Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dc_quicksilver 12-20-07, 03:58 PM	Hi. I am still new to the Item creation rules within D&D, however I would like to inquire if my math is correct for the creation of an item. First off. I am a Dread Necromancer in my campaign and I took the feat Tomb Tainted Soul. At some time I finally was able to take forge ring. I would like to create a specific ring and I would like to know if my math process is correct for the creation of this ring. Ring of the Necromatic King (I came up with the name) Harm (Spell Level 6 & Caster Level 15 Continuous) ~Casts Harm on the Wearer Continuously~ 6 * 15 * 2000 * 2 = 360,000 Lifeward (Spell Level 4th & Caster level 7 Continuous) ~Continuous Lifeward on Wearer~ 4 * 7 * 2000 * 1.5 = 84,000 Speak with Dead (Spell Level 3rd & Caster Level 5th Continuous) ~Wearer Can Speak with Dead at Will~ 3 * 5 * 2000 * 2 = 42,000 Total Cost if creating seperately = 486,000 The math so far is correct in my opinion. Now is where I get confused. I am trying to put all of these abilities into one ring. There are two different methods and I am unsure which to use. The first method is to use the 100%, 75%, 50% rule. The most expensive is at full price, the second most expensive is at 75% cost, and all others are at 50% cost. This would make it 360,000 + 63,000 + 21,000 = 444,000 This is lower than the cost if creating seperately which makes me think this is incorrect. The other method is the 1.5x. Meaning that all abilites other than the first are at 1.5x the base cost. This would make it 360,000 + 126,000 + 63,000 = 549,000 Which would be the correct formula to use and why? After reading the rule book in more depth I believe that the correct method would be the 1.5x method because it is using the Ring Slot on my person. Am I right in this belief? If this is the case, then the ring that I wish to have would cost 549,000g to create. Making it to where only Evil, Dread Necromancers can use this ring would decrease that cost by 30%. Making 549,000 into 384,300g. I also took the Expert Artisan feat which decreases cost for creating just rings by 25%. This would take the price down to 288,225g. So the total cost would be 288,225g using the Rules specified in the text. I understand that this would not be the case due to the overwhelming power that this ring would grant my character. Immunity to Positive Energy, Fast Heal 150, and Speak with Dead at will. However, I would like to just verify that the numbers are correct and that I am correct in believe that this would be the method used to created said ring. Thanks
Seeker95 12-20-07, 04:21 PM	I would not allow harm (or any other instantaneous-duration spell) to be made continuous. Your 2x and 1.5x multipliers on each element are prematurely placed, (I think, depending on whether you are applying the next step incorrectly, or skipping the next step entirely.) You have omitted the duration multipliers for each entry. -Life ward has a duration of 1 min/level. Duration multiplier = 2x -Speak with dead also has a duration of 1 min/level. Duration multiplier = 2x -Again, I would not allow harm, but if you are going to, it's duration would cause a multiplier of at least 4x (the multiplier for spells with a duration measured in rounds). The 1.5x is the correct method. A ring uses a body slot. The increase in price comes from the advantage of placing multiple powers on body slot items. The slots are limited, so the more the item does, the better. Note, however, the 1.5x is still better than the 2x default associated with slotless items. Once you have your base prices, apply the 1.5x multiplier to each subsequent power. Add it all together. Rings have no affinity requirements, so there is no non-affinity multiplier.
