Counters to True Ressurection [Archive] - Wizards Community

Counters to True Ressurection [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wonlee76
09-05-06, 01:23 PM Hey folks, looking for some advice on how to counter True Ressurection as I'm thinking of ways to assassinate people in the world.

Generally, I run a high magic world so in most major cities True Ressurection is available if you can pay the price but I was thinking in a world of politics, assassins and magic, how the hell does an assassin actually accomplish his goal. He assassinates a noble, gets rid of the remains, and yet True Ress can still raise the body (presuming the target has enough wealth to pay for the costs of course).

Are there any tricks or tactics that players or DMs have come up with to counter True Ress? I'm not looking for houserules or anything. Just something that makes logical sense other then a DM saying "Because I said so."
Thiez
09-05-06, 01:37 PM Trap the Soul?
wellofworlds
09-05-06, 01:41 PM There "trap a soul" spell that sucks the soul into a gem, and then a it a takes a wish and Ressurection or True Ressurection w/o body to raise a guy. The only other way I can think of, is go to the plane that spirt of the person was sent to and destroy the spirit before it is raised. I would choose the first choice because going to the plane and entering a god domain to kill a servant is just plain foolish.

Note there are swords that trap the soul of a individual, that might work.
tarkin
09-05-06, 01:42 PM When I was playing back in 2nd edition, we had this DM that kept ressurecting people. We developed a motto (even had it carved into one of our weapons)

Always take the Head.

For 3.0+, you can translate that into "Take their soul"
ninja1
09-05-06, 01:54 PM If you guys allow the Book of Vile Darkness, you can sacrifice the captured soul to your dark god, thus destroying it forever.
Milo HoBo
09-05-06, 02:00 PM Unname from ToM.

It can still be undone, but everything can with enough magic. Apply contact poision to the body so that the cleric who tries to raise the body will be poisioned.

:devil:
DrMorganes
09-05-06, 02:12 PM Meh. You're the DM, right?

You're overlooking some basic world-building information that will handily prevent supurfulous use of various resurrection magic without resorting to a Trap the Soul-casting assassin. To wit:

25,000gp is a LOT of money. True, most nobles have an excess of cash, but the vast majority of an individual noble's fortune is tied up in non-cash assets: land, livestock, and the like. A good portion of what's left goes to upkeep of those assets and paying various staff. Few but the most powerful nobles or merchants can come up with 25,000gp in actual coin in short order - if at all!

The material component for True Resurrection is 25,000gp of DIAMONDS. Not 25,000gp. Not 25,000gp of gems. DIAMONDS. Diamonds are hard enough to come by in modern times (more (http://www.maloofjewelry.com/education/history-of-diamonds.htm)). Unless you've been foolish enough to place a major religious capital smack dab on top of a rich vein of diamonds, coming up with 25,000gp of them is going to be a major undertaking - an adventure all of its own potentially costing as much (if not more) than the value of the diamonds themselves.

Now take a look at the DMG's guildelines for how many NPCs of a given class and level there are in the world. Clerics able to cast True Resurrection are few and far between. Those that DO exist will not be readily available to the general population, and even nobility will have to "take a number" in most cases. Unless said noble is very influential and involved in a given faith, odds are you'll receive condolences for your loss, offers to pray for the soul of the departed, and an admonition to cling to <<insert diety's name here>> for solace from your grief.

From a game standpoint, ALL resurrection magic shares the limitation of requiring the soul to be willing to return. By far, NPCs will be content with their afterlife. Let's not overlook the problem of Inevitables, either. Clerics who too often violate the natural order by performing resurrections willy-nilly will find themselves face-to-face with a very angry, very powerful Outsider intent on stopping such irresponsible activity.

In short, resurrection is a plot item and a means to allow heros (that is, PCs) to return to the game after some ignoble death (like that goblin rogue landing a lucky Critical Hit or failing a Reflex save and impaling yourself on the excrement-covered spikes at the bottom of a kobold's trap). Making it readily available cheapens its impact and lessens the fear of death!
Thiez
09-05-06, 02:27 PM "The material component for True Resurrection is 25,000gp of DIAMONDS. Not 25,000gp. Not 25,000gp of gems. DIAMONDS. Diamonds are hard enough to come by in modern times (more). Unless you've been foolish enough to place a major religious capital smack dab on top of a rich vein of diamonds, coming up with 25,000gp of them is going to be a major undertaking - an adventure all of its own potentially costing as much (if not more) than the value of the diamonds themselves."

