Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vintrastorm 01-14-04, 08:29 PM	my traveling group consisting of a CN Tiefling rogue, CN Fire Genasi Sorcerer, CN (probably) Halforc with an int of 7, probably NG Bariaur, LN Githzerai monk and me, a LG Ftr/Rgr Dwarf have been granted a wish from an angel once we deliver a specific item. Now, the Fire Genasi said that I could wish for whatever I would like, as long as I didn't change his reputation as a bard, and the tiefling and bariaur doesn't have a hand in on the wish, so to speak. I, the LG Dwarf, and the LN gith monk decided that we wanted to wish that our travelling comanion would be more lawful and act towards following laws and furthering good. Can a wish be used this way? In game, I can see that noone exept for the monk and I would be glad for that alignment change, and out of game I can see that some of the players would/could feel trhat they are being pushed in a direction that they don't want to go. But it really feels IC, at least for me, to do it. And I believe the monk feels almost the same way. Now, I'm not really sure what to do. We're not really asking them to BE lawful (good), but to be MORE Lawful (good). (The lawul is primary, the good is secondary)
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-14-04, 09:00 PM	I don't think Wish is powerful enough to change someone's alignment, although that's debatable: it can undo the effects of the Helm of Opposite Alignment, a cursed item. I would strongly discourage/not allow it IMC because I don't require characters to play their alignments. They just play; their alignments change to fit their style of play. I want my players to do what they want with their characters. One of the most destructive things you can do to a campaign/group is to force the players to do things they don't want to do. Lawful Good paladin killing innocents? He loses his powers and must atone, and can't take levels of paladin any more. NE Rogue donating his money to charity? He's more NG. I guess I don't give players control over their alignments. Those are my call. All this to say that no, using Wish to change your fellow players' alignments is not within the spell description.
halzmar of geoff 01-14-04, 11:19 PM	Yes a wish could compell the characters to act more lawful good. As it could duplicate the effects of any spell of 8th level or lower it can act as a Geas/Quest in terms of forcing the character to act more lawful and good. That is upon making a non-lawful or good act they will take 3d6 points of damage and make a fortitude save or be sickened. They do not get a save to avoid being affected by the spell. However have you fully considered the implications of this act? Magically compelling your traveling companions to act against their nature is a hostile act. I'm not even sure if it's a lawful good act. Have you watched a movie called "A Clockwork Orange" you may wish to check it out before you do this.
Vintrastorm 01-15-04, 07:15 AM	Yes, I see your points, and I thought something like that. But still, if someone asks you what you wish for, and I say; "I wish my travelling companions would strive to do more good than bad" I mean, my character wishes that they would, but to force it upon them is another thing... they have to do it of their own free will..., but at the same time...Qwll, it's a dilemma, and I'm guessing the DM will say no on this one...
DM Zoc 01-15-04, 07:25 AM	First of all, it is not good to strong-arm someone into acting a certain way. Second of all, there are easier ways to get someone to change alignment (unfortunately, most all of them involve putting yourself in grave danger). I think it highly logical, in a twisted way, that wishing a Chaotic Neutral person to be Lawful Good would turn you Chaotic Neutral in the process (law of conservation of fundamental balance of the universe). I would also suggest that you merely ask for the cursed helm mentioned above to appear on the character you wish to change (presumably there will be nobody there to watch your wish, and hopefully nobody will see the connection between the two events if you word it correctly, have it wait until everyone is asleep, and so on).
Vintrastorm 01-15-04, 07:30 AM	Yeah.. But wishing for the helmet would be as ad as wishing outright that the CN character was LN.... But wishing that they would act MMORE towards a LG behaviour, but not BE LG, feels pretty ok. I mean, I'm not wishing for a direct alignment change, but rather that they would feel the urge to do good and lawul deeds.... Maybe giving them a one step AL shift...
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-15-04, 07:52 AM	And what if the player doesn't want to be more lawful and moves back to CN? Alignments shouldn't be straightjackets; if the player's character is CN, obviously that's the way the player wants to play the character. I see no problem with you wishing that they were more lawful. If you expect them to start behaving more lawfully, though, you're probably not going to get your wish, because playing an alignment depends on the player. If your DM docks experience points for "bad roleplaying," then he's doing the wrong thing; the alignment needs to change, not the amount of experience. I refer you to p. 103, 3.5 PHB: Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. ... Choosing an alignment for your character means stating your intent to play that character a certain way. Sounds like your problem is with the players, not the characters. You might want to deal with this one out of character.
Vintrastorm 01-15-04, 08:01 AM	Nono, the problem is not with the players, everybody in our group are clear with that. It's with the characters. Sure, their isn't really such a big problem, but me and my monk friend have been noticing that the other characters aren't exactly aiming towards following laws and do good deeds, like I/we do... Now, I don't expect them to behave more lawfully, but I hope they will, or at least come to respect it a little. The scenario is this, that our group are going to get a wish from an angel we did something for, and the group is around 4 level, so we don't really know that it's a level 9 spell that takes a toll on the soul for the caster (i.e. costs XP).... Ah, I'll stop trying to explain, my knowledge in the english language isn't sufficient enough to write down a good answer, and I don't even know how to way what I'm thinking in my own language... I'll talk with the other player, and then we'll talk to the DM and see...
Seeker95 01-15-04, 09:31 AM	If a wish can change an alignment, it can change an alignment. Wish can change the alingment of someone under the effects of a helm of opposite alignment. The fire genasi, in an effort to fulfill the wish, will find a way to change the alignment of the desired target. If it takes the genasi teleporting a helm of opposite alignment into his hands and placing it (perhaps via grapple, or some other combat resolution sequence) on the head of the target... Wish works not on intent, but on wording boundaries. The core rules already establish that changing an alignment is within the boundaries of a wish. Working within those same boundaries, the wish can be granted.