Cooperating to create magic item [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cooperating to create magic item [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elboran
03-12-06, 12:15 PM A Rules of the Game article concerning the creation of magic items (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a) says:

"Two or more characters can work together to create an item, with each character providing one or more prerequisites."

The phrase "one or more prerequisites" suprises me, as it implies someone can assist in creating a magic item even if one does not have any item creation feats.

For example consider Pipes of Pain. From the SRD its prerequisites are: "CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must have the bardic music class feature, sound burst;". A cleric of CL6 can have Craft Wonderous Item and cast Sound Burst, and so with the help of any Bard (even one who has no item creation feats of any kind) can produce this item.

Though the interpretation of the rules seems clear, it just seems wrong to me. I'd expect the item creation feat to be required of all creators. One can only imagine the collaborative process between the aforementioned Cleric and Bard: "Ok, stand over there. Good. Hold your left hand over the forge. Now infuse a small amount of your life experience into it... What do you mean you don't know how to do that? Everybody knows how to do that."
The Simbul
03-12-06, 12:25 PM You are not required to have the item creation feat to participate in cooperative item creation. In fact, a character who provides a prerequisite other than the item creation feat (such as a spell, race, class, feat, skill, or ability requirement) can still be designated as the creator of the item, and in turn pay the XP cost and have the item's caster level set by theirs.
risner
03-12-06, 10:45 PM For example consider Pipes of Pain. From the SRD its prerequisites are: "CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must have the bardic music class feature, sound burst;". A cleric of CL6 can have Craft Wonderous Item and cast Sound Burst, and so with the help of any Bard (even one who has no item creation feats of any kind) can produce this item.

Whenever an item has a "the creator must" in the requirements, the creator must have that. In this case, it is bardic music class feature. The spell Sound Burst is not required by the creator. It can be supplied by another person, by a scroll you cast, or by a city mage, etc.

According to the SRD, "two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator." It is clear that two people can cooperate and either can be the creatore, but it is unclear (at least to me) if that means someone can be the creator without also needing the Item Creation Feat. Can anyone show reference to an example of two people with only one with Item Creation Feat and the one without the feat is able to be the creator?
tresh
03-13-06, 06:03 AM There are many examples in novels and stories of cooperative item creation and since most of them were some sort of ritual, usually there were followers or believers of some cause (0-lvl commoners, who don't have item creation feats).

While rules are not clear on this, I allways assumed that the person with item creation feat must be creator (and must pay XP cost) but those helping out don't need item creation feats.

I think that ruling on this subject should be left for DM to decide, since it would directly affect their game.

I'm somewhat fond of 2nd edition item creation rules since they gave a lot of flavor to magical items. Right now, in my game, I'm using something in between. Creator of item needs item creation feats but using special items and materials or special rituals can lower or remove XP cost of items.

For example: Using fire dragons teeth or claws for fireburst weapons or gathering of population of wererat infested town in church for ritual of creating bane weapon.

There are few more examples (though for metamagic spell components) in Unearthed Arcana that can be used for special materials. Of course DM has final say weather he/she will allow it.
Nom
03-13-06, 08:23 AM Whenever an item has a "the creator must" in the requirements, the creator must have that. In this case, it is bardic music class feature.Can you provide any evidence for this? The pre-requisite rules say that one or more characters can each provide one or more pre-reqs. The rules for "designating a creator" only apply for the purposes of caster level and XP (DMG pg 215).

Caster level is actually the tricky requirement. The character supplying the caster level (and thus XP) must be able to meet any minimum CL requirements arising from the pre-reqs, since that is the minimum CL for the item.
IMarvinTPA
03-13-06, 10:16 AM Can a cleric and a wizard scribe a cleric spell scroll while the wizard provides the Scribe Scroll feat?

IMarv
Traevanon
03-13-06, 10:49 AM In fact, a character who provides a prerequisite other than the item creation feat (such as a spell, race, class, feat, skill, or ability requirement) can still be designated as the creator of the item, and in turn pay the XP cost and have the item's caster level set by theirs.

I dont want to get entangled in this whole debate again, but let me just say that I disagree.

According to my reading, and common sense, fairness, balance and the spirit of the rules in my judgement the sentence in the DMG that seems to allow people to pay their own XP cost for items created by another is in error.

Let me quote:

CRAFT WONDROUS ITEM [ITEM CREATION]
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price.
You can also mend a broken wondrous item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one.

The emphasis is mine, and it should be noted that I am in the minority in this view.

The consequences of allowing players to pay their own XP cost as long as they can provide any single prerequisite are just too great to ignore. The DM is well within his rights to require the creator and the "designated creator" to be the same person.
risner
03-13-06, 11:50 AM Can you provide any evidence for this? The pre-requisite rules say that one or more characters can each provide one or more pre-reqs. The rules for "designating a creator" only apply for the purposes of caster level and XP (DMG pg 215).

Common Sense?
I think we are not communicating tho. I will quote two items to show the difference:

Pipes of Pain:
CL 6th (not a requirement)
Craft Wondrous Item (a requirement)
Creator must have bardic music class feature (a requirement)
Sound Burst (a requirement)
Price 12000
Weight 3 lb

and

Pipes of Haunting:
CL 4th (not a requirement)
Craft Wondrous Item (a requirement)
Scare (a requirement)
Price 6000
Weight 3 lb

The first one has a requirement that specifically requires the creator to have the bardic music. How else do you interpret "the creator must have X" if not that the creator must have X? Since none of the tradition requirements that can be pawned off (like Scare) have "the creator must have Scare".
BlackFiend
03-13-06, 05:58 PM Can a cleric and a wizard scribe a cleric spell scroll while the wizard provides the Scribe Scroll feat?

IMarv

Yes, the wizard could try...but would fail. The scribe scroll feat specifically states "You can create a scroll of any spell that you know".

