Copying spells of higher level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Copying spells of higher level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
abyssling
07-03-05, 05:26 PM Ok this is probably a really stupid question but the PHB doesnt clarify. Can a wizard copy spells into his book of a higher level than he can actually cast? I am assuming he can make the spellcraft check.

For example, Could a level 2 wizard copy Fireball (3rd lvl spell) into his spellbook?
Seeker95
07-03-05, 05:48 PM Yes, he can.
PHB page 179 describes this process. With the exception of the two free spells gained at each level (which must be of a level the wizard can cast), the process is the same for spells below, at, or above the level a wizard can cast. The spellcraft check is spell-level dependant.
SALDAR
07-04-05, 12:10 AM No, you cannot. There are 2 rolls involved, the first to decipher and the second to learn the spell. You could decipher a spell in another wizard's spellbook (DC 20 + spell's level Spellcraft check) to understand what the spell is and does. But the second Spellcraft check (15 + spell's level) is to learn the spell. You cannot learn a spell of a level beyond your ability to cast. If you are unable to learn a spell, because you fail the check or it is of a level beyond your ability to cast, you cannot copy it into your spellbook.
Lord Schpungus
07-04-05, 01:30 AM Pretty sure you're wrong, Saldar. Only the 2 free spells per level have any restrictions on ability to cast them. What you're suggesting is nowhere in the SRD, and thus is wrong. As long as you can make the check, you can copy the spell. Whether you can cast it is a different story, but it's in your book.
SALDAR
07-04-05, 04:50 AM The rolls required on pg. 179 are detailed in the Spellcraft skill description.

DC 20 + spell level to decipher a written spell without using read magic or having the person that created the writing help. This takes a full round action.

DC 15 + spell level to learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll. This takes 8 hours (i.e. the day of studying mentioned on pg. 179).

The first roll merely allows the wizard to identify the spell and gives an idea of its effect. It has nothing to do with learning the spell. The second roll is to learn the spell so that you CAN write it into your spellbook.

If you do not know how to release a spell's magical energy by being able to cast it, how can you write down the formula necessary to prepare it in the first place?

Allowing a wizard to copy a spell into his spellbook without knowing how to cast it is not allowed by the rules. If it were, a 1st level wizard, without knowing how to cast it, could have Wish written in his spellbook. Spell research (for the 2 freebies per level or otherwise) limits you to spells you are capable of casting because you cannot learn spells of a level you cannot cast. Why would a wizard need to be high enough level to cast a spell he researches himself when he could do no research and simply copy any spell of any level he wanted without limits? The ability to cast a spell of the required level and actually knowing the spell to place it in your spellbook are there for a simple reason. Game balance.
Bopple
07-04-05, 05:04 AM Another perspective;
If you rule a wizard can learn but cannot cast a higher level spell, specialist PrC like Red Wizard, doesn't suffer anything from Enhanced Specialization.

It's safe to prevent them from learning higher lvl spells.
Turhan
07-04-05, 01:07 PM This has come up in our games in the past. We didn't know the exact answer, but decided the rules might allow the wizard to copy most any spell. However, none of us thought that it was "reasonable" within the game world, so we house ruled that a wizard could try copying the spell with a spellcraft check and then use the 'copy' to study the spell until he gained a level high enough to cast it. Once he could cast that level spell, we assumed he had studied it long enough that with a simple decipher check he could consider it learned. In this way he could add more than just his normal two spells per level when he leveled up. In game terms we thought it made sense, and it allowed some of the mundane actions of the game to take place off-camera.

We decided to limit the process to a spell only 1 or 2 levels higher than he could cast- 1 level higher for 1st-4th level wizards and 2 levels higher for 5th and up.

We also figured that if the wizard had a higher level tutor or the higher level spell's "author" around, he would get bonuses on his check rolls. As the PHB says, with the read magic spell or the author on hand, Decipher is automatic, but copying and learning are not. Then there's the time and cost of copying the spell to the book once it is learned, but that is usually just book keeping details...

We've lived pretty well with those little rules. Now I've re-read the PHB pg 179 parts and I actually think the rules are a bit more open than Saldar thinks. Not that I like that too much, but the PHB says, A) "A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook."; and, B) "If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook." -- That sounds a little too easy to me, so I think I'll stick to my house rules for the game I DM.

