Post/Author/DateTime	Post
keyunp 04-22-07, 01:33 PM	I'm designing a heavily traped dungeon and I want some doors not to be able to be opened with knock. I might just end up saying it dosen't work, but I'd like to find some rules / spells to stop it.
Novacat 04-22-07, 04:44 PM	I'm designing a heavily traped dungeon and I want some doors not to be able to be opened with knock. I might just end up saying it dosen't work, but I'd like to find some rules / spells to stop it. Ah yes, Knock... the most painful thing for a new DM running a more experienced party. In most cases, you rest in the satisfaction that they're blowing at least 2nd level spell slots in order to bypass a locked door, when a proper rogue could do it for free. However, sometimes you want that one particular door to be a regular bastion of defense for the enemy, or perhaps have the party turn on their INT caps and find a creative way through. In any case, let's review the enemy here. The knock spell opens stuck, barred, locked, held, or arcane locked doors. It opens secret doors, as well as locked or trick-opening boxes or chests. It also loosens welds, shackles, or chains (provided they serve to hold closures shut). If used to open a arcane locked door, the spell does not remove the arcane lock but simply suspends its functioning for 10 minutes. In all other cases, the door does not relock itself or become stuck again on its own. Knock does not raise barred gates or similar impediments (such as a portcullis), nor does it affect ropes, vines, and the like. The effect is limited by the area. Each spell can undo as many as two means of preventing egress. The spell description itself shows you a few tricks that can be used to thwart it. Having the door held shut with chains is a good way to counter the spell. Another way you may consider is that, rather than having the door "locked", you simply have to turn a crank to slide it up. Thing is, the crank is on the INSIDE, and without turning the crank, the mechanisms are far too tight to allow normal human (or near-human) feats of strength to lift the door. This is actually what I most highly recommend: requiring a process other than turning a knob to open the door. Knock does not help the party in this case. For kicks, give the door a false knob just to throw them off. A portcullis can also be used to bar the door, preventing it from swinging open until it raised.
Bloodtide_the_Red 04-22-07, 04:49 PM	1.The simple way.....have door with at least three locks or ' means of preventing egress'. That way one knock spell won't open them. 2.A door with an anti-magic feild can't be knocked. 3.Add more doors. If you have to get through three doors to get into a room....that is three knocks. Just space them apart. 4.Add more secret doors. Yes knock can open them...but they have to know that they are there first. 5.Add fake doors that open to nothing, or a trap. Good way to waste a knock.
Derren S. 04-22-07, 04:53 PM	You have to accept that doors are only a temporary obstacle. With enough time every door can be overcome. SO relying on doors for security is useless against powerfull intruders or just really determinded intruders.
runestar 04-22-07, 10:41 PM	You know those rubber wedge-shaped door stops you use to stop those doors from closing? Stick a few under the dungeon doors. Now, the mage cannot open them even after he has disabled the locks with knock...:D
Necromas 04-22-07, 10:56 PM	Add a special ability to the locks granting it a certain SR vs. just the knock spell, the rogue has to beat a DC to pick the lock, so the caster should have to beat an SR check. Always remember, you're the DM, you can do whatever you want.
Thiez 04-23-07, 06:58 AM	Add a special ability to the locks granting it a certain SR vs. just the knock spell, the rogue has to beat a DC to pick the lock, so the caster should have to beat an SR check. Always remember, you're the DM, you can do whatever you want. True, but I think the game is more fun if the DM tries to play by the same rules as the players.
spike81101 04-23-07, 10:16 AM	Here are two options. Wall of force behind the door + permanency (the door opens inwards) The door isn't really a door. You open it to find nothing but a stone wall behind it. You must have a key to open the magical door which creates a gate effect to the dimensional pocket that the room is really in. It really depends on who created the door, a rogue would probably create something more like door number 1 and a wizard would have created something like door number 2.