Eeerh, if it would cost 25,000 gp to get a single tiny diamond, then that diamond would be worth 25,000 gp, so I see no reason why it would cost much more than that to get that diamond.
Caliborn
09-05-06, 02:30 PM Follow the soul to the plane it ends up in and destroy the petitioner the soul has become.
Joseph_Silver
09-05-06, 02:40 PM Use Lesser Planar Binding to call a Barghest and have him eat the target's remains (effectively devouring the target's soul). Souls eaten by a barghest only have a 50% chance of being affected by True Resurrection. If the first True Ressurection fails, then the soul is lost forever.
kliate
09-05-06, 02:50 PM I've had thoughts about this style of assassination. It would certainly be pricey, since you're trying to prevent even a 26,530gp spell from undoing your efforts.

My solution is to give the Assassin Thinaun Daggers. Not *A* Thinaun Dagger, not *A Few* Thinaun Daggers, but a sizeable collection of them, numbered in the dozens.

Naturally, the replacement cost of the dagger is added onto the expense of the contract. Hiring this particular Assassin is going to call for around 50,000gp a hit, I figure.

Now, there are some added bonuses. The Assassin would keep the daggers very well protected, and they wouldn't exactly be "neatly labeled for PC reference". Rather, the daggers would have the sequential number of the victim engraved on the hilt, such that the PCs would have little to no idea who they might be calling back if they even manage to acquire the collection of weapons.

This kind of character would probably be in the neighbourhood of a CR16+, with significantly more wealth than might be expected from an NPC of their level (when one counts the daggers, anyway).
Joseph_Silver
09-05-06, 02:51 PM I have another idea.

Kidnap the target, cast Mind Blank on him, and then cast Temporal Stasis on him.

Sure, he's not dead, but noone will be able to find him using magic.
Thiez
09-05-06, 03:10 PM Temperal stasis affects a creature, not the spells that affect the creature at that time. Mindblank would run out as usual.
IMarvinTPA
09-05-06, 03:30 PM Cast Raise Dead on the body then hide it. It can't be raised until the undead created by it is destroyed.

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can't resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

And that applies through the whole chain of spells. The soul powers the body until it is freed.

IMarv
Milo HoBo
09-05-06, 03:30 PM You could just continually cast mind blank on the target without the temporal stasis. Eventually they die of old age. Then they don't come back.
mvincent
09-05-06, 03:37 PM 1) Cast animate dead on the remains before sealing them up or hiding them (possibly on another plane). (doh. IMarvinTPA beat me to this one)
2) Age the person to death (possibly on another plane with an altered time rate, which could be created via the genesis spell)
3) Age the remains (again, on another plane with a drastically altered time rate)
4) Raise and slay the victim multiple times until he runs out of levels (and constitution even). Even if he is brought back, he'll just be a first level mook.
5) Coup de grace (automatic critical) with a "Nine Lives Stealer" (assuming your DM views this blade as similar to Stormbringer).
SageBahamut
09-05-06, 03:43 PM That's what Nondetection and Imprisonment are for.

If you're playing a very high-magic campaign, where things like True Resurrection are commonplace, it's not unheard of for such things to be cheaper than DMG standard.
(For a real-world comparison, consider simple cotton. At one point cotton was so rare and expensive that... I believe it was Queen Elizabeth I ... owned exactly one cotton dress and never wore it because it was too valueable. Most simple clothes then were wool or other simple cloths. Now, who doesn't have at least one pair of cotton underwear? Thus do things become cheaper as they become readily available.)

Also, resurrection-defeating D&D magic is rare and high-level because resurrection magic is rare and high-level. If "rare" isn't true in your game, then you need to reconsider.
Maybe put in a couple of original spells meant to undo resurrections or manipulate them. (How creepy would it be to resurrect the wrong soul into your fighter's body?) Maybe one that makes it so the soul is bottled for a short time, so only a Resurrection caster of higher level can resurrect the victim.
wonlee76
09-05-06, 03:54 PM Thanks for the ideas so far though I see a few flaws in a few ideas. Keep them coming.