If I'm missing anything here, please correct me. I'm always ready to reconsider my position.
Darken
07-04-05, 03:09 PM According to Magic chapter in PHB/SRD, you do not need to be of a level to cast a spell to learn it. The only checks involved (as pointed out above), do not relate to your caster level or character level or class level in any way. As long as you make the checks successfully, have empty spellbook pages, pay the associated cost of scribing, you can learn and scribe the spell into your own spellbook. This does not mean you can cast it, however, as casting it requires the appropriate level slots.

The only requirements to learn a spell are the Decipher Script/Spellcraft checks. You don't even need to have a necessary Int score for the spell or anything else. You can be a level 1 Wizard with 4 Int and still learn Time Stop, if you can somehow pass the 2 checks.
Nom
07-04-05, 07:25 PM I checked, and PH chapter 10 does not explicitly say whether level applies wrt learning spells (except free spells). This is of course quite different to saying that it allows it (or disallows it) - it does neither. The lack of qualification suggests that it is possible, although the similarity in wording and style of the "learning" and "preparing" rules could lead you to believe it is not. Adding a sentence one way or the other would not break anything else currently written.

That said, there are a few subtle abuses to allowing scribing of over-level spells, and no reasons that I can see for permitting it. So although I think there is a strong case that it is not prohibited, I do not allow it in my games.
abyssling
07-04-05, 08:16 PM As of this last Saturday's game, I have told my players they cannot do it. I just really wish I could find a definitive answer. I think I am going to stick to my guns and encourage them to obtain scrolls for spells they wish to copy and save them until they can use them.

I understand what you all are saying, it just doesnt make sense to me that a level 1 wizard could really understand all of the intricacies of Time Stop, even if he DOES have a badass spellcraft check. He can't really "learn" the spell.
SALDAR
07-04-05, 09:32 PM The DMG states the following on pg.198, under the heading of Learning New Spells.
"Wizards must learn new spells and add them to their spellbooks."

The PHB states the following on pg.178, under the heading of Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks.
"A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured."

By these statements, a wizard must learn a spell before it can be added to his spellbook. Wizards cannot learn spells of a level they are not able to cast so the only spells they can write into their spellbooks are those spells they have learned. The versatility of the wizard allows him to learn his spells from any source available, be it captured or borrowed spellbooks, scrolls, or his own research. No matter the source, though, he can only learn spells he is capable of casting.

The only requirements to learn a spell are the Decipher Script/Spellcraft checks. You don't even need to have a necessary Int score for the spell or anything else.
Wizard class description PHB pg. 56, under Spells.
"To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level"
Seeker95
07-04-05, 10:31 PM No matter the source, though, he can only learn spells he is capable of casting.Said with more confidence than accuracy.

The quotes you have provided do not defend your claim. Rather, they more fully identify the obstacles to success. Provided you make the spellcraft check, and have the appropriate Intelligence, you can copy any spell into your spellbook. To prepare it, you must have an approrpiate spell slot available.

If Saldar's claim were to be accepted, it would not be possible to use a scroll of a spell of a higher level than you can cast. It is possible. So is scribing a spell into your book that is of a level you cannot cast. There's just a risk involved.
Bopple
07-04-05, 11:13 PM I don't think the text specifically states you cannot learn higher lvl spells.
But, comparing activating scrolls to learning higher lvl spells, is irrelevant to this matter.
SALDAR
07-04-05, 11:15 PM Said with more confidence than accuracy.
The DMG states the following on pg.198, under the heading of Learning New Spells.
"Wizards must learn new spells and add them to their spellbooks."
Sounds rather accurate to me.

If Saldar's claim were to be accepted, it would not be possible to use a scroll of a spell of a higher level than you can cast. It is possible. So is scribing a spell into your book that is of a level you cannot cast. There's just a risk involved.
A scroll is a magic item that allows you to cast a spell on your spell list, adding a chance of failure when casting a spell beyond your ability. Wands and staves also allow you to cast spells on your list that you do not know. Then again, they are magic items as well.

This has nothing to do with the learning, preparing, or casting of spells contained within your spellbook.
Father Dale
07-05-05, 10:41 AM Wizards can learn a spell and scribe it into their spellbook even if they cannot cast spells of that level (provided they make the appropriate checks, pay the requisite costs, the spell is on their spell list, and they have the requisite ability score). It might be in their spellbook, but they can make no use of it until they have the spell slots to power it.

