Post/Author/DateTime	Post
James_Nostack 09-03-06, 11:16 PM	If you were a king, how would you protect yourself from a powerful wizard, who could (in theory) scry you for a long time, and then teleport in with some lackeys to kill you? Is there a magical defense? Is there a mundane or monstrous one? I'm trying to think through the implications of the D&D magic system. It seems like a paranoid king would probably end up hiding inside a permanent "Mage's Private Sanctum", or sleeping in a different castle each night, or hiring impostors... sort of like a medieval version of Saddam Hussein... ===Assumptions=== Only the PHB, DMG, and MM3.5 are in play. For atmosphere, let's say it's Europe, circa 1250 A.D. Also, the class/level demographics are about as described in the DMG: that is, characters of 9th level are pretty hard to come by, and those much higher than 12th don't exist in appreciable numbers. The wizard who hates you is level 9-12--about as powerful as you're likely to find. As a king, you've got a ton of money, and lots of low-level warriors, but maybe only a handful of adventurers level 8+ at your service.
Legdiwena 09-03-06, 11:25 PM	area effect dimensional anchor? or anti magic field
PhaedrusXY 09-03-06, 11:28 PM	Hallow could keep the mage from escaping again via the Dimensional Anchor function. Daily Divination spells could warn the king of an impending attack (Will the king be attacked today?), and allow him to prepare somewhat. I'm sure there is more, but that's all I can think of for now.
Legdiwena 09-03-06, 11:29 PM	wouldn't anchor keep someone from porting in too?
DarkRhystar 09-03-06, 11:38 PM	This is a problem you run into in a campaign world where you have powerful magic users running around. What's to stop them from using their power to take over kingdoms? The solution to this problem isn't a purely reactive one though. The mage will fall into one of two categories: Threatening: The King will seek the mage's death. Use impersonators and traps to lure the mage into attack, then strike with forces. Also use squads of men to seek out and kill the mage. Don't just wait for him to come to you, go after him. Overpowering: Normal manpower won't kill the mage so special warriors (or mages) will need to be brought in. Sometimes mages brought in to beat another mage will do so and then takeover themselves. Or the King will simply make a deal/surrender to the mage. Another solution may be to emply one of these: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=378718
PhaedrusXY 09-03-06, 11:43 PM	wouldn't anchor keep someone from porting in too?I'm not sure, but I don't think so. The spell Dimensional Anchor normally targets a creature, so I think the area affect version would affect creatures that enter the area. However, they wouldn't be affected before they entered the area.
Legdiwena 09-03-06, 11:46 PM	so nothing short of amf would prevent teleporting in?
Toptomcat 09-03-06, 11:51 PM	High-powered golem bodyguard. It doesn't sleep, it doesn't get tired, so it can be on watch 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
PhaedrusXY 09-04-06, 12:00 AM	so nothing short of amf would prevent teleporting in?Oh, no. Forbiddance would, but it is higher level than allowed under the OP's guidelines.
Thomar_of_Uointer 09-04-06, 12:11 AM	A high-level mage would have a high enough Intelligence score to know better than to assassinate someone. Why kill someone and take all his stuff when you can show up once a month and extort a few thousand gold off of him for the rest of his life? When it comes down to it, only insane people with the ability to level cities actually do so. It's much more profitable to simply let everyone know you're capable of it. And then, there's the meta-defense. If you pay protection money to a powerful wizard, he sure isn't going to appreciate anyone else moving in on his territory. Basically, it's a good thing that you have to give half your yearly taxes to a wizard threatening to level your kingdom if you don't because the next wizard who would agree to protect you may want all of it.
Legdiwena 09-04-06, 12:13 AM	those in power should have more powerful mages to prevent this from happening
Arctigear 09-04-06, 01:09 AM	Creative use of Nondetection and obscure object could be used to foil teleporters. For example, below the room where the king sleeps an identical room could be made, minus a major piece of furniture. At 8 hour intervals the royal mage would cast nondetection on this piece of furniture, and eventually the teleporting mage would teleport to what he thought was the king's chamber, but really was the one below it (where some evil trap or other device presumably lay).
Perun 09-04-06, 01:13 AM	I don't know if this is actually supported by the current rules, or if it's a remnant of earlier editions still used in our games, but I remember lead being used to prevent both scrying and teleportation. Gorgon's blood has much the same effect.