As for the original post, it was a question in the context of a high level campaign where the targets will be more powerful NPCs types who potentially can gain access to the wealth necessary to get a True Ress. I understand the option of True Ress would not be available to a level 6 Aristocrat or some level 10 Expert. I'm looking in the high teens since this is when True Ress for NPCs "may" become a viable option.

#1: Trap the Soul. If I try to limit access to diamonds, I'm sure I would have to limit access to the gem needed to trap a soul (1000 gp/HD). The assassin in question may need to go on a quest to find a gem valuable enough to trap the soul of a high level NPC target. Arguably, it will be harder to find 1 gem with the appropriate value for trap the soul vs. several diamonds that are worth all together 25,000 gp for a True Ress.

#2: Thinaun Daggers: Where's the source for this item.

So far, I think the Animate Dead idea is the best option though it opens up the can of worms of how the heck do you hide the body if you got a wealthy NPC's family/church/state looking for him with magic.

Thinking about the material costs, I guess it could be viable to kill the target, let the target waste their wealth to do a true ress and kill the target again leaving a message its a waste of time, effort and money to ressurect the target giving whoever is doing the ressurecting the idea that money can be best spent elsewhere...

I also vaguely recall there was a metamagic feat that if the target dies from the metamagicked spell, the target had a harder time being raised/ressed/true ressed. Anyone can confirm my recollection on that metamagic feat? Otherwise, maybe I'll have to invent some kind of magical spell or feat that can actually prevent the use of true ress available to the Assassin Prestige Class.
Iver Gearsham
09-05-06, 04:07 PM Flesh to Stone their a "Rock" not dead but not alive then Stone shape his heart out so if he is rescued he dies, Or just Stone shape him in to a block and make him part of some random building.
Artector
09-05-06, 04:13 PM So far, I think the Animate Dead idea is the best option though it opens up the can of worms of how the heck do you hide the body if you got a wealthy NPC's family/church/state looking for him with magic.

Put him in a portable hole.

And a non-mechanical way to do it would be to have the church with the cleric deny the resurrection, make it political, ethical, or another reason. Another possibility would be to have the dead noble's assests seized by another noble or family memember.

Mechanically...... hmmm
Steal from Eberron and make the plane of death become removed, and connected. Most of the time its hard to resurrect, the times its connected.... there's a chance a spirit will 'piggyback'.
wonlee76
09-05-06, 04:28 PM I think I came up with a solution to the true ress/ress for high level play based on some of the ideas you folks came up with.

Step 1: Kill Target
Step 2: Animate it with scroll or whatever.
Step 3: Shove corpse into Bag of Holding (smallest one should be of sufficient size for medium or small sized corpse).
Step 4: Puncture the Bage of Holding.

If I'm reading the BoH description properly, the contents of the Bag are lost forever. Not necessarily destroyed so with the undead body floating out in some nondimensional space inaccessible to anyone, True Ress would be useless.

Total Costs to Assassin:
2500 gp for BoH.
1050 gp for Scroll of Animate Undead

A lot cheaper then Trap the Soul and in a high magic game, BoH and Scrolls should be easily attainable or crafted by the PC himself.
mvincent
09-05-06, 04:49 PM how the heck do you hide the body if you got a wealthy NPC's family/church/state looking for him with magic.Assuming they are using Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm), not much can be done. I believe this would find the animated body even if it was disposed of via the punctured Bage of Holding trick. Some counter-measures include:
1) casting mind-blank on the body (interestingly, this appears to work on a skeleton). Or
2) Use divination to determine when Discern Location is going to be cast, then use Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) on the body at that specific time.

But you are better off using a different method. Another option is to use the intimidate skill on the target beforehand to ensure they do not want to return to life (which will prevent any efforts to ressurect). You'd have to be very creative with the threats though.
wonlee76
09-05-06, 05:24 PM Assuming they are using Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm), not much can be done.

Well, my line of thought is if you choose to use Animate dead to prevent ressurection, the only way for someone to ressurect the dead person is to destroy the zombie/skeleton ro whatever it is. In order to do that you first need to find the undead creature and then get to it to destroy it.