Inigo Carmine 04-23-07, 10:33 AM	You have to accept that doors are only a temporary obstacle. With enough time every door can be overcome. SO relying on doors for security is useless against powerfull intruders or just really determinded intruders. QFT The same is true in the real world. Even the door to your house; if someone really wants to get in, they'll get in. Doors are there to keep out the casual/non-determined person, and to slow down the determined. This is why fort knox probably has more than just a reinforced door between the outside world and a big stockpile of gold. If you want a door to be truely secured, it usually involves someone else being there to defend it as well. Either on the outside to attempt to prevent access altogether, or on the other side, who will be alerted to possible intrusion when he hears either spellcasting going on, or the physical destruction of the door or someone playing with the lock for longer than the 2 seconds it takes to use a key. If the party is using knock to get past doors, that's a good thing. They're widdling down their own resources that anyone who is supposed to have access to will not have to waste.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-23-07, 02:27 PM	You have to accept that doors are only a temporary obstacle. With enough time every door can be overcome. SO relying on doors for security is useless against powerfull intruders or just really determinded intruders. Well, under the core rules, yes. Of course, I like to just create new defensive dungeon spells (which I find are seriously lacking anyway) Spells that do things like Make doors indestructible and unknockable, Make walls similarly magically shielded, Prevent teleportation, etc. D&D is missing these sort of protection spells to actually make high level dungeons secure against intruders. I'd like to think Elminster's tower wouldn't collapse if someone just walked over and cast a disintegrate at it. I advise everyone comes up with their own personal dungeon warding spells for high level adventures.
Evil DM Mk3 04-23-07, 02:48 PM	To paraphrase Russtle T Davies (YES this is related the the main issue!) "You want the monsters to stop them, you want the traps to stop them, you want your BBEG to stop them but you don't want a door to stop them, it just isnt exising DnD." (The original quote was about the Doctors Sonic Screwdriver) HOWEVER you could try some of the following ideas: A magic lock that opens then locked and lcoks when open. Knock opens the lock, thus locking it. :) Combine with mundane locks for extra fun. A door that opens to reaveal an ilusionary coridor that in fact covers a lake of lava. A secret mechanism casues the real coridor to swing into place. A very nasty "fill the room with poison gas" trap that trigers if anyoen uses magic on the door.
Bedevere 04-23-07, 03:00 PM	It strikes me as odd that wizards will devise such incredible magical traps to protect their homes, construct golems, summon powerful monsters, but forget the simple level 2 spell that can get past the front door in the first place. Seriously, while it might not be as much fun for the party (until the new standard ways around it are found, of course), can anyone think WHY wizards have never researched a way to ward against knock spells?
tarkin 04-23-07, 03:02 PM	The spell is limited to 10 square ft/level. A door that is 20x10 is 200 square feet. It takes a 20th level mage to open it. Make it 21 ft x 10 ft and it takes an Epic caster. Good enough for me. 21x10 is about the right size door for any create of Large size or greater. I.E. non-epic Knock will not open an Ogre sized Door. P.S. A normal human door is about 3 ft x 7 ft, or 21 square feet. A first or 2nd level caster can not use Knock to open a normal human sized door.
Thiez 04-23-07, 03:17 PM	The spell is limited to 10 square ft/level. A door that is 20x10 is 200 square feet. It takes a 20th level mage to open it. Make it 21 ft x 10 ft and it takes an Epic caster. Good enough for me. 21x10 is about the right size door for any create of Large size or greater. I.E. non-epic Knock will not open an Ogre sized Door. P.S. A normal human door is about 3 ft x 7 ft, or 21 square feet. A first or 2nd level caster can not use Knock to open a normal human sized door. But since Knock is a second level spell, you're never going to see any first or second level caster use it.
tarkin 04-23-07, 03:19 PM	:embarrass Oh man. I should have realized that. Thanks for pointing it out. I guess that is why they made it a 2nd level spell.
perdera 04-23-07, 03:39 PM	Good suggestions here, I agree that the spell suggests alot. I'd just caution to use a little reason on your doors. By that, I mean if it's a door that a Wizard is trying to secure, who is well versed in the Knock spell, it's not unreasonable for him to say, install 20 padlocks around the secure side of the door and bind an imp there to relock any that unlock; but some random architect designing a burial chamber may not be so inclined. Maybe the diabolical Wizard has a hall with 5 successive doors in it, requiring a significant use of Knock spells (or a Rogue of course). It's not unreasonable at all for even a normal door to have security on par with our home security today: one regular lock, one deadbolt, and a security chain. Three means of preventing egress, which would require two Knocks (of course a security chain on some doors is silly, but multiple locks is still perfectly reasonable). I think if you plan the design on the doors reasonably then things will work out fine. Easy doors may require one Knock, not a significant amount of resources really. More secured doors may require three or four Knocks, a higher resource expenditure which should result in a fair trade off. Naturally, once you've made your Wizard paranoid enough that he starts memorizing multiple Knocks, you do away with all the locked doors. :devil:
Flan 04-23-07, 03:57 PM	The spell is limited to 10 square ft/level. A door that is 20x10 is 200 square feet. It takes a 20th level mage to open it. Make it 21 ft x 10 ft and it takes an Epic caster. Good enough for me. 21x10 is about the right size door for any create of Large size or greater. Every door also needs to be made indestructable or a meleer with power attack will simply blow through it. A full attack action by a fighter with power attack at higher levels will blow apart an adamantine door easily. A higher level fighter/barbarian/whatever can tunnel through your typical stone dungeon by power attacking at about 1 foot/round. With leaping power attack even ridiculous hardnesses in the 100s can be easily defeated. Hello Superman. Short of sticking a permanent wall of force inside a permanent anti-magic field you're stuck making up your own spells.
