Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RikuKupo 06-04-07, 03:32 PM	I know all the obvious stuff like invisibility, but what are some good esoteric uses for some other spells a rogue might benefit from?
Everdreaming 06-04-07, 03:36 PM	Wand of Incendiary Slime. One of my personal favorite spells. Like grease, but you can set it on fire.
BW0222 06-04-07, 04:33 PM	RikuKupo, I know all the obvious stuff like invisibility, but what are some good esoteric uses for some other spells a rogue might benefit from? Backup Cleric Often the rogue has some advantages operating as backup cleric -- against undead and other non-crit creatures, when forced into ranged combat, etc. the rogue might be more helpful buffing, protecting, or curing. Wands of cure wounds, bless, protection from evil, etc. Scrolls higher level spells such as prayer, cure serious, etc. can be extremely helpful. The ability to tumble can also make the rogue better at getting to folks in emergency healing. Defensive Wands/scrolls of shield, protection from evil, mirror image, blur, displacement, blink, greater invisibility, etc. are great for rogues. Often casters don't have time to buff the rogue and the fighter. Silence IMO, a wand of silence is worthy of its one place. Serious Buffing Scrolls of divine might or rightous might can be extremely useful. As are enlarge and others. Obscure Miscelleneous Spells There are a lot of spells, particularly those from lists none of the PCs might have, which are great to have. For example, pass without trace, detect plants or animals, speak with animals, comprehend languages, stone shape, disquise self, etc. Often you can select domain or scrolls from classes which permit the scroll cheaper and their use can be extremely useful.
Empirate 06-06-07, 12:32 PM	Think weaponlike spells, for SA damage. Produce Flame comes to mind... ranged touch attack, usable once per caster level for one casting, respectable damage. Or for melee: Flame Blade. Sneak attacking with touch attacks hurts a lot.
Psikerlord 06-06-07, 05:09 PM	off the top of my head, I'd say scrolls/wands of.. shield, mirror image, haste, stoneskin (maybe too expensive), fly, evards black tentacles, polymorph (if allowed in your campaign), dispel magic, dimension jumper.
tarkin 06-06-07, 05:20 PM	Grease is an overlooked one. Balancing = flatfooted
mostholy2 06-06-07, 05:26 PM	For low level spells there are a whole bunch of spells to improve skill checks for that search/disarm device check that you HAVE to make. Accelerated movement, camoulflage, linked perception, surefoot, and divine insight to name a few. Improvisation from spell compendium is a great 1st level bard spell. Alter self for to go into trogladyte form for extra natural attacks and natural AC is great for rogue flankers. Shield for extra shield AC.
RikuKupo 06-06-07, 09:58 PM	Think weaponlike spells, for SA damage. Produce Flame comes to mind... ranged touch attack, usable once per caster level for one casting, respectable damage. Or for melee: Flame Blade. Sneak attacking with touch attacks hurts a lot. You can SA with magic touch attacks? :blink:
CryoSilver 06-06-07, 10:21 PM	Improved Invis, False Life, Divine Favor, Haste, Wraithstrike, Dimension Door, Cure Critical Wounds, Greater Dispel Magic.
Psikerlord 06-06-07, 10:53 PM	Tarkin, when you say balancing = flat footed, is that a quote from a rulebook, or a personal DM view? It makes sense to me, but just wondering if it is a rulebook quote from somewhere
Nathreet 06-07-07, 12:13 AM	You can SA with magic touch attacks? :blink: YES! The rules explicitly allow this. Both melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. However, you are limited to 1 sneak attack per volley (no multi-sneak attacks from multi-ray spells).
Nom 06-07-07, 01:13 AM	Tarkin, when you say balancing = flat footed, is that a quote from a rulebook, or a personal DM view? It makes sense to me, but just wondering if it is a rulebook quote from somewhereLook up "Balance". A balancing character with fewer than 5 ranks in Balance is flat-footed.
Beware of Kobold 06-07-07, 02:22 AM	the ultimate "coolness" spell for a rogue... Simulacrum! make your own "mini-me"s (mini in terms of levels, not size) Have them go out and do your dirty work, posing as you, or make copies of people with abilities you don't have, such as real spellcasting powers to heal, buff, etc. you... or if your rogue is a real twisted sort, steal the queen's hairbrush and make your own personal royal consort! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-07-07, 02:34 AM	Grease is an overlooked one. Balancing = flatfooted OMG! :eek: Thanks for this! Also wand of Sheild - cheap 1st level spell, and invaluable for my TWF rogue. If you crunch the numbers, btw, it turns out that a wand of cure mod gives the most healing per gp.