Discern location will find the undead creature lost due to a punctured bag of holding but what spell could bring that zombie out so that you can destroy it and then ress/true ress the person. I guess Wish or Miracle might do it but I'm not sure if I would allow either spell to do that. Guess its a judgment call.

I wish there were more options for permanent death available within the rules.
PhaedrusXY
09-05-06, 05:32 PM Petrify them, or animate them as an undead. Then stick them in a dead magic zone. I think Dead Magic Zones would be the D&D equivalent of the desert around Vegas. :D
SageBahamut
09-05-06, 10:46 PM So far I like the "Flesh to Stone then turn him into a block and build something out of him" idea. Especially if you Mind Blank or Nondetection him first.
Rapidexit
09-05-06, 11:40 PM You could always cast Necrotic Termination on them (out of libris mortis). If they fail a save from that they are history... bubye never see you again kinda gone.
IceFractal
09-05-06, 11:50 PM It's expensive, but ... after killing them, Raise them, and then kill them again painfully. Do this until they stop being willing to come back, disguising yourself as different alignments through Misdirection. And if they keep being willing to come back, you'll eventually drain all their levels and Con, making them unraisable.
runestar
09-06-06, 01:05 AM There's this leshay assassin in Union from the ELH who uses some sort of powder to destroy the remains of the corpse, then sweeps the remains into her cloak, which is really some sort of portal to another dimension...:P
SamiPeikko
09-06-06, 08:27 AM Take the animated remains into another plane. Make it a plane that can't be reached except by a spesific portal, and that prevents all magical detection into the plane.
This way those people will stay dead, until the heroic PC:s find and defeat the assassin. Then, if they are clever, they may or may not be able to find this plane and save those people.
Dhaise
09-06-06, 08:37 AM Hire the Garrote from the epic level handbook,throw them into a small room with a demi lich, or throw around a sphere of annilation if they arent likely to get the 'direct intervention of a deity'.

IMC, the surest way to defeat true ress (to date) has involved one of the pc's posing as the murdered being in public and gradually becoming a recluse under that cover identity. I _think_ he is trying to get the cult of zealots to follow a new patron so they won't investigate (and eventually ressurect) the High priest they killed.
kliate
09-06-06, 08:37 AM #2: Thinaun Daggers: Where's the source for this item.

Complete Warrior, Page one hundred-something, under special materials. (Having looked it up, each dagger would cost just over 10,000gp)
solbergb
09-06-06, 02:30 PM Aside from all of the above, the simplist solution is to not actually kill your enemy.

Then True Rez does nothing.

Feeblemind him and lock him in a room, maybe with mordenkeinen's sanctum to avoid anyone scrying him and rescuing him. If you're really buff, trap the soul or that 9th level imprisonment spell...well those spells exist for a reason.

In earlier editions of D&D, putting him in a room with ghosts would rapidly age him to where he couldn't be rezzed, or you could just cast Haste on him a couple hundred times :) I'm not aware of any age-increasing magic in the current edition though.
PhaedrusXY
09-06-06, 02:38 PM In earlier editions of D&D, putting him in a room with ghosts would rapidly age him to where he couldn't be rezzed, or you could just cast Haste on him a couple hundred times :) I'm not aware of any age-increasing magic in the current edition though.There are some monsters in the Epic Level Handbook that age you, I think. And some others that do permanent hit point damage...
Richmud
09-06-06, 05:56 PM Its worth mentioning that many people choose to not come back. They are simply much happier in the realm of their god then they ever were among the living
Magus Gar Kan
09-06-06, 07:56 PM Follow the soul to the plane it ends up in and destroy the petitioner the soul has become.