Merestil Haye 04-23-07, 04:12 PM	Currently Knock simply suppresses Arcane Lock. Houserule that the Knock caster must succeed in a caster level check (DC 11 plus the caster level of the Arcane Lock spell) to suppress the Arcane Lock. Cap the bonus to the d20 roll at +10.
Sajek 04-23-07, 05:08 PM	Have the door be locked, but in a different kind of way. The lock on the door doesnt control a mechanism within the frame, it activates and deactivates a wall of force on the other side.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-23-07, 05:44 PM	Have the monsters reinforce the door. If the PC's start seeing small holes about 2 feet from the floor, they might be curious. When the dungeon dwellers want to bar the door, have them close it, lock it, and put solid iron bar in the hole and angled agains the door (in a slot for it). Door goes nowhere.
Shiikeras 04-23-07, 05:53 PM	It's not a door... It's a mimic. That will screw them up reeeaaal bad.
Shatteredtower 04-23-07, 05:56 PM	Here are a few suggestions for knock-proofing a door: 1. Equip the door with some equivalent to a ring of counterspells that has knock ready to go. Note that this does not prevent a rogue from using the Open Lock skill. 2. One true and one false lock on the door, the latter set to activate some sort of trap. For added difficulty, conceal the true lock (requires Search check to find). That way it presents an obstacle to both rogues and spellcasters, but the former are more adept at getting around it than the latter. 3. The door is held in place by the weld that supports it. Knock will cause the door to slip from its frame, possibly landing heavily (and attracting a lot of attention). Another option is to have a major discrepancy in pressure on one side of the door or the other, causing it either to block out (attack roll against anyone standing in front of it) or suck the party into the room (and possibly over a pit). This is a fair bit like #2, but it felt like it deserved its own entry. 4. The door doubles as a magical seal. Merely unlocking it would not disrupt the seal, but knock releases whatever it was that the seal had been keeping bound. 5. The door leads nowhere. It is either a false door in a wall (which can mess up the use of clairaudience/clairvoyance as well) or it opens into an empty alcove, possibly under the influence of an illusion. ("You enter a 10' x 10' room. You face an orc guarding a chest.") 6. The door radiates an antimagic field. Considering how expensive that is, you'd better make sure it's worth the expense. 7. The door is behind a permanent wall of force. This begs the question of how the party knows it's locked, of course. 8. The door is invisible or otherwise granted total concealment, or the wizard is made blind when the door is encountered. Knock is a targetted spell, and cannot be used without line of sight. Meanwhile, a rogue can still pick the invisible lock.)
NobodyRemembersThis 04-23-07, 06:03 PM	halucinatory terrain and have a "door" appear on the opposite wall of the real door. Reverse Locks. If "locked", it looks unlocked. When "unlocked" it looks locked. That should mess it up. This will mess with knock horribly - every casting will look like it fails. :smirk:
Novacat 04-23-07, 06:53 PM	The spell is limited to 10 square ft/level. A door that is 20x10 is 200 square feet. It takes a 20th level mage to open it. Make it 21 ft x 10 ft and it takes an Epic caster. Good enough for me. 21x10 is about the right size door for any create of Large size or greater. I.E. non-epic Knock will not open an Ogre sized Door. P.S. A normal human door is about 3 ft x 7 ft, or 21 square feet. A first or 2nd level caster can not use Knock to open a normal human sized door. I think Tarkin nailed it here... It's beautifully simple. I'm going to have to incorporate this into my Hadderoc campaign, and I'm not even the original poster. Thanks ahead of time.
