Copying Metamagic Scrolls [Archive] - Wizards Community

Copying Metamagic Scrolls [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Seeker95
01-30-04, 08:56 PM Originally posted by mercurial67
Pay [someone] to scribe a scroll of the spell with the silent or stilled metamagic already applied. When you copy it to your spellbook, it would still be silent or stilled & would be at the higher level. In another thread, this response came up. And it raises a few questions.

1. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be used by a caster without the feat?

2. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be copied to a spell book?

3. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be copied to a spell book by a wizard without the feat?

4. If a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat is copied to a spellbook, is it copied as the metamac version?

5. If a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat is copied to a spellbook, is it copied as the metamac version in the higher metamagic slot?
DemonMonkeyBoy
01-31-04, 12:47 AM :b: Here is how I would do it, but I have not found rules to completely support me.

1. No, where the spell my seem similar there is still a differents that they can't figure out. I would count it as similar to, not on there spell list. For scrolls only, because its spell completion. Items with just spell trigger I would probably allow.

I have alway considered Meta-feat as a secondary add on. A way to improve a spell when needed, but not always there.

If you want to add a spell with a meta-feat to your book,thats fine, just call it a improved version. Like stilled mage armor spell lvl 2.

Althought if they did not have the proper feats than I would require them to do spell research, the 1000gp per spell lvl research, to get it right. They would also need some kind of instuction on how the feat works. A person or a scroll with spell and feat. The spell would also have to be researched at the higher spell lvl.

The abuse comes in when the PC never takes the feats and just learns the spell this way. With the only real drawback of filling there book faster. Now that would make the feats basicaly useless and no one would take them.

The other abuse is sorcerer learning spell with meta-feats applied. They would than be able to cast as a standard action instead of a full action. With sorcerer now being able to drop lower lvl spells, think about taking empowerd magic missile as a 3rd lvl spell and than drop the lower one for something else.

I would probably only allow this on a limited basis. Something like only with one of there feats. I would have to see it play out to get a feel if it is really unbalanced or not.

In basic terms with out the feats I would make it very difficult to add it to a spell book.
tarkin
01-31-04, 03:59 AM Official WoTC approved answers in bold.

1. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be used by a caster without the feat? Yes.

2. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be copied to a spell book?Not directly, but the person can research a new spell that exactly duplicates such a spell, learn it, then copy it into a spell book. Then he could never cast that new spell without the feat.

3. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be copied to a spell book by a wizard without the feat?
If he makes the learning roll yes.

4. If a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat is copied to a spellbook, is it copied as the metamac version?
Only if the Wizard researched a special version with the feat always in it.

4. If a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat is copied to a spellbook, is it copied as the metamac version in the higher metamagic slot? The wizard did the research, the new spell it comes out as the higher metamagic slot. If he did not do the research, then he gets the spell without the feat and uses the regular slot.
cwslyclgh
01-31-04, 04:06 AM I think it should be noted that in case 4. if the character researches a spell with a metamagic feat applied (say a maximized burning hands) it realy is the higher level (in this case 4th) and determines the save DC and whether it can go through a minor globe of invulnerability, etc. as such. (and is thus slightly better then a metamagiced spell in general).
channel_dunlap
01-31-04, 05:07 AM I think it should be noted that in case 4. if the character researches a spell with a metamagic feat applied (say a maximized burning hands) it realy is the higher level (in this case 4th) and determines the save DC and whether it can go through a minor globe of invulnerability, etc. as such. (and is thus slightly better then a metamagiced spell in general).

Wait... this works ?!?! I'm about to set off to create a maximized [insert ray] immediatly!
cwslyclgh
01-31-04, 05:15 AM personaly as the DM I would make you either have a copy of the spell with the metamagic feat applied to try to imitate (ie you must possess a scroll as above) or have the maximize spell feat already...

barring that there is no reason why it shouldn't work.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seeker95 01-30-04, 08:56 PM	Originally posted by mercurial67 Pay [someone] to scribe a scroll of the spell with the silent or stilled metamagic already applied. When you copy it to your spellbook, it would still be silent or stilled & would be at the higher level. In another thread, this response came up. And it raises a few questions. 1. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be used by a caster without the feat? 2. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be copied to a spell book? 3. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be copied to a spell book by a wizard without the feat? 4. If a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat is copied to a spellbook, is it copied as the metamac version? 5. If a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat is copied to a spellbook, is it copied as the metamac version in the higher metamagic slot?
DemonMonkeyBoy 01-31-04, 12:47 AM	:b: Here is how I would do it, but I have not found rules to completely support me. 1. No, where the spell my seem similar there is still a differents that they can't figure out. I would count it as similar to, not on there spell list. For scrolls only, because its spell completion. Items with just spell trigger I would probably allow. I have alway considered Meta-feat as a secondary add on. A way to improve a spell when needed, but not always there. If you want to add a spell with a meta-feat to your book,thats fine, just call it a improved version. Like stilled mage armor spell lvl 2. Althought if they did not have the proper feats than I would require them to do spell research, the 1000gp per spell lvl research, to get it right. They would also need some kind of instuction on how the feat works. A person or a scroll with spell and feat. The spell would also have to be researched at the higher spell lvl. The abuse comes in when the PC never takes the feats and just learns the spell this way. With the only real drawback of filling there book faster. Now that would make the feats basicaly useless and no one would take them. The other abuse is sorcerer learning spell with meta-feats applied. They would than be able to cast as a standard action instead of a full action. With sorcerer now being able to drop lower lvl spells, think about taking empowerd magic missile as a 3rd lvl spell and than drop the lower one for something else. I would probably only allow this on a limited basis. Something like only with one of there feats. I would have to see it play out to get a feel if it is really unbalanced or not. In basic terms with out the feats I would make it very difficult to add it to a spell book.
tarkin 01-31-04, 03:59 AM	Official WoTC approved answers in bold. 1. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be used by a caster without the feat? Yes. 2. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be copied to a spell book?Not directly, but the person can research a new spell that exactly duplicates such a spell, learn it, then copy it into a spell book. Then he could never cast that new spell without the feat. 3. Can a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat be copied to a spell book by a wizard without the feat? If he makes the learning roll yes. 4. If a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat is copied to a spellbook, is it copied as the metamac version? Only if the Wizard researched a special version with the feat always in it. 4. If a scroll prepared with a metamagic feat is copied to a spellbook, is it copied as the metamac version in the higher metamagic slot? The wizard did the research, the new spell it comes out as the higher metamagic slot. If he did not do the research, then he gets the spell without the feat and uses the regular slot.
cwslyclgh 01-31-04, 04:06 AM	I think it should be noted that in case 4. if the character researches a spell with a metamagic feat applied (say a maximized burning hands) it realy is the higher level (in this case 4th) and determines the save DC and whether it can go through a minor globe of invulnerability, etc. as such. (and is thus slightly better then a metamagiced spell in general).
channel_dunlap 01-31-04, 05:07 AM	I think it should be noted that in case 4. if the character researches a spell with a metamagic feat applied (say a maximized burning hands) it realy is the higher level (in this case 4th) and determines the save DC and whether it can go through a minor globe of invulnerability, etc. as such. (and is thus slightly better then a metamagiced spell in general). Wait... this works ?!?! I'm about to set off to create a maximized [insert ray] immediatly!
cwslyclgh 01-31-04, 05:15 AM	personaly as the DM I would make you either have a copy of the spell with the metamagic feat applied to try to imitate (ie you must possess a scroll as above) or have the maximize spell feat already... barring that there is no reason why it shouldn't work.