Actually once a soul becomes a petitioner it prevents the soul from being ressurected. IE: It will not return to it's body as it has settled into its afterlife.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wonlee76 09-05-06, 01:23 PM	Hey folks, looking for some advice on how to counter True Ressurection as I'm thinking of ways to assassinate people in the world. Generally, I run a high magic world so in most major cities True Ressurection is available if you can pay the price but I was thinking in a world of politics, assassins and magic, how the hell does an assassin actually accomplish his goal. He assassinates a noble, gets rid of the remains, and yet True Ress can still raise the body (presuming the target has enough wealth to pay for the costs of course). Are there any tricks or tactics that players or DMs have come up with to counter True Ress? I'm not looking for houserules or anything. Just something that makes logical sense other then a DM saying "Because I said so."
Thiez 09-05-06, 01:37 PM	Trap the Soul?
wellofworlds 09-05-06, 01:41 PM	There "trap a soul" spell that sucks the soul into a gem, and then a it a takes a wish and Ressurection or True Ressurection w/o body to raise a guy. The only other way I can think of, is go to the plane that spirt of the person was sent to and destroy the spirit before it is raised. I would choose the first choice because going to the plane and entering a god domain to kill a servant is just plain foolish. Note there are swords that trap the soul of a individual, that might work.
tarkin 09-05-06, 01:42 PM	When I was playing back in 2nd edition, we had this DM that kept ressurecting people. We developed a motto (even had it carved into one of our weapons) Always take the Head. For 3.0+, you can translate that into "Take their soul"
ninja1 09-05-06, 01:54 PM	If you guys allow the Book of Vile Darkness, you can sacrifice the captured soul to your dark god, thus destroying it forever.
Milo HoBo 09-05-06, 02:00 PM	Unname from ToM. It can still be undone, but everything can with enough magic. Apply contact poision to the body so that the cleric who tries to raise the body will be poisioned. :devil:
DrMorganes 09-05-06, 02:12 PM	Meh. You're the DM, right? You're overlooking some basic world-building information that will handily prevent supurfulous use of various resurrection magic without resorting to a Trap the Soul-casting assassin. To wit: 25,000gp is a LOT of money. True, most nobles have an excess of cash, but the vast majority of an individual noble's fortune is tied up in non-cash assets: land, livestock, and the like. A good portion of what's left goes to upkeep of those assets and paying various staff. Few but the most powerful nobles or merchants can come up with 25,000gp in actual coin in short order - if at all! The material component for True Resurrection is 25,000gp of DIAMONDS. Not 25,000gp. Not 25,000gp of gems. DIAMONDS. Diamonds are hard enough to come by in modern times (more (http://www.maloofjewelry.com/education/history-of-diamonds.htm)). Unless you've been foolish enough to place a major religious capital smack dab on top of a rich vein of diamonds, coming up with 25,000gp of them is going to be a major undertaking - an adventure all of its own potentially costing as much (if not more) than the value of the diamonds themselves. Now take a look at the DMG's guildelines for how many NPCs of a given class and level there are in the world. Clerics able to cast True Resurrection are few and far between. Those that DO exist will not be readily available to the general population, and even nobility will have to "take a number" in most cases. Unless said noble is very influential and involved in a given faith, odds are you'll receive condolences for your loss, offers to pray for the soul of the departed, and an admonition to cling to <<insert diety's name here>> for solace from your grief. From a game standpoint, ALL resurrection magic shares the limitation of requiring the soul to be willing to return. By far, NPCs will be content with their afterlife. Let's not overlook the problem of Inevitables, either. Clerics who too often violate the natural order by performing resurrections willy-nilly will find themselves face-to-face with a very angry, very powerful Outsider intent on stopping such irresponsible activity. In short, resurrection is a plot item and a means to allow heros (that is, PCs) to return to the game after some ignoble death (like that goblin rogue landing a lucky Critical Hit or failing a Reflex save and impaling yourself on the excrement-covered spikes at the bottom of a kobold's trap). Making it readily available cheapens its impact and lessens the fear of death!