DarkRhystar 04-23-07, 07:21 PM	"You want the monsters to stop them, you want the traps to stop them, you want your BBEG to stop them but you don't want a door to stop them, it just isn't exciting in DnD." I like this statement. I also think DMs should spend more time trying to challenge the PCs, not throwing arbitrary obstacles at them. If I wanted to spend an hour hunting for a stupid key to open a door or constantly run into doors that have "been barred from the other side," I will play a video game. In D&D, if the door becomes a problem... we make our own. halucinatory terrain and have a "door" appear on the opposite wall of the real door. Reverse Locks. If "locked", it looks unlocked. When "unlocked" it looks locked. That should mess it up. This will mess with knock horribly - every casting will look like it fails. :smirk: Knock doesn't lock things.
PhaedrusXY 04-24-07, 12:43 AM	If I wanted to spend an hour hunting for a stupid key to open a door or constantly run into doors that have "been barred from the other side," I will play a video game.My god... I HATED that in NWN. :headexplo
NobodyRemembersThis 04-24-07, 07:30 AM	Knock doesn't lock things.I am not saying it does. but, due to the non-magical illusion that it is locked, a reverse lock would really frustrate players. Party encounters reverse lock. Wizard: I cast Knock on lock DM: Your spell is cast. When you look at the locking mechanism, it looks locked. Party: wtf? Rogue: I pick the lock! (success) DM: the lock appears open. Rogue: I open the door DM: You attempt to open the door, and it resists you as if it is still locked. Party: WTF!?!?! :smirk:
TheCarrionCrawler 04-24-07, 07:53 AM	I thought I remembered seeing a Golem Door somewhere, possibly in Dragon magazine. When you unlock the door, the door becomes a golem.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-24-07, 08:44 AM	If I wanted to spend an hour hunting for a stupid key to open a door or constantly run into doors that have "been barred from the other side," I will play a video game. Well, the idea here was to create a puzzle to open the door as opposed to a random key hunt. If you ask me, it's rather boring if you can bypass every puzzle the same way, just by chopping down the door or hacking through the wall. I mean seriously, lets mix it up a little. It sucks when a DM runs a game where every single door happens to be invulnerable and you're forcefully railroaded from A to B. But if you're going to go through the trouble of making an elaborate puzzle door, it's kind of silly if the PCs can just kick it down like any typical wooden door. Then again, I also feel as though the D&D rules for destroying objects are far too lax. Even an adamantine door is painfully easy to destroy. I mean given time a 1st level character with a great axe could chop through a 3 foot wall of solid steel. Personally I've always felt that was pretty lame. There should still be ways to keep PCs out of places if to just prevent them from tunneling through dungeons.
ArcTan 04-24-07, 09:41 AM	The spell description itself shows you a few tricks that can be used to thwart it. Having the door held shut with chains is a good way to counter the spell. It specifically says it "loosens" such chains, though what that means is, I guess, up to you. (I would say it pretty clearly means it loosens them to the point where they can be dislodged, but whatever.) Another way you may consider is that, rather than having the door "locked", you simply have to turn a crank to slide it up. Thing is, the crank is on the INSIDE, and without turning the crank, the mechanisms are far too tight to allow normal human (or near-human) feats of strength to lift the door. This is actually what I most highly recommend: requiring a process other than turning a knob to open the door. Knock does not help the party in this case. For kicks, give the door a false knob just to throw them off. Why use so many words? Just say the door works like a portcullis. A portcullis can also be used to bar the door, preventing it from swinging open until it raised. Or the door can *be* a portcullis. Also, a door with lots of locking mechanisms takes lots of knock spells to open, perhaps more than the party can spare.
Thiez 04-24-07, 09:45 AM	Then again, I also feel as though the D&D rules for destroying objects are far too lax. Even an adamantine door is painfully easy to destroy. I mean given time a 1st level character with a great axe could chop through a 3 foot wall of solid steel. Given a large supply of great axes, so could you. 'Zhe' problem is the fact that objects don't get damaged when they are used to damage another object, so a PC can do it with a single great axe. It also helps there is no official ruling about becomming fatigued when doing something for hours and hours.
