hear the half-orcs crowing at the dwarves now: "Does Mr. Dwarfie not know Draconic? Awww...") Then again, this isn't much hindrance to bards, and the dwarven sorcerers can start with knowledge of Terran, which is handy when they start summoning earth elementals. Basing outer planar summoning on axiomatic/anarchic creatures would get more confusing. The only examples we have for those are the Inevitables, which speak Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal, and the native language of their first victim, and the Slaad, which speak Slaadi (with the brighter ones speaking Common). Suddenly the idea of Draconic as the Common Tongue of the Outer Planes breaks down, and the demons are grateful that someone else can speak their language (even if they are annoyingly lawful beings), but most slaadi can't understand anyone who isn't slaadi, and the rest can only understand people from the Material Plane -- barring fiendish telepathy or the celestial gift of tongues, of course. Maybe the system could have used just a little bit more work here?
Seeker95 10-17-03, 11:47 AM	Originally posted by Shatteredtower Maybe the system could have used just a little bit more work here? Why should the system do it? You just did an excellent job on your own! :P [Thanks for sorting through this. I like whta you have done, and will propose it to my DM, as well as use it in my own campaign.]
Remus the Orange 10-17-03, 12:01 PM	I've got good news for you then, and should have mentioned it last time: Thanks Shatteredtower, that is good news . . . guess I need to go back and read the PHB again. :)
Ignatius Metamorphic 10-17-03, 01:32 PM	Wow! Great research Shattertower. Thanks for doing the work. I guess I didn't have to drop 20 skill points into languages after all. :nonono: Ignatius