Thiez 09-05-06, 02:27 PM	"The material component for True Resurrection is 25,000gp of DIAMONDS. Not 25,000gp. Not 25,000gp of gems. DIAMONDS. Diamonds are hard enough to come by in modern times (more). Unless you've been foolish enough to place a major religious capital smack dab on top of a rich vein of diamonds, coming up with 25,000gp of them is going to be a major undertaking - an adventure all of its own potentially costing as much (if not more) than the value of the diamonds themselves." Eeerh, if it would cost 25,000 gp to get a single tiny diamond, then that diamond would be worth 25,000 gp, so I see no reason why it would cost much more than that to get that diamond.
Caliborn 09-05-06, 02:30 PM	Follow the soul to the plane it ends up in and destroy the petitioner the soul has become.
Joseph_Silver 09-05-06, 02:40 PM	Use Lesser Planar Binding to call a Barghest and have him eat the target's remains (effectively devouring the target's soul). Souls eaten by a barghest only have a 50% chance of being affected by True Resurrection. If the first True Ressurection fails, then the soul is lost forever.
kliate 09-05-06, 02:50 PM	I've had thoughts about this style of assassination. It would certainly be pricey, since you're trying to prevent even a 26,530gp spell from undoing your efforts. My solution is to give the Assassin Thinaun Daggers. Not A Thinaun Dagger, not A Few Thinaun Daggers, but a sizeable collection of them, numbered in the dozens. Naturally, the replacement cost of the dagger is added onto the expense of the contract. Hiring this particular Assassin is going to call for around 50,000gp a hit, I figure. Now, there are some added bonuses. The Assassin would keep the daggers very well protected, and they wouldn't exactly be "neatly labeled for PC reference". Rather, the daggers would have the sequential number of the victim engraved on the hilt, such that the PCs would have little to no idea who they might be calling back if they even manage to acquire the collection of weapons. This kind of character would probably be in the neighbourhood of a CR16+, with significantly more wealth than might be expected from an NPC of their level (when one counts the daggers, anyway).
Joseph_Silver 09-05-06, 02:51 PM	I have another idea. Kidnap the target, cast Mind Blank on him, and then cast Temporal Stasis on him. Sure, he's not dead, but noone will be able to find him using magic.
Thiez 09-05-06, 03:10 PM	Temperal stasis affects a creature, not the spells that affect the creature at that time. Mindblank would run out as usual.
IMarvinTPA 09-05-06, 03:30 PM	Cast Raise Dead on the body then hide it. It can't be raised until the undead created by it is destroyed. You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can't resurrect constructs or undead creatures. And that applies through the whole chain of spells. The soul powers the body until it is freed. IMarv
Milo HoBo 09-05-06, 03:30 PM	You could just continually cast mind blank on the target without the temporal stasis. Eventually they die of old age. Then they don't come back.
mvincent 09-05-06, 03:37 PM	1) Cast animate dead on the remains before sealing them up or hiding them (possibly on another plane). (doh. IMarvinTPA beat me to this one) 2) Age the person to death (possibly on another plane with an altered time rate, which could be created via the genesis spell) 3) Age the remains (again, on another plane with a drastically altered time rate) 4) Raise and slay the victim multiple times until he runs out of levels (and constitution even). Even if he is brought back, he'll just be a first level mook. 5) Coup de grace (automatic critical) with a "Nine Lives Stealer" (assuming your DM views this blade as similar to Stormbringer).
SageBahamut 09-05-06, 03:43 PM	That's what Nondetection and Imprisonment are for. If you're playing a very high-magic campaign, where things like True Resurrection are commonplace, it's not unheard of for such things to be cheaper than DMG standard. (For a real-world comparison, consider simple cotton. At one point cotton was so rare and expensive that... I believe it was Queen Elizabeth I ... owned exactly one cotton dress and never wore it because it was too valueable. Most simple clothes then were wool or other simple cloths. Now, who doesn't have at least one pair of cotton underwear? Thus do things become cheaper as they become readily available.) Also, resurrection-defeating D&D magic is rare and high-level because resurrection magic is rare and high-level. If "rare" isn't true in your game, then you need to reconsider. Maybe put in a couple of original spells meant to undo resurrections or manipulate them. (How creepy would it be to resurrect the wrong soul into your fighter's body?) Maybe one that makes it so the soul is bottled for a short time, so only a Resurrection caster of higher level can resurrect the victim.