Legdiwena 09-04-06, 01:24 AM	permanent nondetection on the crown?
Fruscht 09-04-06, 07:18 AM	I agree with others who recommend you protect yourself from scrying using Nondetection or something like that. Are you allowed to research new spells? You could research spell similar to Spell Compendium's Zone of Respite. It's a 5th level wizard/cleric spell that blocks all interplanatary intrusion (like Teleport). You should also research applying Permanency on it (since it's duration is min/level). Then cast it all over your castle, and the wizard won't be able to teleport inside it.
1CentSage 09-04-06, 07:58 AM	I don't know if this is actually supported by the current rules, or if it's a remnant of earlier editions still used in our games, but I remember lead being used to prevent both scrying and teleportation. Gorgon's blood has much the same effect. A lead sheeting indeed blocks scrying if not noted otherwise (PHB p. 173), but has no effect on teleportation as far as I know. It is however not specified how tight the sheeting has to be (propably holes smaller than 1'' are allowed as usual). A few more mundane things: boost the Will save of the king through items and buff spells provided by cohorts/employers... and have some intelligent people around. Since after a successfull you have to wait for 24h before you can try again and everyone can notice the magical scrying sensor with an intelligence check DC 20, this might give you enough time to prepare for an attack, take counter measures, etc. . Combine this with a nondetection item used by the king, made by his highest level mage and the effort for the would be assassin increases further. And there should of course be always enough body guards around. An item that grants permanent detect magic should also be possible, which would allow for fast detection of the scrying sensor. A problem with protecting the king against scrying is of course that you his followers will have also difficulties finding him if he should go missing...
James_Nostack 09-04-06, 10:24 AM	Thanks, these are all interesting ideas. IMO, I think I may have asked a trick question: it's probably impossible to defend, day in and day out, against magic. There's always going to be something you didn't foresee, and if your complicated precautions go awry ("Oops, I forgot to cast the spell during this one 8 hour period...") there's trouble. So I'd probably approach it as a political, rather than magical, problem. A high level aristocrat, such as a king, has excellent social skills and a ton of money. The simplest approach would be to bribe a wizard into protecting you from these guys. Depending on the social sophistication of the setting, these "bodyguard wizards" might end up corresponding with each other, and forming rudimentary guilds to establish codes of conduct and police the region. (Probably wouldn't work in my suggestion of 1250 AD, but it might by 1500.) Another approach--and I like this one a lot!--is to simply frustrate the wizard's other enemies. Using the historical world as a basis, witches & magicians were anathema to the Church, and often had a love/hate relationship with common people. They didn't have many friends. In a fantasy setting, wizards might also have trouble with big-bad monsters. An aristocrat could offer shelter, protection, or resources against these threats, since he often had trouble with these groups too.
Joseph_Silver 09-04-06, 12:03 PM	My suggestion is to send a level 1 rogue to infiltrate the wizard's stronghold to coup de grace the wizard while he's asleep. Wizards have to sleep, you know. If he uses a dagger to do it, he deals 2d4 + 1d6 damage on a coup de grace. That's an average of 8 damage, so the wizard has to make a DC 18 fortitude save to live. Not many wizards can make that save. Or you could use a level 5 rogue, in which case he deals 2d4 + 3d6 damage, or an average of 15 damage. A DC 25 fortitude save is not something many wizards can succeed on. Think of the wizard as a B-2 bomber (very powerful) and the rogue as a saboteur. It's very difficult to stop a B-2, but if it's sabotaged before takeoff, you eliminate the threat that it poses to you.
Thomar_of_Uointer 09-04-06, 12:18 PM	Thanks, these are all interesting ideas. IMO, I think I may have asked a trick question: it's probably impossible to defend, day in and day out, against magic. There's always going to be something you didn't foresee, and if your complicated precautions go awry ("Oops, I forgot to cast the spell during this one 8 hour period...") there's trouble. So I'd probably approach it as a political, rather than magical, problem. A high level aristocrat, such as a king, has excellent social skills and a ton of money. The simplest approach would be to bribe a wizard into protecting you from these guys. Depending on the social sophistication of the setting, these "bodyguard wizards" might end up corresponding with each other, and forming rudimentary guilds to establish codes of conduct and police the region. (Probably wouldn't work in my suggestion of 1250 AD, but it might by 1500.) Another approach--and I like this one a lot!--is to simply frustrate the wizard's other enemies. Using the historical world as a basis, witches & magicians were anathema to the Church, and often had a love/hate relationship with common people. They didn't have many friends. In a fantasy setting, wizards might also have trouble with big-bad monsters. An aristocrat could offer shelter, protection, or resources against these threats, since he often had trouble with these groups too. Now that's a unique idea for a Wizard's Guild! Imagine, they'd probably create monsters just so they could get paid to exterminate them! That explains all the magical crossbreeds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html) right there.
Legdiwena 09-04-06, 12:55 PM	wizard would be foolish not to sleep in private sanctum or have detection spells around his fortress
Dire Celestial Bonobo 09-04-06, 01:33 PM	If you were a king, how would you protect yourself from a powerful wizard, who could (in theory) scry you for a long time, and then teleport in with some lackeys to kill you? There are several spells in the 1-5th range that would be useful in hindering or dissuading potential scryers: - Mordekainen's Private Sanctum (5th): prevent all scrying all day over a 150' x 150' x 2-story castle, can be Permanencied. - False Vision (5th): scrying gives wrong info. - Detect Scrying (4th): figure out you're being scry'd on, and some sense of who's doing it and where they are. - Scrying (4th): get info on scryer detected with Detect Scrying. - Nightmare (5th): attack scryer detected with Detect Scrying. - Teleport (5th): send goons to attack scryer detected with Detect Scrying. There are also some mundane things he can do to prevent attacks in certain places, such as his bedchambers: - Lead lining prevents scrying. - Drastically rearranging the furniture arguably prevents Teleport from working ("You can't simply teleport to the warlord's tent if you don't know...what's in it.") - Filling the room with wires and spikes to leave no person-sized empty spaces either prevents Teleport or makes it hazardous (DM's decision). Moreover, the enemy Wizard will have to bring in his flunkies himself; if the incursion can be made sufficiently dangerous to him personally, he may decide it's too risky: - Hallow (4th) + Dimensional Anchor (4th) has been mentioned as a way to prevent attackers from fleeing. The Wizard is at great risk of being trapped and killed. - Scrolls of Dimensional Anchor extend the attack against a Teleporting Wizard, and can be used by lower-level hirelings. - Dispel Magic or Targetted Dispel Magic would help debuff the attackers and render them vulnerable. - Magic items which grant See Invisibility would be invaluable for these guards, as would scrolls of Glitterdust. - Actions Readied can be used to disrupt spellcasting until the attacker is contained. If he's got lots of money and characters of levels 9-13 are rare but exist, the king can have a variety of high-level magic items crafted over time. Some useful ones are: - Permanent Anti-Magic Field (6th) to prevent incursions into small areas, or to lock down magical attackers. - One-use Anti-Magic Field items to use against attackers. - Forbiddance (6th) can be cast once and will prevent Teleportation forever. - Item that continually radiates Forbiddance, Hallow+Dimensional Anchor, or the like protects today's sovereign on the go. - Permanent Protection from Evil effect to block Dominate/Charm spells and summoned attackers. - Permanent Shield Other effect or Shield Golem (MM) to effectively double the king's hit points. Finally, new-spell research is hard to adjudicate, but new spells which are stripped-down versions of existing spells are pretty reasonable. Examples include: - Taking only the scry-blocking from Mordekainen's Private Sanctum should make it lower-level and/or require a lower level to use Permanency on it. - Taking only the teleport-blocking from Forbiddance should make it lower-level and cheaper, and hence make it available more readily. In general, Scry-and-Die becomes a less attractive tactic if it carries a substantial risk. Especially with a target who's usually in the same place (so it can be fortified) and who has enough flunkies to continually have Readied actions protecting him, there's enough stuff in the core rules to make that risk appreciable.
Legdiwena 09-04-06, 02:28 PM	by RAW, wouldn't a permanent AMF be impossible?
PhaedrusXY 09-04-06, 02:28 PM	I was thinking that lead prevented Scrying, but couldn't find that in the SRD. So there you go. If the enemy wizard has never seen an area, he can't teleport to it. All you need are private, lead-lined chambers.
Izzak 09-04-06, 11:07 PM	lead works well to block scrying but doesnt 1foot of stone im not sure but i think ive seen it somewhere