SunTzuWarmaster 04-24-07, 09:57 AM	Our party has a barbarian. When we encounter a door, If the rogue can't pick it, and the wizard can't Knock it, the barbarian smashes it. Doors are only a time-stall. The only reason not to smash them is that: a) you want to use it to stall enemies (spike it closed, arcane lock, whatever) b) you want to sell it Really, if I am breaking into a castle/dungeon, I am not concerned about the door. Pick lock and smash are possible at level 1. Knock is more finessable at level 3.
Inigo Carmine 04-24-07, 10:35 AM	a) you want to use it to stall enemies (spike it closed, arcane lock, whatever) b) you want to sell it And c) You don't want it to be obvious that someone who is probably not supposed to go through the door has gone through the door. d) You don't want to attract the attention of everything within half a mile.
SunTzuWarmaster 04-24-07, 11:24 AM	It is easy to disable a door silently. I have done so in real life by simply taking door off it's hinges. If you have a weapon that does acid damage, it will ignore hardness. Step 1: simply rub weapon vigorously against door until you reach hinges. Step 2: rub weapon against hinges Step 3: You (or party member), lowers door to the ground. Bonus points - prop up door after finished (most of it is still intact), make illusionary door, replace with another door (perhaps looted earlier). Steps 1-2 can easily be replaced with an Acid Splash cantrip. Alternate way to bypass door - Dimension Door (high cost though) to the other side. Other alternate ways to bypass doors - PHB2 Conjurer Immediate magic, any number of teleportation or ethereal effects. Also, a level 2 Silence spell with enable it so that you simply smashing the door does not make any noise. The ways to bypass a door are so numerous it isn't even funny. Knock is only the start, any determined played from any class can hack/smash/destroy/unlock/disable/teleport his way past a door.
Aracor 04-24-07, 12:05 PM	Acid damage does NOT ignore hardness. It simply isn't halved or quartered before hardness applies.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-24-07, 12:26 PM	Given a large supply of great axes, so could you. 'Zhe' problem is the fact that objects don't get damaged when they are used to damage another object, so a PC can do it with a single great axe. It also helps there is no official ruling about becomming fatigued when doing something for hours and hours. Not really no. While it's possible to gradually chip away at stone, thick metal simply isn't going to give unless you have an overwhelming amount of force. As far as removing the hinges, that's always possible, of course, only a fool is going to design a door such that the hinges are on the outside and accessible to intruders.
Thane26425 04-24-07, 12:28 PM	Somewhere in all the material, I read about a lock that appeared to be locked when it wasn't. It was designed to mess with theive's minds. Perhaps something similar for the mages? Two locks on the door: one locked and one with this feature. Knock unlocks on but actually locks the other. For less of a stretch, have the door sealed with a bar not across the door, but wedged against the door and angling down to the floor, fitting into special brackets. I have used the idea of a door going nowhere and added a touch from the old Warner Brother cartoons. The mage or theif would open the door only to find a wall. On the wall was a sign that said, "Imagine that, no door!" followed by a firetrap or symbol. One or two of those and the party should get pretty paranoid. In addition, you can also have a Permanant Illusion set up behind a door to look just like that, minus the symbol or whatever. Modify the note to add a comment about being merciful this time. However, on the other side of the door is a guard post or monster, all trained or with orders to wait a bit before attacking. The old horror movie staple of a shock (seeing the no door gag again) followed by relaxation which leads to the character getting jumped by the threated they expected in the first place (could be grounds for a surprise check at least). One last thing is to make a section that is nothing but little rooms and doors. Each room would have between 2 and 4 doors leading to other rooms, assuming that they are square. Other shapes, like hexagons could have more. These rooms could have traps or wandering monsters, or placed monsters like undead or constructs. To top it off, add a Guards and Wards spell. This can be cast as needed or made permanant. Use this to protect the treasury or other special room. The exit need not be on the far side or along a wall. A secret door leading to a stairwell somewhere in the middle works well too.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-24-07, 12:30 PM	the interpretation for that can go either way Aracor. I read it as dealing damage normally (ignoring hardness). You obviously read it ias dealing damage normally (observe hardness). Both interpretations are valid, as there is no other clarification anywehere in the rules. The sentence can be read either way, as damge dealt normally for magic ignores DR and observes energy resistance and immunity only.
tarkin 04-24-07, 12:42 PM	the interpretation for that can go either way Aracor. I read it as dealing damage normally (ignoring hardness). You obviously read it ias dealing damage normally (observe hardness). Both interpretations are valid, as there is no other clarification anywehere in the rules. The sentence can be read either way, as damge dealt normally for magic ignores DR and observes energy resistance and immunity only. Except that there is clear clarification in the rules Read the FAQ, it is part of the rules. In fact, on the WoTC web site it is called "Game Rule FAQ". It clearly agrees with Aracor, bottom of page 61 and again at the bottom of page 84. If you want to ignore the rules, go ahead. But if you play by the actual rules, then you are blatantly and obviously wrong. Aracor is clearly and obviously right.