Kouk 12-20-07, 04:40 PM	Hi. I am still new to the Item creation rules within D&D, however I would like to inquire if my math is correct for the creation of an item. First off. I am a Dread Necromancer in my campaign and I took the feat Tomb Tainted Soul. At some time I finally was able to take forge ring. I would like to create a specific ring and I would like to know if my math process is correct for the creation of this ring. Ring of the Necromatic King (I came up with the name) Harm (Spell Level 6 & Caster Level 15 Continuous) ~Casts Harm on the Wearer Continuously~ 6 * 15 * 2000 * 2 = 360,000 Lifeward (Spell Level 4th & Caster level 7 Continuous) ~Continuous Lifeward on Wearer~ 4 * 7 * 2000 * 1.5 = 84,000 Speak with Dead (Spell Level 3rd & Caster Level 5th Continuous) ~Wearer Can Speak with Dead at Will~ 3 * 5 * 2000 * 2 = 42,000 Total Cost if creating seperately = 486,000 The math so far is correct in my opinion. Now is where I get confused. I am trying to put all of these abilities into one ring. There are two different methods and I am unsure which to use. The first method is to use the 100%, 75%, 50% rule. The most expensive is at full price, the second most expensive is at 75% cost, and all others are at 50% cost. This would make it 360,000 + 63,000 + 21,000 = 444,000 This is lower than the cost if creating seperately which makes me think this is incorrect. The other method is the 1.5x. Meaning that all abilites other than the first are at 1.5x the base cost. This would make it 360,000 + 126,000 + 63,000 = 549,000 Which would be the correct formula to use and why? After reading the rule book in more depth I believe that the correct method would be the 1.5x method because it is using the Ring Slot on my person. Am I right in this belief? If this is the case, then the ring that I wish to have would cost 549,000g to create. Making it to where only Evil, Dread Necromancers can use this ring would decrease that cost by 30%. Making 549,000 into 384,300g. I also took the Expert Artisan feat which decreases cost for creating just rings by 25%. This would take the price down to 288,225g. So the total cost would be 288,225g using the Rules specified in the text. I understand that this would not be the case due to the overwhelming power that this ring would grant my character. Immunity to Positive Energy, Fast Heal 150, and Speak with Dead at will. However, I would like to just verify that the numbers are correct and that I am correct in believe that this would be the method used to created said ring. Thanks Well firstly if the Ring will have a value over 200,000gp I believe it counts as Epic, which will require the Epic feat Forge Epic Ring http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#forgeEpicRing Anyway, about the math: Harm: For Harm to be continuous you would have SL 6 x CL 15 x 2000gp for continuous equals 180,000gp. However, if you note the superscript 3 on the chart, it directs you to footnote 3 which states that there are multipliers for continuous spells. I am not even sure whether it is possible to make a spell with an Instantaneous duration continuous (I suspect not) but if we treat it as if it was a spell with "a duration measured in rounds" then we multiply the whole thing by 4 to get 720,000gp for the Harm ability, making it already Epic by itself. Life Ward: SL 4 x CL 7 x 2000 = 56,000gp. Following the footnote again we have to multiple this by 2 because this is a spell with a duration measured in 1min/level, so a total of 112,000gp by itself. Speak With Dead: SL 3 x CL 5 x 2000 = 30,000gp, x 2 because it is also measured in 1min/level and total of 60,000gp by itself. Combining them: I would say these are not "Multiple Different Abilities" because they are all continuous spells, and they are not "Multiple Similar Abilities that do not take a body slot" either. We would use the "Adding New Abilities" section for adding abilities to an item which occupy a body slot, on page 288 of the DMG. Thus, each additional ability costs 1.5 times what it would cost on its own. For the purpose of saving money, we would probably start with the continuous Harm leaving it at 720,000gp. Then we would add the other two abilities with their own costs multiplied by 1.5, so add 168,000gp for the continuous Life Ward, and 90,000gp for the continuous Speak with Dead. This gives a total of 978,000gp. You didn't ask for it, but here is my advice: You don't need continuous Speak With Dead, you would most likely be fine with a couple of times per day, which reduces the cost drastically. 3/day would cost just 16,200gp (SL 3 x CL 5 x 1800 command word = 27000. Divide 27000 by (5/3 charges per day) equals 16,200gp. I would also just get a different item that does this, or a separate Ring rather than trying to add this to the main ring -- you probably won't be using this ability in a combat situation. A few Scrolls would probably be enough, though I can't say for sure without knowing your campaign. Continuous Harm is impossible. It is too expensive, and I am unsure whether Instantaneous spells can even be made "continuous" but only "Use Activated". Even being use activated instead of continuous is too much though. I would recommend a lower level spell, or a number of uses per day. Life Ward is about the only spell that can easily be continuous.
dc_quicksilver 12-20-07, 04:41 PM	Thanks
groveborn 12-20-07, 09:17 PM	I'll agree with the assessment that continuous instantaneous effects are not possible, or indeed compatible with the item creation guidelines. Have said spells cast as Use Activated, when the creature is (I presume it's undead) is at 50% hit points, or some other number. Or, simply have it cast at will (a standard action). Limit the uses per day to 3, so as to reduce its cost significantly, and make it less game breaking. Speak with Dead just isn't that useful most of the time. Carry scrolls. If you must have it, make it at will or by command word. Doing all this will make your item need no body slot. Continuous items usually need one. This will not incur the 2x for being unslotted. See wands, potions, and scrolls if you think otherwise. Therefore, the price of this item would be: Harm (3/day) (6*15*1800(command word) or 2000 (for at will or use activated) or 162000 gp (for command word) Life Ward (continuous) 120,000 as stipulated by Kouk Speak with dead (command word, 2/day) 3*5*1800 or 27000 gp Now, since they're multiple disimilair abilities that do not take up a body slot, they would simply have their costs added together. The total cost for this item would be 309K Gp. It would require an epic crafter and 31 days to make. Don't bother. The scrolls would cost significantly less, and make playing more fun, as you can be hurt. Part of the fun of any game is the chance to lose. If you can't lose, why play at all?
