countering with spell like abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

countering with spell like abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
squirrelnest
02-05-08, 12:30 PM Can a spell be countered with a spell like ability?
Can a spell like ability be countered with a spell?
Damned slayer
02-05-08, 12:46 PM read conterspell section
No
No

and dispel magic can't be used to conterspell either

already been discussed you should go back and search for that discussion
groveborn
02-05-08, 02:30 PM To be more clear.

Spell like abilities can neither be targetted for countering, nor can they be used to counter, even if the the spell like ability is Dispel Magic.

They can be used to dispel their polar opposites as though they were the real deal. Light vs. Dark...so on.
Nephlite
02-05-08, 03:21 PM Can a spell be countered with a spell like ability?
Can a spell like ability be countered with a spell?

Dispel magic can be used to counter a spell, but it may not work. As normal need to roll check versus Dispel DC.
MAdgryphon
02-05-08, 03:43 PM Wait. Really? As in, a warlock's Voracious Dispelling can't be used to counter actual spells becuase it's a spell-like ability?
Nephlite
02-05-08, 09:11 PM Wait. Really? As in, a warlock's Voracious Dispelling can't be used to counter actual spells becuase it's a spell-like ability?

Dispel Magic is an exception. It doesn't auto counter.
Malek2991
02-06-08, 12:00 AM Wait. Really? As in, a warlock's Voracious Dispelling can't be used to counter actual spells becuase it's a spell-like ability?

I don't know about Voracious Dispelling but the Dark Invocation Caster's Lament (complete Mage) specificaly states it can be used to counterspell as Greater Dispell Magic, but only spells of 7th level or lower. (Note since its normal effect is Break Enchantment this does not imply Voracious Dispelling can't be used to counterspell.)
runestar
02-06-08, 12:38 AM You could however, ready a dispel magic to cast just as the creature uses its SLA. If the spell is appropriate (it has a duration other than instantaneous), its effect would end just as it takes place, which can simulate counterspelling.:)
MAdgryphon
02-06-08, 10:43 AM I don't know about Voracious Dispelling but the Dark Invocation Caster's Lament (complete Mage) specificaly states it can be used to counterspell as Greater Dispell Magic, but only spells of 7th level or lower. (Note since its normal effect is Break Enchantment this does not imply Voracious Dispelling can't be used to counterspell.)

Well the description for voracious dispelling says that you can use dispel magic, as the spell.
Malek2991
02-06-08, 10:21 PM Well the description for voracious dispelling says that you can use dispel magic, as the spell.

Yeah I usually allow Voracious Dispelling (or other Dispel magic SLA's) to counterspell, but there is no official rulling allowing it (since it says you can't use SLA's tp counterspell, but doesn't say you can't use the counterspell option for dispel magic).
groveborn
02-07-08, 12:09 AM Yeah I usually allow Voracious Dispelling (or other Dispel magic SLA's) to counterspell, but there is no official rulling allowing it (since it says you can't use SLA's tp counterspell, but doesn't say you can't use the counterspell option for dispel magic).

Using the counterspell option in Dispel Magic is still done using the Counterspell action. Since you can't perform such an action with SLA's, you can't use Dispel Magic to counterspell when it's a spell like.
MAdgryphon
02-07-08, 01:35 AM Using the counterspell option in Dispel Magic is still done using the Counterspell action. Since you can't perform such an action with SLA's, you can't use Dispel Magic to counterspell when it's a spell like.

What, do you mean readying an action to counter the next spell cast by a given opposing caster? Because, since spell like abilities are standard actions, unless otherwise noted, you in fact can use them in the "readied action" action. What's wrong with that?
groveborn
02-07-08, 02:49 AM What, do you mean readying an action to counter the next spell cast by a given opposing caster? Because, since spell like abilities are standard actions, unless otherwise noted, you in fact can use them in the "readied action" action. What's wrong with that?

Page 315 of the Monster Manual, under Spell Like Abilities:
Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

That seems fairly cut and dry. Cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. There are no exemptions listed. I'd imagine that the Warlock class has some feature or feat that can be used to get around this limitation.
Father Dale
02-07-08, 10:52 AM I'd agree with graveborn, its pretty cut and dry.