Aracor 04-24-07, 12:51 PM	the interpretation for that can go either way Aracor. I read it as dealing damage normally (ignoring hardness). You obviously read it ias dealing damage normally (observe hardness). Both interpretations are valid, as there is no other clarification anywehere in the rules. The sentence can be read either way, as damge dealt normally for magic ignores DR and observes energy resistance and immunity only.Actually, you're only right in regards to creatures. Per object rules, when damage is dealt to objects, hardness normally applies, whether energy or physical damage. So NORMALLY for objects, hardness applies. You're basically applying creature rules to non-creatures to get your interpretation.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-24-07, 01:15 PM	Except that there is clear clarification in the rules Read the FAQ, it is part of the rules. In fact, on the WoTC web site it is called "Game Rule FAQ". It clearly agrees with Aracor, bottom of page 61 and again at the bottom of page 84. If you want to ignore the rules, go ahead. But if you play by the actual rules, then you are blatantly and obviously wrong. Aracor is clearly and obviously right.I cry foul Trakin - The FAQ is not erratta. It is written by one man who has frequently been proven wrong - it has no more weight than a feather.
Aracor 04-24-07, 01:33 PM	I cry foul Trakin - The FAQ is not erratta. It is written by one man who has frequently been proven wrong - it has no more weight than a feather.Nobody said the FAQ is errata. However, in this case, it CLARIFIES a rule that isn't clear. It doesn't take errata to do that. You agreed that the sentence could be read either way. The FAQ is simply saying which way to read it is correct, which it can certainly do. It's not changing anything. That's what errata is for. And besides, like I said. You're applying creature rules to objects. Hardness is different than either damage reduction or energy resistance.
mugguod 04-24-07, 02:11 PM	I'm designing a heavily traped dungeon and I want some doors not to be able to be opened with knock. I might just end up saying it dosen't work, but I'd like to find some rules / spells to stop it. I've been reading the replies to this question and I'm getting confused. Was the original question "How do I make a locked door that can be unlocked by mundane means, but not a Knock spell?" or was it "How can I make a locked door that is impossible to unlock?"
NobodyRemembersThis 04-24-07, 02:26 PM	Nobody said the FAQ is errata.]Quote=Tarkin]Except that there is clear clarification in the rules This is why I cry foul - passing off the "sages" drunken ramblings as rules errata is blatantly wrong. It is one opinion that is very often wrong and dissagreed with - touting it as "fact" for a discussion is counterproductive - it is not a fact.And besides, like I said. You're applying creature rules to objects. Hardness is different than either damage reduction or energy resistance.This however, is a very good arguement. Not sure I agree with it (for my campaigns anyway), but it is the best arguement I have seen for your interpretation.
Aracor 04-24-07, 03:03 PM	You're still not getting it. Errata is different than clarification. Errata is changes. Errata is when they have a typo or are changing something for balance, such as saying divine favor is a maximum of +3 rather than +6. That's a change; which is the function of errata. The FAQ is entirely different. The FAQ (isn't supposed to) make changes. It's supposed to clarify what a specific wording means. If something can be read two different ways, the FAQ is justified in saying 'this is the way it was intended'. It's not changing anything, it's just saying that of the different ways it can be read, one is correct. That's within the FAQ's domain.