wonlee76 09-05-06, 03:54 PM	Thanks for the ideas so far though I see a few flaws in a few ideas. Keep them coming. As for the original post, it was a question in the context of a high level campaign where the targets will be more powerful NPCs types who potentially can gain access to the wealth necessary to get a True Ress. I understand the option of True Ress would not be available to a level 6 Aristocrat or some level 10 Expert. I'm looking in the high teens since this is when True Ress for NPCs "may" become a viable option. #1: Trap the Soul. If I try to limit access to diamonds, I'm sure I would have to limit access to the gem needed to trap a soul (1000 gp/HD). The assassin in question may need to go on a quest to find a gem valuable enough to trap the soul of a high level NPC target. Arguably, it will be harder to find 1 gem with the appropriate value for trap the soul vs. several diamonds that are worth all together 25,000 gp for a True Ress. #2: Thinaun Daggers: Where's the source for this item. So far, I think the Animate Dead idea is the best option though it opens up the can of worms of how the heck do you hide the body if you got a wealthy NPC's family/church/state looking for him with magic. Thinking about the material costs, I guess it could be viable to kill the target, let the target waste their wealth to do a true ress and kill the target again leaving a message its a waste of time, effort and money to ressurect the target giving whoever is doing the ressurecting the idea that money can be best spent elsewhere... I also vaguely recall there was a metamagic feat that if the target dies from the metamagicked spell, the target had a harder time being raised/ressed/true ressed. Anyone can confirm my recollection on that metamagic feat? Otherwise, maybe I'll have to invent some kind of magical spell or feat that can actually prevent the use of true ress available to the Assassin Prestige Class.
Iver Gearsham 09-05-06, 04:07 PM	Flesh to Stone their a "Rock" not dead but not alive then Stone shape his heart out so if he is rescued he dies, Or just Stone shape him in to a block and make him part of some random building.
Artector 09-05-06, 04:13 PM	So far, I think the Animate Dead idea is the best option though it opens up the can of worms of how the heck do you hide the body if you got a wealthy NPC's family/church/state looking for him with magic. Put him in a portable hole. And a non-mechanical way to do it would be to have the church with the cleric deny the resurrection, make it political, ethical, or another reason. Another possibility would be to have the dead noble's assests seized by another noble or family memember. Mechanically...... hmmm Steal from Eberron and make the plane of death become removed, and connected. Most of the time its hard to resurrect, the times its connected.... there's a chance a spirit will 'piggyback'.
wonlee76 09-05-06, 04:28 PM	I think I came up with a solution to the true ress/ress for high level play based on some of the ideas you folks came up with. Step 1: Kill Target Step 2: Animate it with scroll or whatever. Step 3: Shove corpse into Bag of Holding (smallest one should be of sufficient size for medium or small sized corpse). Step 4: Puncture the Bage of Holding. If I'm reading the BoH description properly, the contents of the Bag are lost forever. Not necessarily destroyed so with the undead body floating out in some nondimensional space inaccessible to anyone, True Ress would be useless. Total Costs to Assassin: 2500 gp for BoH. 1050 gp for Scroll of Animate Undead A lot cheaper then Trap the Soul and in a high magic game, BoH and Scrolls should be easily attainable or crafted by the PC himself.
mvincent 09-05-06, 04:49 PM	how the heck do you hide the body if you got a wealthy NPC's family/church/state looking for him with magic.Assuming they are using Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm), not much can be done. I believe this would find the animated body even if it was disposed of via the punctured Bage of Holding trick. Some counter-measures include: 1) casting mind-blank on the body (interestingly, this appears to work on a skeleton). Or 2) Use divination to determine when Discern Location is going to be cast, then use Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) on the body at that specific time. But you are better off using a different method. Another option is to use the intimidate skill on the target beforehand to ensure they do not want to return to life (which will prevent any efforts to ressurect). You'd have to be very creative with the threats though.
wonlee76 09-05-06, 05:24 PM	Assuming they are using Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm), not much can be done. Well, my line of thought is if you choose to use Animate dead to prevent ressurection, the only way for someone to ressurect the dead person is to destroy the zombie/skeleton ro whatever it is. In order to do that you first need to find the undead creature and then get to it to destroy it. Discern location will find the undead creature lost due to a punctured bag of holding but what spell could bring that zombie out so that you can destroy it and then ress/true ress the person. I guess Wish or Miracle might do it but I'm not sure if I would allow either spell to do that. Guess its a judgment call. I wish there were more options for permanent death available within the rules.
PhaedrusXY 09-05-06, 05:32 PM	Petrify them, or animate them as an undead. