Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hjones 08-02-07, 10:25 AM	I don't know about you guys but I hate the idea of having to spend experience points to cast some spells and to create magical items. I think it is way too much to ask of a player to sac their experience points to create magical items and spells. There has never been any player in my games who has disagreed with me on that point, no one wants to spend experience points. I get the idea that, in creating magic items and casting powerful spells, a wizard is literally putting a part of is life force, energy, spirit, or whatever... in to the spell in order to power it. From an RP point of view or as a story element that makes perfect sense, but in practice all it really means is a disappointed player who has created a temporary item at the cost of being left behind the other players because of his experience point difference. I agree that there has to be something that characters pay in place of these things and simply making them pay more gold seems to easy. But I have not been able to come up with anything else that makes sense and works well mechanically. Does anyone else agree with the idea that paying experience is too big a cost? What other suggestion or ideas have you come up with to counter this and still have spellcasting and magical item creation be balanced?
W00T 08-02-07, 10:32 AM	D&D basically has three forms of currency: Wealth, Time, and Experience. A clever (or even not-so-clever) mage can get as much wealth as they need; time is never an issue (you can just go off for a year and do your own thing, or--hell--slip off into a dimension where one century is five minutes over here). Both these resources are completely renewable. I understand what you're saying, but if players want to create their own magical loot, they need to pay with something that isn't easy to come by with very little work. There are some classes out there that get extra 'fake-experience' that you can use to build magical items; if your players are really hard-pressed for getting around the experience ruling, show them those prestige classes. Or, if you're really desperate, give all magic-users an extra 'for-magic-item-creation-only' experience pool for every level they get.
Nicholas the Paladin 08-02-07, 10:37 AM	Just a thought: Could you force a mage to construct a magical item for you, using the 'dominate person' spell? (this spell lasts 1 day per level, I think)
runestar 08-02-07, 10:38 AM	In 3.5, you will come to realize that paying xp can be as much of a boon as it may be a bane. The way xp gain is structured, the lower lv you are, the more xp you get. Thus, in the long run, you might actually come out ahead. Imagine that as a wizard, you could either spend say, 100,000gp on a magic item, or expend 50,000gp and 4000xp crafting one. You will eventually catch up with the rest of the party (or in the very least, you will not be as far behind as you might be led to believe), and you are ahead in terms of gear. For example, a lv20 PC typically has around 760,000gp worth of gear. Compared to the fighter who paid top dollar for all his stuff, your wizard would have more items since he spent some xp (as thus spending less gold) crafting those items. You win some (more eq), you lose some (lower lv). Item creation is simply an alternate means of accessing magic items, as opposed to buying the same item off the open market, or the DM slotting it into the dragon's treasure hoard. If you don't like spending xp to craft items, then don't. Simply tie down with the DM what items you want, and pay full market price for it. However, item creation is very powerful as it pretty much allows you to access any magic item you want (as compared to random treasure drops in hoards, where you may not always end up with the exact item you want). If you have a nice DM who always gives you what you want, than obviously, its value dips somewhat. In fact, it might not necessarily be a bad idea to continuously stay 1 lv below the average party lv at higher lvs. You get more xp this way, which in turn lets you craft more items, which translates to more power for the PCs. Trust me - once you overcome the psychological barrier of not wanting to lose any xp, you will find just how rewarding item creation can be (assuming your DM gives you ample downtime).:)
MarrowMage 08-02-07, 11:45 AM	if your characters aren't run of the mill goody goodies like many are...the book of vile darkness has a few alternative methods to it
tarkin 08-02-07, 12:21 PM	Also, there is something called Power Components. Effectively by killing certain creatures and cutting up their bodies, you an redue the amount of XP needed to cast certain spells and create magic items. Crystal Keep has a list of them on their equiptment pdf.
hjones 08-02-07, 12:21 PM	In 3.5, you will come to realize that paying xp can be as much of a boon as it may be a bane. The way xp gain is structured, the lower lv you are, the more xp you get. Thus, in the long run, you might actually come out ahead... ...In fact, it might not necessarily be a bad idea to continuously stay 1 lv below the average party lv at higher lvs. You get more xp this way, which in turn lets you craft more items, which translates to more power for the PCs. That actually makes a lot of sense when you think about it that way. I would still like to here about other peoples ideas and suggestions for an alternative to experience spending, but what you said makes sense and I will keep that in mind.
CaoSlayer 08-02-07, 12:39 PM	there is not a thread in character optimization saying how much extra experience you can win by always standing a level behind the rest of the party from low to high levels? It had some amazing results of how many extra stuff could you build by doing that.
runestar 08-02-07, 01:01 PM	That actually makes a lot of sense when you think about it that way. I would still like to here about other peoples ideas and suggestions for an alternative to experience spending, but what you said makes sense and I will keep that in mind. Well, the only real currencies in dnd are xp and gold. If you don't want to spend xp, then you will have to rely purely on money. Whatever alternatives you might come up with, it should invariably boil down to either of the 2. Either that or play an artificer.