Thane26425 04-24-07, 03:52 PM	I've been reading the replies to this question and I'm getting confused. Was the original question "How do I make a locked door that can be unlocked by mundane means, but not a Knock spell?" or was it "How can I make a locked door that is impossible to unlock?" Topics do have a tendency to wander. One way to counter Knock is the place 3 locks on a high value door. Have the locks made so as to automatically relock after one round. It would take two mages or a mage and someone that could use a wand or scroll to open said door. Say you have a door designed to be opened only from one side, like one in guard post protecting deeper access into the place. Have a series of sliding bolts and station a guard or skeleton there to keep relocking the bolts unless ordered otherwise. But the main thing to remember is that if one person can make someone, someone else can break it. If nothing else, the characters could find another way around or make one by breaking through the walls.
mugguod 04-24-07, 04:23 PM	My question (for the original poster) was "What is it you're really trying to do?" 1) "Are your players equiped with a limitless supply of knock spells?" 2) "Is the spell caster opening everything so that the party's rogue doesn't have to do his job?" If either of those are the problem, you don't have to make the doors 'Knock-Proof". Just add traps to the door. A Knock spell will unlock the door but not disable trap attached to the door, or better yet the locks. 3) "Are you trying to force the party to go past these doors without opening them?" Then why are there doors in this hallway, at all?
Shatteredtower 04-24-07, 05:39 PM	I also think DMs should spend more time trying to challenge the PCs, not throwing arbitrary obstacles at them.I've found that one person's arbitrary obstacle is another's challenge. The point in making a door that does not respond to the standard methods is not to make it unpassable. It's still a delaying mechanism, slightly less effective than a wall, moreso than your average windowpane or wooden shutter. By all means, a party should be able to find means around a particularly troubling door that proves extraordinarily difficult to get through. The point should be that such a door offers the most effective route to a given destination to one that can use it. There should be very good reasons for such a door. It might be the only access to a vampire's secret tunnel system, at least for anyone unable to assume gaseous form. If such a door exists, it must have been provided for less adaptable (but highly trusted) servants and guests. If his other entrances are through vents into rooms located above, it may not that hard to smash your way into the vampire's lair, but it's harder to do it without creating such a readily noticeable disturbance. It might be the exit to the BBEG's secret escape tunnel, discovered by a resourceful party that is looking to save the trouble of fighting their way through the main gates (and everything between them and his quarters). In these examples, the party has at least two options for getting to their target. Such options may even reward the party that takes prisoners now and then, on the chance that one of them might know something useful about this particular door. As long as taking prisoners isn't actually required, you're not demanding too much of the players.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-24-07, 05:59 PM	You're still not getting it. Errata is different than clarification. Errata is changes. Errata is when they have a typo or are changing something for balance, such as saying divine favor is a maximum of +3 rather than +6. That's a change; which is the function of errata. The FAQ is entirely different. The FAQ (isn't supposed to) make changes. It's supposed to clarify what a specific wording means. If something can be read two different ways, the FAQ is justified in saying 'this is the way it was intended'. It's not changing anything, it's just saying that of the different ways it can be read, one is correct. That's within the FAQ's domain.You're still not getting it. The FAQ is just one man's opinions - and he is wrong as often as he is right. His "clarifications" are just an opinion. If the rule truly does need clarification, it gets errata'd. End of story. The FAQ is useless in an arguement and carries no weight.
Aracor 04-24-07, 06:11 PM	You're still not getting it. The FAQ is just one man's opinions - and he is wrong as often as he is right. His "clarifications" are just an opinion. If the rule truly does need clarification, it gets errata'd. End of story. The FAQ is useless in an arguement and carries no weight.How so? The main FAQ page says nothing about being written by a single person. It's official according to the website. I have to say, it sounds to me like you're making allegations without proof. Can you cite proof of that allegation?
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-24-07, 07:18 PM	My question (for the original poster) was "What is it you're really trying to do?" 4) The door is linked to a puzzle and you want the PCs to solve it to move on, as opposed to just chopping down the door.
Perseus_Stoned 04-24-07, 07:30 PM	The spell is limited to 10 square ft/level. A door that is 20x10 is 200 square feet. It takes a 20th level mage to open it. Make it 21 ft x 10 ft and it takes an Epic caster. Good enough for me. 21x10 is about the right size door for any create of Large size or greater. I.E. non-epic Knock will not open an Ogre sized Door. P.S. A normal human door is about 3 ft x 7 ft, or 21 square feet. This... was beautiful. Thank you Tarkin. This is why I cry foul - passing off the "sages" drunken ramblings as rules errata is blatantly wrong. 1) It would be incredibly interesting to hear one ramble drunkenly over the internet. 2) They have yet to say it is rules errata. You're still not getting it. Errata is different than clarification. Errata is changes. Errata is when they have a typo or are changing something for balance, such as saying divine favor is a maximum of +3 rather than +6. That's a change; which is the function of errata. The FAQ is entirely different. The FAQ (isn't supposed to) make changes. It's supposed to clarify what a specific wording means. If something can be read two different ways, the FAQ is justified in saying 'this is the way it was intended'. It's not changing anything, it's just saying that of the different ways it can be read, one is correct. That's within the FAQ's domain. Aracor, regardless of the argument, this was beautifully put. Thank you.