Nothing in any book says otherwise.

Is this capable of abuse? Possibly, but generally it will be of less benefit to do this than it might at first seem. Learning spells is a time and cost intensive process for a wizard. Learning spells that a wizard can't even cast is a waste in the short term, and offers little benefit in the long term. The only benefits are that the wizard can cast the spell as soon as he gains the appropriate spell slots (as opposed to having to wait maybe a few days to learn it at that time); he can have it in his spell book as opposed to on a more fragile scroll; or he has access to it now but would not at a later date (another wizard lets him copy it from his spellbook but the other wizard might not be available at the later date.)

The drawbacks are an immediate opportunity cost of time and money that could be spent on learning spells he could actually cast, and the loss of access to the spell if it is learned from a scroll (i.e. he won't be able to cast it from a scroll if he really needs it because he burned the scroll learning the spell before he could cast it.)

I play wizard pretty often, and I have not once learned a spell of a higher level than I can cast. Why? I would rather use that time and money to learn spells I can make use of immediately. Theres no guarantee that I might survive to the level where I might actually be able to cast the higher level spell, and the benefit is only a slight decrease in the time needed to learn the spell when I can cast it.

I see no abuses possible for this in gaining entry into PRCs either, as I think any PRC that has a specific spell requirement also requires being able to actually cast that spell. (Arcane Trickster, Sacred Exorcist, etc..)
Bopple
07-05-05, 10:46 AM I see no abuses possible for this
Yes, there is a big abuse & absurdity for Red Wizard.(though not for gaining entry to it)
Darken
07-05-05, 11:49 AM Regarding the requirement of ability score, yes, I have overlooked that. I always thought it was prepare and cast, but it's clear that it should be for learning as well.

However, that does not, in any way, related to the fact the scribing and learning part require any level factor. Your quote from SRD:The DMG states the following on pg.198, under the heading of Learning New Spells.
"Wizards must learn new spells and add them to their spellbooks."Really says nothing. Both "learning of new spells" and "adding them to their spellbooks" are likely argued here to be able to be accomplished prior to said Wizard is able to cast them. All of your quotes above do not address the question "Can a Wizard learn a spell of a level before he can cast a spell of that level" either way. The only statement you have made to follow up was Wizards cannot learn spells of a level they are not able to cast so the only spells they can write into their spellbooks are those spells they have learned. Which you showed no proof of.
Keenath
07-16-05, 10:16 AM Yes, there is a big abuse & absurdity for Red Wizard.(though not for gaining entry to it)You mean learning conjuration spells at all levels before becoming a Red Wizard and setting conjuration as his second opposed school?

Yeah, that could happen... I think there's the intent that you can't learn spells before you can cast them, but it doesn't actually say so anywhere, does it?
Bopple
07-16-05, 10:23 AM Yeah, exactly.
And, no, I don't think the rule steps forward and actually says so.
MystErikEry
07-16-05, 06:26 PM How would that be broken for someone who gains an extra prohibited school?

From what I can see, a character with a prohibited school can never cast spells from that school, not even from scrolls or wands. Thus, a spellbook full of spells you can't cast anymore has no use to you.

As far as the RAW goes, a Wizard can copy and learn any spell they want to, provided they have the requisite ability score to learn the spell and succeed in deciphering and understanding the spell. Nothing says they have to be able to cast the spell to put it in their spellbook.

Additionally, there is this:

If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast.

So the only requirements to learn an arcane spell are:

1. The wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
2. The wizard must first decipher the magical writing and spend a day studying the spell, and must make a Spellcraft check and succeed.
3. The wizard learn any spells from her prohibited schools.

And, I suppose, 4: The wizard must have space in their spellbook and pay for the costs of transcribing the spell.