Seeker95 12-20-07, 10:22 PM	Now, since they're multiple disimilair abilities that do not take up a body slotUnless I have misplaced the context, I believe the OP indicated he was shooting for a ring, which does take up a body slot. But with all other aspects (the important ones) of your post, I am in complete agreement.
groveborn 12-21-07, 01:15 AM	Unless I have misplaced the context, I believe the OP indicated he was shooting for a ring, which does take up a body slot. But with all other aspects (the important ones) of your post, I am in complete agreement. A ring that casts spells is somehow different from a rock that casts spells? Or how about a wand? The item only requires a slot if it is continuously providing an effect. If it's just casting spells, treat it like a wand with unlimited charges. Refer to other items that do this as well, such as a bag of holding (providing no effect for the carrier). Or how about a cube of force. One can wear 10 rings of these types and still be able to use all of them. One would also be able to wear regular slotted rings with those 10 rings as well. One could simply carry 40 of those rings, and use them all, in addition to the two that are slotted on one's hands. Just because it looks like a ring, doesn't make it a ring. This would be a wondrous item, not a ring, even if it's worn on the fingers normally.
Seeker95 12-21-07, 08:31 AM	A ring that casts spells is somehow different from a rock that casts spells? Or how about a wand?A ring occupies a body slot. A rock does not. Slotless items cost twice as much as slotted items.
groveborn 12-21-07, 11:00 AM	Right. Now, everybody, quickly, double the cost of all wands, potions, rods, staffs, and scrolls. Items that simply cast a spell never take a body slot. That ring of invisibility can be removed WITHOUT removing the effects. The ring of slowfall can also be removed without removing its effects. I'd say given that the ring of feathfalling is use activated, it must be worn to GET the effects though, and at that time is slotted. Treat items that merely cast spells as slotless, without an increase in price for being slotless.
Merestil Haye 12-21-07, 12:04 PM	Right. Now, everybody, quickly, double the cost of all wands, potions, rods, staffs, and scrolls. Items that simply cast a spell never take a body slot.This is not correct. An item takes a slot if it is defined as an item that takes a slot. There is no reference in the body slot rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemsOnTheBody) to items that cast spells on the user being slotless. Rings take slots, because the general rules for rings say they do. Wands and scrolls do not, because the rules make it clear that they do not. The cost and use restrictions of these items already takes into account that they are effectively slotless. That you can remove a Ring of Invisibility after activating it and still benefit from the spell the item cast on you does not make the ring any less a slotted item. A slotless ring is one that you can wear and benefit from without counting as one of the two rings you are allowed to wear, and costs double the list price. The Ring of Invisibility would cost 40,000gp if it were slotless.
Estand 12-21-07, 03:27 PM	I agree that "instantaneous" spells cannot be made continuous. There is no multiplier for continuous like the others... But instantaenous spells can be made "use activated" without a multiplier to price. so each round he could Activate the ring to use Harm. to simplify the math make all spells Use Activated. That would easily justify saying the item has Multiple Similar Abilities. Harm: 6 * 15 * 2000 = 180,000 Lifeward: 4 * 7 * 2000 * 0.75 = 42,000 Speak with Dead: 3 * 5 * 2000 * 0.5 = 15,000 subtotal= 264,000 Because it's slotted *1.5= 396,000 and due to restrictions *0.7= 277,200 days to create = 278 Gold to make = 138,600 Xp to make= 11,088 Now if we take the same ring but make the two lesser spells continuous but keep Harm as Use Activated it might be argued that it is no longer similar abilities as a whole... Harm: 6 * 15 * 2000 = 180,000 Lifeward: 4 * 7 * 2000 * 2 = 112,000 Speak with Dead: 3 * 5 * 2000 * 2 * 0.75= 45,000 (similar to lifeward) subtotal= 337,000 Because it's slotted *1.5= 505,500 and due to restrictions *0.7= 353,850 days to create = 354 Gold to make = 176,925 Xp to make= 14,154 The first option fits all the rules and avoids anything murky... The second option is a plausible argument to keep things cheap.