Charlie_PFC 04-26-07, 02:12 PM	Originally Posted by tarkin The spell is limited to 10 square ft/level. Are you sure it isnt a 10 ft square? A 10ft square being 10ft*10ft or 100 square ft as in the space that a large creature takes up.
Drachasor 04-26-07, 02:44 PM	Are you sure it isnt a 10 ft square? A 10ft square being 10ft*10ft or 100 square ft as in the space that a large creature takes up. Yes, because it is 10 square feet, not a 10 foot square. The two are quite different. To go into detail, 10 square feet, is 10 ft^2, since "square feet" are 1 foot by 1 foot squares. (It is a standard measurement of area). A 10 foot square, is a square that is 10 feet on each side. -Drachasor P.S. If it helps, I'm a physics major, so I know these things. : )
Perseus_Stoned 04-26-07, 02:44 PM	Are you sure it isnt a 10 ft square? A 10ft square being 10ft*10ft or 100 square ft as in the space that a large creature takes up. Yes, Tarkin is correct; he quoted directly from the SRD.
DarkRhystar 04-26-07, 10:36 PM	My god... I HATED that in NWN. :headexplo Didn't we all... I am not saying it does. but, due to the non-magical illusion that it is locked, a reverse lock would really frustrate players. Party encounters reverse lock. Wizard: I cast Knock on lock DM: Your spell is cast. When you look at the locking mechanism, it looks locked. Party: wtf? Rogue: I pick the lock! (success) DM: the lock appears open. Rogue: I open the door DM: You attempt to open the door, and it resists you as if it is still locked. Party: WTF!?!?! :smirk: Not really. Knock only unlocks things. These kind of locks should be figured into the Open Lock DC for the door otherwise. Well, the idea here was to create a puzzle to open the door as opposed to a random key hunt. If you ask me, it's rather boring if you can bypass every puzzle the same way, just by chopping down the door or hacking through the wall. I mean seriously, lets mix it up a little. I also find it depressing that every puzzle you can think of could be solved by "chopping down the door." The problem isn't in the player's approach to the door puzzle, it's that the DM only uses door puzzles it seems. So yes, let us mix it up a little. ;) Personally I've always felt that was pretty lame. There should still be ways to keep PCs out of places if to just prevent them from tunneling through dungeons. Why? Surely you can think of something more interesting than a wall as an obstacle. I've found that one person's arbitrary obstacle is another's challenge. The point in making a door that does not respond to the standard methods is not to make it unpassable. It's still a delaying mechanism, slightly less effective than a wall, moreso than your average windowpane or wooden shutter. By all means, a party should be able to find means around a particularly troubling door that proves extraordinarily difficult to get through. The point should be that such a door offers the most effective route to a given destination to one that can use it. There should be very good reasons for such a door. It might be the only access to a vampire's secret tunnel system, at least for anyone unable to assume gaseous form. If such a door exists, it must have been provided for less adaptable (but highly trusted) servants and guests. If his other entrances are through vents into rooms located above, it may not that hard to smash your way into the vampire's lair, but it's harder to do it without creating such a readily noticeable disturbance. It might be the exit to the BBEG's secret escape tunnel, discovered by a resourceful party that is looking to save the trouble of fighting their way through the main gates (and everything between them and his quarters). In these examples, the party has at least two options for getting to their target. Such options may even reward the party that takes prisoners now and then, on the chance that one of them might know something useful about this particular door. As long as taking prisoners isn't actually required, you're not demanding too much of the players. Fair enough.
elgamor 04-27-07, 01:14 AM	ive got an interesting idea to stop a chop happy party. it requires some pritty powerfull magic but a very high lv dungeon could have it. a permanant time stop enchantment on the door and walls. the surfaces would be outside the players "time", just as in the spell timestop. you couldnt hurt them at all, yet they would still bar your passage. you could also still interact with them normally, such as picking the locks and opening unlocked doors. but magic and brute force would be negated almost completly.