The only 'possible' exception seems to be using Dispel Magic. However, I don't think even that will work.

The big problem would be knowing that the creature is even using a spell-like ability. Since it uses no components, its not really doing anything. Its not speaking, its not moving its hands, its not fiddling with bat poo or rose petals; it just 'wills' the magic into being. Heck it could be giving a little speech about how tasty you will be simmered in garlic while its using its SLA. So even with a readied action, you can't really perceive its using a SLA until after the SLA comes into effect. I mean really, its just standing there. Then all of a sudden some magic comes into effect. I don't see how its possible to counterspell that.

You could of course Dispel whatever effect comes into being, assuming its not instantaneous and it is perceptible to you. But then that might be too little too late.
Merestil Haye
02-07-08, 11:40 AM I'd agree with graveborn, its pretty cut and dry.

The only 'possible' exception seems to be using Dispel Magic. However, I don't think even that will work.

The big problem would be knowing that the creature is even using a spell-like ability. Since it uses no components, its not really doing anything. Its not speaking, its not moving its hands, its not fiddling with bat poo or rose petals; it just 'wills' the magic into being. Heck it could be giving a little speech about how tasty you will be simmered in garlic while its using its SLA. So even with a readied action, you can't really perceive its using a SLA until after the SLA comes into effect. I mean really, its just standing there. Then all of a sudden some magic comes into effect. I don't see how its possible to counterspell that.The thing is, since use of an SLA provokes an AoO in exactly the same way that casting a spell does (yes, even a silent, stilled spell with no material components), you do know it's doing something. That knowledge is all you actually need to use Dispel Magic to disrupt the SLA. You can't identify it with a Spellcraft check, but you don't need to - all you need to know is that it's employing magic in some way, and that you do know.

Since you don't know what it's doing until the SLA takes effect, I would not agree that you can use one of the "paired opposites" to counter the SLA, as was suggested above. If the creature is throwing a Slow SLA, you can't use Haste to counter that SLA, but you could use Haste to dispel the effects of the Slow SLA when you acted. (And vice versa).

There's a RotG article that states using Dispel Magic to counter a spell isn't a counterspell per se, but acts by disrupting the flow of magic the creature is trying to channel. If that is a correct characterisation, then certainly Dispel Magic can counter an SLA in this sense, and a Dispel Magic SLA could be used to counter a spell - because you're doing something generic.

I'm not convinced, although I want to be, because the designers called both actions "counterspelling" and we know that if they intend to differentiate between two things they use different names for those things. (Hunt up the FAQ discussion of the difference between Touch Attacks and Incorporeal Touch Attacks to see what I mean). Since they used the same name, they mean the same thing.

That being said, I don't think the game will fall apart if you allow Dispel Magic to disrupt an SLA as the creature casts it, or allow a Dispel Magic SLA to disrupt a spell.

You could of course Dispel whatever effect comes into being, assuming its not instantaneous and it is perceptible to you. But then that might be too little too late.It might indeed. But sometimes it's your only option.
Father Dale
02-07-08, 11:58 AM The thing is, since use of an SLA provokes an AoO in exactly the same way that casting a spell does (yes, even a silent, stilled spell with no material components), you do know it's doing something. That knowledge is all you actually need to use Dispel Magic to disrupt the SLA. You can't identify it with a Spellcraft check, but you don't need to - all you need to know is that it's employing magic in some way, and that you do know.

But just because a creature provokes an AoO doesn't mean you know why it provoked said AoO.

All an AoO represents is a creature making itself susceptible to attacks.
From the SRD:
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.

In the case of a creature using an SLA, yes it provokes an AoO. But as far as anyone else can tell, its just letting its guard down some; WHY its letting its guard down is not clear.

And if its making a Concentration check to cast defensively, then its not even letting its guard down at all. All an observer could tell is that it looks like its defending itself.

