Cooperative Spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cooperative Spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RTNNS
02-23-06, 06:02 PM Can anyone tell me where to find the Cooperative Spell information, the game we are in right now for the fist time has two spell casters and are going up against Drow.. "Spell Resistance" is going to be a problem so we need to increase the DC of the spells. Any help would be great.. thanks.

2nd , Anyone have any good ideas of how to deal with Drow?
:D
runestar
02-23-06, 09:21 PM Don't bother. Cooperative spell sucks, considering that you are casting multiple spells to get a single spell with a small bonus to save dc and caster lv check to overcome sr. You are better off spending your feat slots on feats that directly improve your ability to overcome sr, or use spells like assay resistance, or even better, cast spells that eschew sr altogether, like those orb spells from CA or evard's tentacles.
kjenks
02-23-06, 11:04 PM I've heard this concept before, but I hadn't looked up the feat. I don't think you're reading it right.

"While the two of you are adjacent, you and another spellcaster with the Cooperative Spell feat can simultaneously cast the same spell at the same time in the same round. Add +2 to the save DC of the cooperatively cast spells and +1 caster level checks to beat the target's spell resistance (if any), using the higher base DC and level check of either caster."

It seems to me as if both spells go off and they both benefit from higher caster level and higher DC. From that point on in the feat description, the authors refer to the spell (singular) for determining caster level and save DC -- but that's right, because each spell will have a CL and DC.

In the "two wizards and two sorcerers" example (CA, p.76), it would have been much clearer if they had shown caster levels, DC calculations and damage dice rolled for all four Fireball spells.

Here's how I think that example should work:

Three wizards (caster level 5, Int 20 with Spell Focus: Evocation, caster level 7, Int 17 and caster level 9, Int 18) and one sorcerer (caster level 7, Cha 17) standing in a circle all have Cooperative Spell. The three wizards ready an action and the sorcerer casts his 1 round casting time metamagic Fireball. The save DCs for all Fireballs are based on the 5th level wizard because he has the highest save DC (10+3+5+1 = DC 19), +4 for their Cooperative Spell for DC 23 total. The caster levels for all Fireballs are based on the level 9 wizard, +3 for their Cooperative Spell for CL 12 total. (But a Fireball maxes out at 10d6.)

The four Fireball spells (CL 12, DC 23 each) can be cast in different areas or overlapping areas.

The reason I used only one sorcerer in my example is to avoid the problem with trying to ready a 1 round casting time spell, since one can only ready a standard action.
Vaelan
02-23-06, 11:30 PM If the feat consumed one of the spells to improve one of the others, it would explicitly state that.
tarkin
02-24-06, 08:48 AM The feat does not "consume two spells" to get one.

Instead it is two people cooperatively casting a single spell.

Hence the word Cooperative casting. This is clear in the feat, as long as you are not actively trying to twist the feat into something it is not. The Sage has confirmed that it works this way. Two people cast one spell.

Yes, it does suck by itself.

It is SUPPOSED to suck.

The feat is intended as a pre-req for some of the most POWERFULL PRESTIGE classes around. The prestige classes let anyone, Sorceror or Wizard cast any spell on their list. Effectively it teaches you every single spell on your book, even if you are a Sorceror.

The feat sucks by itself, but the prestige class it lets you take is clearly worth wasting learnign a bad feat.
kjenks
02-24-06, 09:38 AM The Sage has confirmed that it works this way. Two people cast one spell.

Apparently, that Sage Advice entry never made it into the FAQ. Do you recall which issue that was in?
Vaelan
02-24-06, 10:23 AM The Sage has confirmed that it works this way. Two people cast one spell.
I would appreciate it if you would do the following, Tarkin:

1. Give a specific source for your statements.
2. Tell me why I should give a damn what the Sage says.

Thanks.
Neocon
02-24-06, 11:25 AM ... some of the most POWERFULL PRESTIGE classes around. The prestige classes let anyone, Sorceror or Wizard cast any spell on their list. Effectively it teaches you every single spell on your book, even if you are a Sorceror.

Which prestige class would that be?
tarkin
02-24-06, 11:52 AM 1) I do no remember which of the Many Dragon magazine articles the Sage's Advice was in. I don't have them all, so can't check them all.

2) The reason you should give a damn about the Sage is that the Sage has almost always been one of the people that actually WROTE the game. For a long time it was Skip Williams. If you check the cover of your PHB, you will see his name there. I think, but am not sure that it was Skip who gave the answer I referred to.

3) The Prestige Class in question is Mage of the Arcane Order/Guild Mage Complete Arcane, Page 49. (Back in 3.0 they also had a similar Waterdeep only guild mage that had the feet).
Neocon
02-24-06, 12:08 PM Ahhhh yes, the spellpool.

That is a fantastic one.
Saric
02-24-06, 02:35 PM Actually, the feat is pretty good, sure you "waste" another spell, but if one of the casters is a min/max dc kinda guy and the other is min/max caster level kinda gal, it pretty much makes most spells work all the time.. and a +2 dc is pretty good to boot..
tarkin
02-24-06, 03:02 PM It takes a lot min-maxing on the DC and caster level to make it better than casting two spells. I have never seen that much min-maxing done.

I just re-read the feat. If you pay attention to the grammer, it becomes quite clear that only one spell is cast.

From the very end of it, Special section:

First of all note that they take a lot of care telling you how to get the caster level and the DC. If this was a "both spells go off" thing, then this would be unneccesary. They could avoid the several paragraphs and simplify things considerable. Not conclusive, but definitely strongly indicative.

Second of all, see the blue bolded portion? If it were two spells coming into existence, the word would be "ARE", not is.

The base DC of the spell's save is equal to the highest save DC among the cooperative casters (as determined by relevant ability scores, other feats, special abilities, or items) +4 (+2 for the first cooperative caster and +1 for each of the other two). As well, whoever has the highest caster level determines the base caster level check, which gains a +3 bonus (+1 for each cooperative caster).
Gnarl
02-24-06, 03:11 PM Actually, the feat is pretty good, sure you "waste" another spell, but if one of the casters is a min/max dc kinda guy and the other is min/max caster level kinda gal, it pretty much makes most spells work all the time.. and a +2 dc is pretty good to boot..

Oh please, it sucks. Both could cast it for a better effect.
RTNNS
02-25-06, 11:28 AM "While the two of you are adjacent, you and another spellcaster with the Cooperative Spell feat can simultaneously cast the same spell at the same time in the same round.
Add +2 to the save DC of the cooperatively cast spells and +1 caster level checks to beat the target's spell resistance

(if any), using the higher base DC and level check of either caster."

The four Fireball spells (CL 12, DC 23 each) can be cast in different areas or overlapping areas.

So thats +1 Per Caster Level

2 wizards = 2 Spells?
or
2 wizards = 1 Spells with higher DC and +? to Beat SR. This is where we need it in the SR.
kjenks
02-25-06, 03:18 PM So thats +1 Per Caster Level

2 wizards = 2 Spells?
or
2 wizards = 1 Spells with higher DC and +? to Beat SR. This is where we need it in the SR.

Two wizards, two spells, both spells get the increased DC and CL. Maybe.
runestar
02-25-06, 09:57 PM The way I read it, its the second option. 2 mages cast 2 fireballs, but the net result is a single improved(barely) fireball. :(

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RTNNS 02-23-06, 06:02 PM	Can anyone tell me where to find the Cooperative Spell information, the game we are in right now for the fist time has two spell casters and are going up against Drow.. "Spell Resistance" is going to be a problem so we need to increase the DC of the spells. Any help would be great.. thanks. 2nd , Anyone have any good ideas of how to deal with Drow? :D
runestar 02-23-06, 09:21 PM	Don't bother. Cooperative spell sucks, considering that you are casting multiple spells to get a single spell with a small bonus to save dc and caster lv check to overcome sr. You are better off spending your feat slots on feats that directly improve your ability to overcome sr, or use spells like assay resistance, or even better, cast spells that eschew sr altogether, like those orb spells from CA or evard's tentacles.
kjenks 02-23-06, 11:04 PM	I've heard this concept before, but I hadn't looked up the feat. I don't think you're reading it right. "While the two of you are adjacent, you and another spellcaster with the Cooperative Spell feat can simultaneously cast the same spell at the same time in the same round. Add +2 to the save DC of the cooperatively cast spells and +1 caster level checks to beat the target's spell resistance (if any), using the higher base DC and level check of either caster." It seems to me as if both spells go off and they both benefit from higher caster level and higher DC. From that point on in the feat description, the authors refer to the spell (singular) for determining caster level and save DC -- but that's right, because each spell will have a CL and DC. In the "two wizards and two sorcerers" example (CA, p.76), it would have been much clearer if they had shown caster levels, DC calculations and damage dice rolled for all four Fireball spells. Here's how I think that example should work: Three wizards (caster level 5, Int 20 with Spell Focus: Evocation, caster level 7, Int 17 and caster level 9, Int 18) and one sorcerer (caster level 7, Cha 17) standing in a circle all have Cooperative Spell. The three wizards ready an action and the sorcerer casts his 1 round casting time metamagic Fireball. The save DCs for all Fireballs are based on the 5th level wizard because he has the highest save DC (10+3+5+1 = DC 19), +4 for their Cooperative Spell for DC 23 total. The caster levels for all Fireballs are based on the level 9 wizard, +3 for their Cooperative Spell for CL 12 total. (But a Fireball maxes out at 10d6.) The four Fireball spells (CL 12, DC 23 each) can be cast in different areas or overlapping areas. The reason I used only one sorcerer in my example is to avoid the problem with trying to ready a 1 round casting time spell, since one can only ready a standard action.
Vaelan 02-23-06, 11:30 PM	If the feat consumed one of the spells to improve one of the others, it would explicitly state that.
tarkin 02-24-06, 08:48 AM	The feat does not "consume two spells" to get one. Instead it is two people cooperatively casting a single spell. Hence the word Cooperative casting. This is clear in the feat, as long as you are not actively trying to twist the feat into something it is not. The Sage has confirmed that it works this way. Two people cast one spell. Yes, it does suck by itself. It is SUPPOSED to suck. The feat is intended as a pre-req for some of the most POWERFULL PRESTIGE classes around. The prestige classes let anyone, Sorceror or Wizard cast any spell on their list. Effectively it teaches you every single spell on your book, even if you are a Sorceror. The feat sucks by itself, but the prestige class it lets you take is clearly worth wasting learnign a bad feat.
kjenks 02-24-06, 09:38 AM	The Sage has confirmed that it works this way. Two people cast one spell. Apparently, that Sage Advice entry never made it into the FAQ. Do you recall which issue that was in?
Vaelan 02-24-06, 10:23 AM	The Sage has confirmed that it works this way. Two people cast one spell. I would appreciate it if you would do the following, Tarkin: 1. Give a specific source for your statements. 2. Tell me why I should give a damn what the Sage says. Thanks.
Neocon 02-24-06, 11:25 AM	... some of the most POWERFULL PRESTIGE classes around. The prestige classes let anyone, Sorceror or Wizard cast any spell on their list. Effectively it teaches you every single spell on your book, even if you are a Sorceror. Which prestige class would that be?
tarkin 02-24-06, 11:52 AM	1) I do no remember which of the Many Dragon magazine articles the Sage's Advice was in. I don't have them all, so can't check them all. 2) The reason you should give a damn about the Sage is that the Sage has almost always been one of the people that actually WROTE the game. For a long time it was Skip Williams. If you check the cover of your PHB, you will see his name there. I think, but am not sure that it was Skip who gave the answer I referred to. 3) The Prestige Class in question is Mage of the Arcane Order/Guild Mage Complete Arcane, Page 49. (Back in 3.0 they also had a similar Waterdeep only guild mage that had the feet).
Neocon 02-24-06, 12:08 PM	Ahhhh yes, the spellpool. That is a fantastic one.
Saric 02-24-06, 02:35 PM	Actually, the feat is pretty good, sure you "waste" another spell, but if one of the casters is a min/max dc kinda guy and the other is min/max caster level kinda gal, it pretty much makes most spells work all the time.. and a +2 dc is pretty good to boot..
tarkin 02-24-06, 03:02 PM	It takes a lot min-maxing on the DC and caster level to make it better than casting two spells. I have never seen that much min-maxing done. I just re-read the feat. If you pay attention to the grammer, it becomes quite clear that only one spell is cast. From the very end of it, Special section: First of all note that they take a lot of care telling you how to get the caster level and the DC. If this was a "both spells go off" thing, then this would be unneccesary. They could avoid the several paragraphs and simplify things considerable. Not conclusive, but definitely strongly indicative. Second of all, see the blue bolded portion? If it were two spells coming into existence, the word would be "ARE", not is. The base DC of the spell's save is equal to the highest save DC among the cooperative casters (as determined by relevant ability scores, other feats, special abilities, or items) +4 (+2 for the first cooperative caster and +1 for each of the other two). As well, whoever has the highest caster level determines the base caster level check, which gains a +3 bonus (+1 for each cooperative caster).
Gnarl 02-24-06, 03:11 PM	Actually, the feat is pretty good, sure you "waste" another spell, but if one of the casters is a min/max dc kinda guy and the other is min/max caster level kinda gal, it pretty much makes most spells work all the time.. and a +2 dc is pretty good to boot.. Oh please, it sucks. Both could cast it for a better effect.
RTNNS 02-25-06, 11:28 AM	"While the two of you are adjacent, you and another spellcaster with the Cooperative Spell feat can simultaneously cast the same spell at the same time in the same round. Add +2 to the save DC of the cooperatively cast spells and +1 caster level checks to beat the target's spell resistance (if any), using the higher base DC and level check of either caster." The four Fireball spells (CL 12, DC 23 each) can be cast in different areas or overlapping areas. So thats +1 Per Caster Level 2 wizards = 2 Spells? or 2 wizards = 1 Spells with higher DC and +? to Beat SR. This is where we need it in the SR.
kjenks 02-25-06, 03:18 PM	So thats +1 Per Caster Level 2 wizards = 2 Spells? or 2 wizards = 1 Spells with higher DC and +? to Beat SR. This is where we need it in the SR. Two wizards, two spells, both spells get the increased DC and CL. Maybe.
runestar 02-25-06, 09:57 PM	The way I read it, its the second option. 2 mages cast 2 fireballs, but the net result is a single improved(barely) fireball. :(