Seeker95 12-21-07, 05:05 PM	so each round he could Activate the ring to use Harm.As a standard action. Takes a lot of the intended benefit out of it. But yes, that is possible.
Merestil Haye 12-21-07, 05:14 PM	I agree that "instantaneous" spells cannot be made continuous. There is no multiplier for continuous like the others... But instantaenous spells can be made "use activated" without a multiplier to price. so each round he could Activate the ring to use Harm.The price for an item that can cure 150hp damage every six seconds without an action is not something you're going to be able to pay. The correct way to price an item is to compare it to something that does the same thing. I'm guessing you want it to equip an undead creature, so what the Harm is really doing is acting as a continual Heal spell. Thus you need to price the item according to guidelines for items that give a continual flow of healing without requiring the user to take an action. The Ring of Regeneration restores 15 hit points per hour and costs 90,000gp. That's one hit point every 240 seconds. Your ring can restore 150*10*4=6,000hp every 240 seconds. It is six thousand times more potent than a 90,000gp item, thus it should cost at least the product of those two numbers, and then an additional multiple of 10 just for the effect alone. (Casting Harm without taking an action is an epic-level ability. At least.) That's a total of 5,400,000,000gp. If I was feeling mean, I'd point out that strictly speaking, simple scaling of an effect raises the price by the square of the increased effect. But I won't. There is no reasonable or realistic price for the item as specified, simply because of the Harm power. to simplify the math make all spells Use Activated. That would easily justify saying the item has Multiple Similar Abilities.No, it won't. If the item does not have a limited pool of activations to draw on, but can use each spell an unlimited number of times, use the Multiple Different Abilities pricing rules. Harm needs to be usable a small, fixed number of times per day. A price of 162,000gp gets an item that can cast Harm @ CL15 five times per day. Each use is a standard action. Lifeward: 4 * 7 * 2000 = 56,000. The Multiple Similar Abilities is disallowed because each power is independent. Speak with Dead: 3 * 5 * 1,800 = 27,000. This gives five uses of Speak With Dead per day. Again, the Multiple Similar Abilities reduction is disallowed. Personally (owing to the restrictions on the Speak With Dead spell) I'd make it 1/day at CL14. Cost is then 15,120gp for 7 questions of 1 corpse. (Remember that you can't cast the spell on the same corpse more than once a week.) Since the Harm power is the costliest and the item is to be slotted (as a ring, I assume) the base price is 162,000 + 56,000 * 1.5 + 15,120 * 1.5 = 268,680gp. None of those powers individually exceed the epic thresholds, so the epic cost multiplier is not invoked. Thus that's the price used to calculate costs and time to create. Limited-use discounts apply only to the market price and do not affect the cost to create. In any case, this item has no limitations on who can use it.
groveborn 12-21-07, 05:23 PM	Ring of Regen is 1 hp/level/hour. Not 15. Just wanted to throw that in. Or did you mean at the level the OP wanted his Harm?
Merestil Haye 12-21-07, 05:38 PM	Ring of Regen is 1 hp/level/hour. Not 15. Just wanted to throw that in. Or did you mean at the level the OP wanted his Harm?You're correct about the Ring; but yes, I said 15 per hour because he wanted Harm to be cast at CL15. It seemed a reasonable comparison. I probably should have said that. My apologies.
Estand 12-21-07, 07:24 PM	I based my answer on the examples given in the DMG... a use acticated ring to cast a spell is similar to a ring that casts a use acivated spell. The example for this is the Staff of Popwer... It's assumed that a "Use Activated" item has unlimited charges per day. That is why lower down the table you have an option to reduce the price by having charges per day or just charges a straight 50 charges. There is nothing allowing "instantaneous" effects to become continuous in tiems. Whether it's harm or something else (insert fireball as an example). Hell... the text as written doesn't even allow single action or 1 round only spells to be made continuous. NOTE: I haven't read up on epic... nor do I intend to. Games get too silly at that point.
groveborn 12-21-07, 10:53 PM	Limited-use discounts apply only to the market price and do not affect the cost to create. In any case, this item has no limitations on who can use it. The discounts were based on charges per day, not limits on who/what can use it. It's fairly standard, and does invoke a change in market price, which invokes a change in crafting costs. While no one spell involved would invoke epic pricing, the combination does invoke epic crafting. This just means that the cost is in excess of 200k gp. This doesn't affect the price any, just the means to create it.