There's also the ones automatically learned upon gaining a new level, but these have special restrictions and benefits.
Bopple
07-16-05, 07:11 PM From what I can see, a character with a prohibited school can never cast spells from that school, not even from scrolls or wands. Thus, a spellbook full of spells you can't cast anymore has no use to you.
Not exactly. The description of Red Wizard, says that you cannot learn spells from the new prohibited school anymore, but you can still use spells you knew before.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
abyssling 07-03-05, 05:26 PM	Ok this is probably a really stupid question but the PHB doesnt clarify. Can a wizard copy spells into his book of a higher level than he can actually cast? I am assuming he can make the spellcraft check. For example, Could a level 2 wizard copy Fireball (3rd lvl spell) into his spellbook?
Seeker95 07-03-05, 05:48 PM	Yes, he can. PHB page 179 describes this process. With the exception of the two free spells gained at each level (which must be of a level the wizard can cast), the process is the same for spells below, at, or above the level a wizard can cast. The spellcraft check is spell-level dependant.
SALDAR 07-04-05, 12:10 AM	No, you cannot. There are 2 rolls involved, the first to decipher and the second to learn the spell. You could decipher a spell in another wizard's spellbook (DC 20 + spell's level Spellcraft check) to understand what the spell is and does. But the second Spellcraft check (15 + spell's level) is to learn the spell. You cannot learn a spell of a level beyond your ability to cast. If you are unable to learn a spell, because you fail the check or it is of a level beyond your ability to cast, you cannot copy it into your spellbook.
Lord Schpungus 07-04-05, 01:30 AM	Pretty sure you're wrong, Saldar. Only the 2 free spells per level have any restrictions on ability to cast them. What you're suggesting is nowhere in the SRD, and thus is wrong. As long as you can make the check, you can copy the spell. Whether you can cast it is a different story, but it's in your book.
SALDAR 07-04-05, 04:50 AM	The rolls required on pg. 179 are detailed in the Spellcraft skill description. DC 20 + spell level to decipher a written spell without using read magic or having the person that created the writing help. This takes a full round action. DC 15 + spell level to learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll. This takes 8 hours (i.e. the day of studying mentioned on pg. 179). The first roll merely allows the wizard to identify the spell and gives an idea of its effect. It has nothing to do with learning the spell. The second roll is to learn the spell so that you CAN write it into your spellbook. If you do not know how to release a spell's magical energy by being able to cast it, how can you write down the formula necessary to prepare it in the first place? Allowing a wizard to copy a spell into his spellbook without knowing how to cast it is not allowed by the rules. If it were, a 1st level wizard, without knowing how to cast it, could have Wish written in his spellbook. Spell research (for the 2 freebies per level or otherwise) limits you to spells you are capable of casting because you cannot learn spells of a level you cannot cast. Why would a wizard need to be high enough level to cast a spell he researches himself when he could do no research and simply copy any spell of any level he wanted without limits? The ability to cast a spell of the required level and actually knowing the spell to place it in your spellbook are there for a simple reason. Game balance.
Bopple 07-04-05, 05:04 AM	Another perspective; If you rule a wizard can learn but cannot cast a higher level spell, specialist PrC like Red Wizard, doesn't suffer anything from Enhanced Specialization. It's safe to prevent them from learning higher lvl spells.
Turhan 07-04-05, 01:07 PM	This has come up in our games in the past. We didn't know the exact answer, but decided the rules might allow the wizard to copy most any spell. However, none of us thought that it was "reasonable" within the game world, so we house ruled that a wizard could try copying the spell with a spellcraft check and then use the 'copy' to study the spell until he gained a level high enough to cast it. Once he could cast that level spell, we assumed he had studied it long enough that with a simple decipher check he could consider it learned. In this way he could add more than just his normal two spells per level when he leveled up. In game terms we thought it made sense, and it allowed some of the mundane actions of the game to take place off-camera. We decided to limit the process to a spell only 1 or 2 levels higher than he could cast- 1 level higher for 1st-4th level wizards and 2 levels higher for 5th and up. We also figured that if the wizard had a higher level tutor or the higher level spell's "author" around, he would get bonuses on his check rolls. As the PHB says, with the read magic spell or the author on hand, Decipher is automatic, but copying and learning are not. Then there's the time and cost of copying the spell to the book once it is learned, but that is usually just book keeping details... We've lived pretty well with those little rules. Now I've re-read the PHB pg 179 parts and I actually think the rules are a bit more open than Saldar thinks. Not that I like that too much, but the PHB says, A) "A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook."; and, B) "If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook." -- That sounds a little too easy to me, so I think I'll stick to my house rules for the game I DM. If I'm missing anything here, please correct me. I'm always ready to reconsider my position.