I just don't think using an SLA imparts enough information to allow an observer to know that a creature is using an SLA. (Would an observer know that a wizard, who is under a hold monster spell and is standing as still as a statue, is casting a silent and stilled spell?) That, combined with the pretty explicit ruling that SLA's cannot be counterspelled, seems to be sufficient to rule out even Dispel Magic for this.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
squirrelnest 02-05-08, 12:30 PM	Can a spell be countered with a spell like ability? Can a spell like ability be countered with a spell?
Damned slayer 02-05-08, 12:46 PM	read conterspell section No No and dispel magic can't be used to conterspell either already been discussed you should go back and search for that discussion
groveborn 02-05-08, 02:30 PM	To be more clear. Spell like abilities can neither be targetted for countering, nor can they be used to counter, even if the the spell like ability is Dispel Magic. They can be used to dispel their polar opposites as though they were the real deal. Light vs. Dark...so on.
Nephlite 02-05-08, 03:21 PM	Can a spell be countered with a spell like ability? Can a spell like ability be countered with a spell? Dispel magic can be used to counter a spell, but it may not work. As normal need to roll check versus Dispel DC.
MAdgryphon 02-05-08, 03:43 PM	Wait. Really? As in, a warlock's Voracious Dispelling can't be used to counter actual spells becuase it's a spell-like ability?
Nephlite 02-05-08, 09:11 PM	Wait. Really? As in, a warlock's Voracious Dispelling can't be used to counter actual spells becuase it's a spell-like ability? Dispel Magic is an exception. It doesn't auto counter.
Malek2991 02-06-08, 12:00 AM	Wait. Really? As in, a warlock's Voracious Dispelling can't be used to counter actual spells becuase it's a spell-like ability? I don't know about Voracious Dispelling but the Dark Invocation Caster's Lament (complete Mage) specificaly states it can be used to counterspell as Greater Dispell Magic, but only spells of 7th level or lower. (Note since its normal effect is Break Enchantment this does not imply Voracious Dispelling can't be used to counterspell.)
runestar 02-06-08, 12:38 AM	You could however, ready a dispel magic to cast just as the creature uses its SLA. If the spell is appropriate (it has a duration other than instantaneous), its effect would end just as it takes place, which can simulate counterspelling.:)
MAdgryphon 02-06-08, 10:43 AM	I don't know about Voracious Dispelling but the Dark Invocation Caster's Lament (complete Mage) specificaly states it can be used to counterspell as Greater Dispell Magic, but only spells of 7th level or lower. (Note since its normal effect is Break Enchantment this does not imply Voracious Dispelling can't be used to counterspell.) Well the description for voracious dispelling says that you can use dispel magic, as the spell.
Malek2991 02-06-08, 10:21 PM	Well the description for voracious dispelling says that you can use dispel magic, as the spell. Yeah I usually allow Voracious Dispelling (or other Dispel magic SLA's) to counterspell, but there is no official rulling allowing it (since it says you can't use SLA's tp counterspell, but doesn't say you can't use the counterspell option for dispel magic).
groveborn 02-07-08, 12:09 AM	Yeah I usually allow Voracious Dispelling (or other Dispel magic SLA's) to counterspell, but there is no official rulling allowing it (since it says you can't use SLA's tp counterspell, but doesn't say you can't use the counterspell option for dispel magic). Using the counterspell option in Dispel Magic is still done using the Counterspell action. Since you can't perform such an action with SLA's, you can't use Dispel Magic to counterspell when it's a spell like.
MAdgryphon 02-07-08, 01:35 AM	Using the counterspell option in Dispel Magic is still done using the Counterspell action. Since you can't perform such an action with SLA's, you can't use Dispel Magic to counterspell when it's a spell like. What, do you mean readying an action to counter the next spell cast by a given opposing caster? Because, since spell like abilities are standard actions, unless otherwise noted, you in fact can use them in the "readied action" action. What's wrong with that?
groveborn 02-07-08, 02:49 AM	What, do you mean readying an action to counter the next spell cast by a given opposing caster? Because, since spell like abilities are standard actions, unless otherwise noted, you in fact can use them in the "readied action" action. What's wrong with that? Page 315 of the Monster Manual, under Spell Like Abilities: Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. That seems fairly cut and dry. Cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. There are no exemptions listed. I'd imagine that the Warlock class has some feature or feat that can be used to get around this limitation.