Yokomohoyo 06-07-07, 02:58 AM	Also make sure you have atleast 1 fireball or lighting bolt wand and 1 sound lance. The fireball or lighting bolt for groups and for that lone mage that is hurtting the party have a sound lance for its fort half save (its a shame it can only hit 1 target at a time though). A wand with knock for those peskey locked doors. A wand of true strike for helping your sneak attack along with a wand of shocking grasp. A solid fog wand for anti range attacks. A wand of sleep to get around the lower level encounters. Maybe a wand of magic missles or chain magic missles for an always hit the baddy... Man a rouge trying to compensate for a wizard can get expensive.
Nom 06-07-07, 06:39 AM	If you crunch the numbers, btw, it turns out that a wand of cure mod gives the most healing per gp.Eh? wand of cure light wounds: 750 gp = 15 gp per charge. Heals 1d8+1 (mean 5.5). wand of cure moderate wounds: 4500 gp = 90 gp per charge. Heals 2d8+3 (mean 12). How is 6x the price for 2.5x the healing more efficient?
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-07-07, 08:04 AM	Eh? wand of cure light wounds: 750 gp = 15 gp per charge. Heals 1d8+1 (mean 5.5). wand of cure moderate wounds: 4500 gp = 90 gp per charge. Heals 2d8+3 (mean 12). How is 6x the price for 2.5x the healing more efficient? Hmm. Well, I did work it out once. Must have gotten it wrong.
RikuKupo 06-07-07, 12:39 PM	YES! The rules explicitly allow this. Both melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. However, you are limited to 1 sneak attack per volley (no multi-sneak attacks from multi-ray spells). :evillaugh OMG... I never knew that! :evillaugh I can kill a fighter with a SA from ray of frost... :evillaugh What book is simulacrum in? Sounds kinda like create fetch in CS.
Alvoros Darkleaf 06-07-07, 01:36 PM	My 13th level Rogue/Dread Commando's most commonly used item (with UMD) is a wand of Acid Splash. While invisible, blinking, or while the opponent is without dex etc., the silly little 375gp wand does (for my character) 1d3+7d6 of acid damage with the sneak attack mixed in. Bonus...no SR and no SAVE to resist. Ranged touch for a rogue rarely misses as well. Of course, invisibility is always used when possible, as well as blink, but Greater Blink is my ultimate "must have" power spell though...go anywhere, no miss chance etc. Alvo
green_yawgmoth 06-07-07, 02:17 PM	YES! The rules explicitly allow this. Both melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. However, you are limited to 1 sneak attack per volley (no multi-sneak attacks from multi-ray spells).Also remember that "volley" means spells like scorching ray, where they all go off at once. Spells like produce flame that let you take a full attack action, will get SA damage on each attack. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Dheran 06-09-07, 06:29 PM	Wands are cheaper than scrolls, so you'll get more bang for your gp going that way. They're also better in combat: their use doesn't provoke AoOs (and Concentration is a cross-class skill for Rogues), and as weapon-like objects they can be drawn as a free action with movement or via the Quick Draw feat. You want to enhance your ability to sneak attack. Greater Invisibility is the usual answer, which is why your opponents will have counters for invisibility. Instead, try Ebon Eyes (on yourself) and Deeper Darkness (which you can handily cast ahead of time on an object you keep covered until you need the spell's effect). You should note that you can get metamagic effects pre-applied to wands or scrolls. Widen Spell makes a spell three levels higher, so you can add it to a 1st level spell and still meet the 4th level limit for wands. Widened Grease covers a 20' x 20' square. Extend Spell is often handy for reducing the total cost of spell charges, as it will double the duration for just a +1 spell level cost instead of the usual x2 caster level cost. Spells of levels 2 and higher end up being cheaper this way. Vampiric Touch is nice if you're facing tough opponents, as all the damage dealt -- including sneak attack damage -- comes back to you as temporary hit points. You might also want to "think outside the box" for some wands that aren't available to Wizards. Assassin spells are very helpful for Rogues. Or simply spells like Control Water: a 4th level Cleric/Druid spell, but 6th level Wizard/Sorcerer.
Dheran 06-09-07, 06:34 PM	Improved Invis, False Life, Divine Favor, Haste, Wraithstrike, Dimension Door, Cure Critical Wounds, Greater Dispel Magic. Spells with duration 1 round, such as Wraithstrike, are ineffective when cast via UMD, as casting them takes a standard action and the spell ends before you can benefit from it.
Beware of Kobold 06-11-07, 04:37 PM	:evillaugh OMG... I never knew that! :evillaugh I can kill a fighter with a SA from ray of frost... :evillaugh What book is simulacrum in? Sounds kinda like create fetch in CS. simulacrum is from a really obscure Wizards book called the Player's Handbook... hehe
Father Dale 06-13-07, 01:59 PM	Any of the Orb spells, including the lesser versions, are great for rogues with UMD. No save (at least for damage), No SR, add sneak attack damage. Shrink Item is almost a must have. Use it to transport large valuable items. Dimension Door is a good one for rogues too. Get in and out of trouble with ease! Grease is good, and can double as a huge escape artist booster if you cast it on yourself. Secure Shelter wands lets you sleep comfortably at night rather than on a bed of rocks with a pillow of twigs.
SunTzuWarmaster 06-13-07, 07:27 PM	Just like to point some things out: 1 - the most healing that we have attained is from a Wand of Lesser Vigor 2 - Thieves, in general, like the following spells: Invisibility (and greater), Grease, Glitterdust, Evards Black Tentacles, Summon Monster (if you can get it to flank, a summon monster 1 is good enough), Silence 3 - Nothing says "making a clean get-away" like a Teleport or Dimension Door. Scrolls of these are acceptable 4 - there are a few spells that allow you to SA undead/plants/constructs (wraithstrike? vinestrike? golemstrike?). Wands of these are good. 5 - Ord of Acid is a 0th level cantrip. You can sneak attack with this ranged Touch Attack. Also, good for wrecking locks because acid ignores hardness. 6 - Circlet of Blasting - also a ranged touch attack, but a bit pricey.
Nom 06-13-07, 08:31 PM	Also, good for wrecking locks because acid ignores hardness.Is this a specific exception for orb of acid, or a general rule? PH pg 165 isn't saying that acid and sonic ignore hardness, merely that they are not first reduced as are fire, cold and electricity.
SunTzuWarmaster 06-13-07, 10:03 PM	from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#hardness Energy Attacks Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness. Most of the time an adamantine dagger is better, but you don't always have one of those.
Nom 06-14-07, 01:51 AM	And see FAQ 18 Mar 2007, pg 68 and 91 that clarify the correct interpretation.
Yokomohoyo 06-15-07, 02:33 AM	5 - Ord of Acid is a 0th level cantrip. You can sneak attack with this ranged Touch Attack. Also, good for wrecking locks because acid ignores hardness. Sorry to bother but Orb of Acid is a 4th level spell, I think your mistaking it with Orb of Acid Lesser wich is a 1st level spell or Acid Splash wich is the level 0 spell.
Father Dale 06-15-07, 09:24 AM	Acid Splash is the 0 level spell. Ranged touch, no save, no sr, deals 1d3 acid damage. Not very good for damaging objects, as many objects have a hardness greater than 3. Would be completely ineffective against locks, as locks are metal and would indeed have a hardness greater than 3.
RikuKupo 06-15-07, 11:35 AM	simulacrum is from a really obscure Wizards book called the Player's Handbook... hehe ...:thinks: How the heck have I never seen that before? :doh: :embarrass Would a permanent greater blindsight (savage species) be worth it? I like the idea of permanent spells
arjomanes 06-15-07, 02:45 PM	The 3rd level cleric spell Darkfire is nice for full-attacking ranged rogues. Up to 5d6 damage + sneak attack per attack. Ranged touch attack. Lasts 1 round/level. A maximized darkfire scroll will allow 30dmg/attack. It will cost 1650 instead of 375 gp, but you'll get the full damage instead of just 2d6. So an 8th level rogue who can do four attacks/round on a full attack (twf+rapid shot+1 iterative attack) could do 4 X (30+4d6SA) dmg per round against flatfooted opponents. So that's an average of about 168 dmg/round for 5 rounds (about 850 dmg total, or about 2g for each hit point of dmg, so a little pricey). Ranged Touch attacks. Not too shabby for an 8th level rogue. Plus the fire's invisible to opponents without darkvision for extra coolness.
tarkin 06-15-07, 02:55 PM	One more good low level spell for Rogues: Leomund's Tiny Hut 3rd level Last two line reads: Although the force field is opaque from the outside, it is transparent from within. Missiles, weapons, and most spell effects can pass through the hut without affecting it, although the occupants cannot be seen from outside the hut (they have total concealment). So you are not seen, which means opponents are denied their Dex which means you can Sneak Attack via a ranged attack. Only problem is ranged sneak attacks are limited to 30 ft and unless you have 9 allies, they can just enter the hut.