Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hanniball 01-19-06, 08:10 PM	As written in the Phb (my DM doesn't use updated versions of anything unless update in the Completes series) would the caster of a Polymorph spell have the option of choosing an advanced form of a creature that still fits within the other parameters of the spell? For example, could a 15th lvl wizard choose to turn into a 15 HD Remorajz, thus becoming Gargantuan (in addition to any other benefits for HD increase)? It doesn't specifically prohibit said choice, but that doesn't mean it's allowed.
tarkin 01-19-06, 11:38 PM	First of all, SRD is core. Second of all, when you say "Not Errata", what you seem to be saying is "I don't care what WoTC says the rules are, does anyone see a problem with my interpretating the words in the original PHB to mean X". That means you are playing a Power Game. So the answer to that is: You are allowed to make up your own mind about how to play the game, and that specifically allows you to twist the words as you see fit. As a Power Game, I could see you breaking the rule in the PHB about requiring normal creatures without templates or other fancy changes. But even if you allow it to happen, the spell clearly limits you in size. I can't even see a Power Game to let you exceed the size limit and become Gargantuan. That would grant so much reach, and reach is a key path to power for many builds. Only a total Anything Goes Game would let it work the way you propose. For the rest of the people out there reading this: 1) WoTC clearly did not mean to let you take advanced forms of the monsters. Even if you ignore the wording in the book (which does deny it), this is clear from everything they have repeatedly said about the spell - normal form only, no templates, etc. etc. etc. 2) It is a clear level of power above and beyond the game as WoTC wrote it. No Strict or Loose DM would let you take an advanced form.
jaelis 01-20-06, 12:50 AM	I agree with Tarkin's basic assessment, but to clarify where the restrictions come from: - The size restriction follows from Alter Self, so you can't change size by more than one category. - The "no advanced creatures" limit comes from the line in Alter Self about "the new form's significant physical qualities ... must fall within the norms for the new form's kind." Is that missing anything? Of course, the FAQ and ROTG articles are a bit less strict (in different ways).
Hanniball 01-20-06, 01:14 PM	First of all, SRD is core. My current gaming group considers the original 3.5 printing of the PhB, DMG, and MM to be core. If someone doesn't have a computer (like my DM) that's all they can use and there isn't anything too inherently wrong with the Phb as written, imho. Second of all, when you say "Not Errata", what you seem to be saying is "I don't care what WoTC says the rules are, does anyone see a problem with my interpretating the words in the original PHB to mean X". That means you are playing a Power Game. Actually, "No errata" means RAW in the Phb... you know, that substantial hardcoverd piece of matter that forms the basis for this game...J/K But even if you allow it to happen, the spell clearly limits you in size. I can't even see a Power Game to let you exceed the size limit and become Gargantuan. That would grant so much reach, and reach is a key path to power for many builds. Only a total Anything Goes Game would let it work the way you propose. Now here's a good point. I guess I assumed the size limitation from Alter Self was removed as Polymorph has additional information regarding size that clearly limits minimum height, but does not place a limitation on maximum. 1) WoTC clearly did not mean to let you take advanced forms of the monsters. Even if you ignore the wording in the book (which does deny it), this is clear from everything they have repeatedly said about the spell - normal form only, no templates, etc. etc. etc. Which sentence makes this information so clear to you? I read and reread it several times and came here looking for the opinions of others because I read no such clarifying passage. Reference? - The "no advanced creatures" limit comes from the line in Alter Self about "the new form's significant physical qualities ... must fall within the norms for the new form's kind." I see, however the norms for a 7HD Remorajz are quite different than the norms for a 15Hd Remorajz; size, reach, etc. And the first written line gives us the option of "...changes the subject into a new form of creature..." I don't think this is as clear as it's being made out to be. Either way...just my 0.02 cp
Shadowfax7 01-20-06, 01:14 PM	- The size restriction follows from Alter Self, so you can't change size by more than one category. I am not necessarily disagreeing with what has been said. Just a related question on this subject . . . if the size restriction follows from Alter Self, why did they bother to put the specific restriction against changing into a Fine creature for Polyorph ?? Since the restriction against changing into a Fine creature doesn't exist for Alter Self, does that mean that if you are normally Diminutive you can use Alter Self to change form into a Fine creature ??