Frogmantis 08-02-07, 03:42 PM	I got one word for you: Warlock. imbue item: ...he can make magical items without hte spell, and he pays no xp or gp cost. ...or, as usual, am I missing something?
mvincent 08-02-07, 03:47 PM	Does anyone else agree with the idea that paying experience is too big a cost? What other suggestion or ideas have you come up with to counter this and still have spellcasting and magical item creation be balanced?From an optimization standpoint, spending XP is generally better than spending gold because XP is renewed (for free) because you get more XP if you are ever lower level than the party. Conversely, if you spend gold you will forever have less than you would have (in comparison to the party). But if that is what's desired: the rules say (when buying spellcasting services) "If the spell has an XP cost, add 5 gp per XP lost", so this valuation could be extended in other ways (as a house rule) to casting your own spells and such.
ReadError 08-02-07, 04:05 PM	I got one word for you: Warlock. imbue item: ...he can make magical items without hte spell, and he pays no xp or gp cost. ...or, as usual, am I missing something? Warlocks still need to pay xp and gold, and they still need the crafting feats.
Frogmantis 08-02-07, 04:10 PM	Warlocks still need to pay xp and gold, and they still need the crafting feats. well, according to the class feature description... it says he needs the feat, but not the spell. he makes a check instead of casting the spell. if the check works, "He does not expend the XP or gp costs for making the item; his progress is simply arrested." the warlock is a rule breaker, with his limitless invocations AND his magic items.
runestar 08-02-07, 09:33 PM	well, according to the class feature description... it says he needs the feat, but not the spell. he makes a check instead of casting the spell. if the check works, "He does not expend the XP or gp costs for making the item; his progress is simply arrested." the warlock is a rule breaker, with his limitless invocations AND his magic items. No... Imbue casting simply lets you make an UMD check to simulate the casting of the spells needed to create said item. You still pay the gold and xp needed to craft said item. I don't have CA, but I am pretty sure that quote has been taken entirely out of context.
Frogmantis 08-03-07, 01:17 AM	hehe, naw, it wasn't. i'd quote the whole paragraph, but i don't feel like writing it all out. now, i'm not all macho or anything, so if you read it and see the semantical flaw in my logic (ie, find that they in fact can't do that), please tell me. Cause, if not, i'm about to freakin make one. Warlocks and their unlimited power. wowza.
Frogmantis 08-03-07, 01:35 AM	...wait, wait... damnit, i figured it out. ...I knew it was too good to be true.....
TheGogmagog 08-03-07, 10:34 AM	Just a thought: Could you force a mage to construct a magical item for you, using the 'dominate person' spell? (this spell lasts 1 day per level, I think)Yea, I think that would work by RAW. I'll tell you a secret though {If I'm your DM, cursed items come from experience point cheats like this and wishes from gated creatures.} In 3.5, you will come to realize that paying xp can be as much of a boon as it may be a bane. The way xp gain is structured, the lower lv you are, the more xp you get. Thus, in the long run, you might actually come out ahead. ... Trust me - once you overcome the psychological barrier of not wanting to lose any xp, you will find just how rewarding item creation can be (assuming your DM gives you ample downtime). How your DM awards experience points could change the effectiveness for this tactic. I think the RAW DMG method uses the group average, not individual level. I'm not sure if the tactic still works since I award individual. As mentioned though It's worth considering.
runestar 08-03-07, 10:40 AM	I think the RAW DMG method uses the group average, not individual level. I'm not sure if the tactic still works since I award individual. As mentioned though It's worth considering. I am quite sure that in the DMG3.5 (which I only flipped through and do not own, so don't yell at me if I am mistaken), it does state that lower lv PCs get more xp. Thus, if everyone in the party is lv17, and you are lv16 due to lv loss from resurrection, you will actually get more xp per encounter than the other PCs. For example, if you defeated a cr17 challenge, assuming 4 members, each lv17 member gets 1275xp, while you (lv16) get 1800xp or something like that. Either way, you will definitely be compensated to some extent.:)
Sothar_Borealis 08-03-07, 10:29 PM	Well I have the book and you are taking that ability out of context. " If the check suceeds, the warlock can create the item as if he had the required spell. if it fails, he cannot complete the item. he does not expend XP or gp costs for making the item; his progress is simply arrested. he cannot retry this use magic device check for that spell until he gains a new level." Now i would have just quoted the SRD but I'm not sure how to do it. But either way that is what that ability says with regaurds to xp and gold.
Frogmantis 08-03-07, 11:58 PM	Well I have the book and you are taking that ability out of context. I know, I found it. Thanks though. I was totally stoked to make a warlock, after I miss read that!