Darken 07-04-05, 03:09 PM	According to Magic chapter in PHB/SRD, you do not need to be of a level to cast a spell to learn it. The only checks involved (as pointed out above), do not relate to your caster level or character level or class level in any way. As long as you make the checks successfully, have empty spellbook pages, pay the associated cost of scribing, you can learn and scribe the spell into your own spellbook. This does not mean you can cast it, however, as casting it requires the appropriate level slots. The only requirements to learn a spell are the Decipher Script/Spellcraft checks. You don't even need to have a necessary Int score for the spell or anything else. You can be a level 1 Wizard with 4 Int and still learn Time Stop, if you can somehow pass the 2 checks.
Nom 07-04-05, 07:25 PM	I checked, and PH chapter 10 does not explicitly say whether level applies wrt learning spells (except free spells). This is of course quite different to saying that it allows it (or disallows it) - it does neither. The lack of qualification suggests that it is possible, although the similarity in wording and style of the "learning" and "preparing" rules could lead you to believe it is not. Adding a sentence one way or the other would not break anything else currently written. That said, there are a few subtle abuses to allowing scribing of over-level spells, and no reasons that I can see for permitting it. So although I think there is a strong case that it is not prohibited, I do not allow it in my games.
abyssling 07-04-05, 08:16 PM	As of this last Saturday's game, I have told my players they cannot do it. I just really wish I could find a definitive answer. I think I am going to stick to my guns and encourage them to obtain scrolls for spells they wish to copy and save them until they can use them. I understand what you all are saying, it just doesnt make sense to me that a level 1 wizard could really understand all of the intricacies of Time Stop, even if he DOES have a badass spellcraft check. He can't really "learn" the spell.
SALDAR 07-04-05, 09:32 PM	The DMG states the following on pg.198, under the heading of Learning New Spells. "Wizards must learn new spells and add them to their spellbooks." The PHB states the following on pg.178, under the heading of Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks. "A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured." By these statements, a wizard must learn a spell before it can be added to his spellbook. Wizards cannot learn spells of a level they are not able to cast so the only spells they can write into their spellbooks are those spells they have learned. The versatility of the wizard allows him to learn his spells from any source available, be it captured or borrowed spellbooks, scrolls, or his own research. No matter the source, though, he can only learn spells he is capable of casting. The only requirements to learn a spell are the Decipher Script/Spellcraft checks. You don't even need to have a necessary Int score for the spell or anything else. Wizard class description PHB pg. 56, under Spells. "To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level"
Seeker95 07-04-05, 10:31 PM	No matter the source, though, he can only learn spells he is capable of casting.Said with more confidence than accuracy. The quotes you have provided do not defend your claim. Rather, they more fully identify the obstacles to success. Provided you make the spellcraft check, and have the appropriate Intelligence, you can copy any spell into your spellbook. To prepare it, you must have an approrpiate spell slot available. If Saldar's claim were to be accepted, it would not be possible to use a scroll of a spell of a higher level than you can cast. It is possible. So is scribing a spell into your book that is of a level you cannot cast. There's just a risk involved.
Bopple 07-04-05, 11:13 PM	I don't think the text specifically states you cannot learn higher lvl spells. But, comparing activating scrolls to learning higher lvl spells, is irrelevant to this matter.
SALDAR 07-04-05, 11:15 PM	Said with more confidence than accuracy. The DMG states the following on pg.198, under the heading of Learning New Spells. "Wizards must learn new spells and add them to their spellbooks." Sounds rather accurate to me. If Saldar's claim were to be accepted, it would not be possible to use a scroll of a spell of a higher level than you can cast. It is possible. So is scribing a spell into your book that is of a level you cannot cast. There's just a risk involved. A scroll is a magic item that allows you to cast a spell on your spell list, adding a chance of failure when casting a spell beyond your ability. Wands and staves also allow you to cast spells on your list that you do not know. Then again, they are magic items as well. This has nothing to do with the learning, preparing, or casting of spells contained within your spellbook.