Father Dale 02-07-08, 10:52 AM	I'd agree with graveborn, its pretty cut and dry. The only 'possible' exception seems to be using Dispel Magic. However, I don't think even that will work. The big problem would be knowing that the creature is even using a spell-like ability. Since it uses no components, its not really doing anything. Its not speaking, its not moving its hands, its not fiddling with bat poo or rose petals; it just 'wills' the magic into being. Heck it could be giving a little speech about how tasty you will be simmered in garlic while its using its SLA. So even with a readied action, you can't really perceive its using a SLA until after the SLA comes into effect. I mean really, its just standing there. Then all of a sudden some magic comes into effect. I don't see how its possible to counterspell that. You could of course Dispel whatever effect comes into being, assuming its not instantaneous and it is perceptible to you. But then that might be too little too late.
Merestil Haye 02-07-08, 11:40 AM	I'd agree with graveborn, its pretty cut and dry. The only 'possible' exception seems to be using Dispel Magic. However, I don't think even that will work. The big problem would be knowing that the creature is even using a spell-like ability. Since it uses no components, its not really doing anything. Its not speaking, its not moving its hands, its not fiddling with bat poo or rose petals; it just 'wills' the magic into being. Heck it could be giving a little speech about how tasty you will be simmered in garlic while its using its SLA. So even with a readied action, you can't really perceive its using a SLA until after the SLA comes into effect. I mean really, its just standing there. Then all of a sudden some magic comes into effect. I don't see how its possible to counterspell that.The thing is, since use of an SLA provokes an AoO in exactly the same way that casting a spell does (yes, even a silent, stilled spell with no material components), you do know it's doing something. That knowledge is all you actually need to use Dispel Magic to disrupt the SLA. You can't identify it with a Spellcraft check, but you don't need to - all you need to know is that it's employing magic in some way, and that you do know. Since you don't know what it's doing until the SLA takes effect, I would not agree that you can use one of the "paired opposites" to counter the SLA, as was suggested above. If the creature is throwing a Slow SLA, you can't use Haste to counter that SLA, but you could use Haste to dispel the effects of the Slow SLA when you acted. (And vice versa). There's a RotG article that states using Dispel Magic to counter a spell isn't a counterspell per se, but acts by disrupting the flow of magic the creature is trying to channel. If that is a correct characterisation, then certainly Dispel Magic can counter an SLA in this sense, and a Dispel Magic SLA could be used to counter a spell - because you're doing something generic. I'm not convinced, although I want to be, because the designers called both actions "counterspelling" and we know that if they intend to differentiate between two things they use different names for those things. (Hunt up the FAQ discussion of the difference between Touch Attacks and Incorporeal Touch Attacks to see what I mean). Since they used the same name, they mean the same thing. That being said, I don't think the game will fall apart if you allow Dispel Magic to disrupt an SLA as the creature casts it, or allow a Dispel Magic SLA to disrupt a spell. You could of course Dispel whatever effect comes into being, assuming its not instantaneous and it is perceptible to you. But then that might be too little too late.It might indeed. But sometimes it's your only option.
Father Dale 02-07-08, 11:58 AM	The thing is, since use of an SLA provokes an AoO in exactly the same way that casting a spell does (yes, even a silent, stilled spell with no material components), you do know it's doing something. That knowledge is all you actually need to use Dispel Magic to disrupt the SLA. You can't identify it with a Spellcraft check, but you don't need to - all you need to know is that it's employing magic in some way, and that you do know. But just because a creature provokes an AoO doesn't mean you know why it provoked said AoO. All an AoO represents is a creature making itself susceptible to attacks. From the SRD: Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. In the case of a creature using an SLA, yes it provokes an AoO. But as far as anyone else can tell, its just letting its guard down some; WHY its letting its guard down is not clear. And if its making a Concentration check to cast defensively, then its not even letting its guard down at all. All an observer could tell is that it looks like its defending itself. I just don't think using an SLA imparts enough information to allow an observer to know that a creature is using an SLA. (Would an observer know that a wizard, who is under a hold monster spell and is standing as still as a statue, is casting a silent and stilled spell?) That, combined with the pretty explicit ruling that SLA's cannot be counterspelled, seems to be sufficient to rule out even Dispel Magic for this.