Seeker95 01-20-06, 01:47 PM	Actually, "No errata" means RAW in the Phb... you know, that substantial hardcoverd piece of matter that forms the basis for this game...j/kAlthough you wrote "just kidding" on this comment, it does raise a legitimate question that may arise. Errata is official *changes* to the published rules. There has been at least a second printing of the 3.5 PHB (maybe a third?), and it contains a lot of the errata that had been identified prior to its printing. If you are a "no errata" group, and one player bought a PHB in 2003 and the other bought one last week, and you find a difference between the two, which do you use? The newer one contains the errata.
DDogwood 01-20-06, 03:59 PM	I am not necessarily disagreeing with what has been said. Just a related question on this subject . . . if the size restriction follows from Alter Self, why did they bother to put the specific restriction against changing into a Fine creature for Polyorph ?? Since the restriction against changing into a Fine creature doesn't exist for Alter Self, does that mean that if you are normally Diminutive you can use Alter Self to change form into a Fine creature ?? I agree with your point. In our games, this has typically been returned to a "Rule 0" question. Polymorph is a better-balanced spell with a 1-size category limit, but the mention of size limits in the spell description can be interpreted to override this. Also, the "Rules of the Game" articles on Polymorph specifically state that the spell allows the subject to take any form from Fine to Colossal size. I do believe that the general consensus of most players is that the whole Polymorph line of spells, along with Wild Shape and all related abilities, is poorly written, poorly balanced, and in need of a serious overhaul. I fell into this camp when our party Rogue, in the form of a hydra, made 20 consecutive Sneak Attacks against a flat-footed bad guy for a potential 20d10+100d6+100 damage (average 560 points, if all attacks hit) Some might argue that the 1-level size limit might have helped this, but if the Rogue had been polymorphed into, say, a Dire Lion, he still would have done 2d8+52d6+43 damage (average 244 points), with a better attack bonus, which is an awful lot for a 4th-level spell.
mvincent 01-20-06, 04:42 PM	As written in the Phb (my DM doesn't use updated versions of anything unless update in the Completes series) That shouldn't matter. The errata mostly just fixes typos and such, and doesn't even touch this area. The 3.5 FAQ (and even the RotG) mostly just tries to clarify what's in the core rules, basically providing the exact sort of thing you're asking us for. would the caster of a Polymorph spell have the option of choosing an advanced form of a creature that still fits within the other parameters of the spell?The 3.5 FAQ answers this for you: Can you become advanced versions of creatures with polymorph* (Player’s Handbook, page 263), or just the most basic as presented in the Monster Manual? The rules don’t explicitly prevent this, but for speed of play (and reasons of sanity) it’s entirely reasonable for a DM to disallow any forms other than those detailed in the Monster Manual (or other allowed volumes of monsters). If the DM chooses to allow advanced creatures, the player must supply full statistics for the advanced version before play begins. Remember that the Hit Die limit for the various polymorph spells still applies (a 7th-level wizard can’t use polymorph to assume the form of a 10-HD advanced sahuagin). *The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer to all spells of the polymorph spell chain (including alter self, polymorph, baleful polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange), as well as to other effects that refer to spells in the chain (such as the druid’s wild shape class feature).
Hanniball 01-21-06, 01:18 PM	Actually, mvincent, that simply reiterated that the printed rules don't say that you can't choose such forms. Thanks for the reference though. Seeker: We all purchased the 3.5 core books during the first printing. Should this problem arise, the DM would contemplate both versions of the text in question and then decide which version works better for his current campaign. That shouldn't matter. The errata mostly just fixes typos and such, and doesn't even touch this area. The 3.5 FAQ (and even the RotG) mostly just tries to clarify what's in the core rules, basically providing the exact sort of thing you're asking us for. Yes, but should a DM not have access to any such errata or FAQ he becomes inclined to use the rules as printed in the books used to play the game. As I said, I find nothing inherently unbalanced about the rules as written in the core books and am therefore not interested in debating my DMs decision to utilize them. I would, however, be interested in determining whether or not the rules as written spell out the issue at hand. The FAQ seems to agree that the rules are unclear. I guess the only question I have remaining is whether or not the size limitation from Alter Self applies to the Polymorph spell due to Polymorphs specifications on size directly contradicting Alter selfs.