No room for collaborative work. You have to sit on your own potty.
Nom
03-13-06, 06:27 PM The consequences of allowing players to pay their own XP cost as long as they can provide any single prerequisite ...and meet the minimum caster level. The guy who pays the XP cost is the guy whose caster level gets used. At a bare minimum, only someone who has qualified to take an item creation feat can be the creator (partial exception for scrolls, wands, potions and staves that can have a CL less than the CL of the item creation feat).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elboran 03-12-06, 12:15 PM	A Rules of the Game article concerning the creation of magic items (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a) says: "Two or more characters can work together to create an item, with each character providing one or more prerequisites." The phrase "one or more prerequisites" suprises me, as it implies someone can assist in creating a magic item even if one does not have any item creation feats. For example consider Pipes of Pain. From the SRD its prerequisites are: "CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must have the bardic music class feature, sound burst;". A cleric of CL6 can have Craft Wonderous Item and cast Sound Burst, and so with the help of any Bard (even one who has no item creation feats of any kind) can produce this item. Though the interpretation of the rules seems clear, it just seems wrong to me. I'd expect the item creation feat to be required of all creators. One can only imagine the collaborative process between the aforementioned Cleric and Bard: "Ok, stand over there. Good. Hold your left hand over the forge. Now infuse a small amount of your life experience into it... What do you mean you don't know how to do that? Everybody knows how to do that."
The Simbul 03-12-06, 12:25 PM	You are not required to have the item creation feat to participate in cooperative item creation. In fact, a character who provides a prerequisite other than the item creation feat (such as a spell, race, class, feat, skill, or ability requirement) can still be designated as the creator of the item, and in turn pay the XP cost and have the item's caster level set by theirs.
risner 03-12-06, 10:45 PM	For example consider Pipes of Pain. From the SRD its prerequisites are: "CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must have the bardic music class feature, sound burst;". A cleric of CL6 can have Craft Wonderous Item and cast Sound Burst, and so with the help of any Bard (even one who has no item creation feats of any kind) can produce this item. Whenever an item has a "the creator must" in the requirements, the creator must have that. In this case, it is bardic music class feature. The spell Sound Burst is not required by the creator. It can be supplied by another person, by a scroll you cast, or by a city mage, etc. According to the SRD, "two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator." It is clear that two people can cooperate and either can be the creatore, but it is unclear (at least to me) if that means someone can be the creator without also needing the Item Creation Feat. Can anyone show reference to an example of two people with only one with Item Creation Feat and the one without the feat is able to be the creator?
tresh 03-13-06, 06:03 AM	There are many examples in novels and stories of cooperative item creation and since most of them were some sort of ritual, usually there were followers or believers of some cause (0-lvl commoners, who don't have item creation feats). While rules are not clear on this, I allways assumed that the person with item creation feat must be creator (and must pay XP cost) but those helping out don't need item creation feats. I think that ruling on this subject should be left for DM to decide, since it would directly affect their game. I'm somewhat fond of 2nd edition item creation rules since they gave a lot of flavor to magical items. Right now, in my game, I'm using something in between. Creator of item needs item creation feats but using special items and materials or special rituals can lower or remove XP cost of items. For example: Using fire dragons teeth or claws for fireburst weapons or gathering of population of wererat infested town in church for ritual of creating bane weapon. There are few more examples (though for metamagic spell components) in Unearthed Arcana that can be used for special materials. Of course DM has final say weather he/she will allow it.
Nom 03-13-06, 08:23 AM	Whenever an item has a "the creator must" in the requirements, the creator must have that. In this case, it is bardic music class feature.Can you provide any evidence for this? The pre-requisite rules say that one or more characters can each provide one or more pre-reqs. The rules for "designating a creator" only apply for the purposes of caster level and XP (DMG pg 215). Caster level is actually the tricky requirement. The character supplying the caster level (and thus XP) must be able to meet any minimum CL requirements arising from the pre-reqs, since that is the minimum CL for the item.
IMarvinTPA 03-13-06, 10:16 AM	Can a cleric and a wizard scribe a cleric spell scroll while the wizard provides the Scribe Scroll feat? IMarv
Traevanon 03-13-06, 10:49 AM	In fact, a character who provides a prerequisite other than the item creation feat (such as a spell, race, class, feat, skill, or ability requirement) can still be designated as the creator of the item, and in turn pay the XP cost and have the item's caster level set by theirs. I dont want to get entangled in this whole debate again, but let me just say that I disagree. According to my reading, and common sense, fairness, balance and the spirit of the rules in my judgement the sentence in the DMG that seems to allow people to pay their own XP cost for items created by another is in error. Let me quote: CRAFT WONDROUS ITEM [ITEM CREATION] Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd. Benefit: You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price. You can also mend a broken wondrous item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place. Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one. The emphasis is mine, and it should be noted that I am in the minority in this view. The consequences of allowing players to pay their own XP cost as long as they can provide any single prerequisite are just too great to ignore. The DM is well within his rights to require the creator and the "designated creator" to be the same person.
risner 03-13-06, 11:50 AM	Can you provide any evidence for this? The pre-requisite rules say that one or more characters can each provide one or more pre-reqs. The rules for "designating a creator" only apply for the purposes of caster level and XP (DMG pg 215). Common Sense? I think we are not communicating tho. I will quote two items to show the difference: Pipes of Pain: CL 6th (not a requirement) Craft Wondrous Item (a requirement) Creator must have bardic music class feature (a requirement) Sound Burst (a requirement) Price 12000 Weight 3 lb and Pipes of Haunting: CL 4th (not a requirement) Craft Wondrous Item (a requirement) Scare (a requirement) Price 6000 Weight 3 lb The first one has a requirement that specifically requires the creator to have the bardic music. How else do you interpret "the creator must have X" if not that the creator must have X? Since none of the tradition requirements that can be pawned off (like Scare) have "the creator must have Scare".
BlackFiend 03-13-06, 05:58 PM	Can a cleric and a wizard scribe a cleric spell scroll while the wizard provides the Scribe Scroll feat? IMarv Yes, the wizard could try...but would fail. The scribe scroll feat specifically states "You can create a scroll of any spell that you know". No room for collaborative work. You have to sit on your own potty.
Nom 03-13-06, 06:27 PM	The consequences of allowing players to pay their own XP cost as long as they can provide any single prerequisite ...and meet the minimum caster level. The guy who pays the XP cost is the guy whose caster level gets used. At a bare minimum, only someone who has qualified to take an item creation feat can be the creator (partial exception for scrolls, wands, potions and staves that can have a CL less than the CL of the item creation feat).