Father Dale 07-05-05, 10:41 AM	Wizards can learn a spell and scribe it into their spellbook even if they cannot cast spells of that level (provided they make the appropriate checks, pay the requisite costs, the spell is on their spell list, and they have the requisite ability score). It might be in their spellbook, but they can make no use of it until they have the spell slots to power it. Nothing in any book says otherwise. Is this capable of abuse? Possibly, but generally it will be of less benefit to do this than it might at first seem. Learning spells is a time and cost intensive process for a wizard. Learning spells that a wizard can't even cast is a waste in the short term, and offers little benefit in the long term. The only benefits are that the wizard can cast the spell as soon as he gains the appropriate spell slots (as opposed to having to wait maybe a few days to learn it at that time); he can have it in his spell book as opposed to on a more fragile scroll; or he has access to it now but would not at a later date (another wizard lets him copy it from his spellbook but the other wizard might not be available at the later date.) The drawbacks are an immediate opportunity cost of time and money that could be spent on learning spells he could actually cast, and the loss of access to the spell if it is learned from a scroll (i.e. he won't be able to cast it from a scroll if he really needs it because he burned the scroll learning the spell before he could cast it.) I play wizard pretty often, and I have not once learned a spell of a higher level than I can cast. Why? I would rather use that time and money to learn spells I can make use of immediately. Theres no guarantee that I might survive to the level where I might actually be able to cast the higher level spell, and the benefit is only a slight decrease in the time needed to learn the spell when I can cast it. I see no abuses possible for this in gaining entry into PRCs either, as I think any PRC that has a specific spell requirement also requires being able to actually cast that spell. (Arcane Trickster, Sacred Exorcist, etc..)
Bopple 07-05-05, 10:46 AM	I see no abuses possible for this Yes, there is a big abuse & absurdity for Red Wizard.(though not for gaining entry to it)
Darken 07-05-05, 11:49 AM	Regarding the requirement of ability score, yes, I have overlooked that. I always thought it was prepare and cast, but it's clear that it should be for learning as well. However, that does not, in any way, related to the fact the scribing and learning part require any level factor. Your quote from SRD:The DMG states the following on pg.198, under the heading of Learning New Spells. "Wizards must learn new spells and add them to their spellbooks."Really says nothing. Both "learning of new spells" and "adding them to their spellbooks" are likely argued here to be able to be accomplished prior to said Wizard is able to cast them. All of your quotes above do not address the question "Can a Wizard learn a spell of a level before he can cast a spell of that level" either way. The only statement you have made to follow up was Wizards cannot learn spells of a level they are not able to cast so the only spells they can write into their spellbooks are those spells they have learned. Which you showed no proof of.
Keenath 07-16-05, 10:16 AM	Yes, there is a big abuse & absurdity for Red Wizard.(though not for gaining entry to it)You mean learning conjuration spells at all levels before becoming a Red Wizard and setting conjuration as his second opposed school? Yeah, that could happen... I think there's the intent that you can't learn spells before you can cast them, but it doesn't actually say so anywhere, does it?
Bopple 07-16-05, 10:23 AM	Yeah, exactly. And, no, I don't think the rule steps forward and actually says so.
MystErikEry 07-16-05, 06:26 PM	How would that be broken for someone who gains an extra prohibited school? From what I can see, a character with a prohibited school can never cast spells from that school, not even from scrolls or wands. Thus, a spellbook full of spells you can't cast anymore has no use to you. As far as the RAW goes, a Wizard can copy and learn any spell they want to, provided they have the requisite ability score to learn the spell and succeed in deciphering and understanding the spell. Nothing says they have to be able to cast the spell to put it in their spellbook. Additionally, there is this: If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast. So the only requirements to learn an arcane spell are: 1. The wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. 2. The wizard must first decipher the magical writing and spend a day studying the spell, and must make a Spellcraft check and succeed. 3. The wizard learn any spells from her prohibited schools. And, I suppose, 4: The wizard must have space in their spellbook and pay for the costs of transcribing the spell. There's also the ones automatically learned upon gaining a new level, but these have special restrictions and benefits.
Bopple 07-16-05, 07:11 PM	From what I can see, a character with a prohibited school can never cast spells from that school, not even from scrolls or wands. Thus, a spellbook full of spells you can't cast anymore has no use to you. Not exactly. The description of Red Wizard, says that you cannot learn spells from the new prohibited school anymore, but you can still use spells you knew before.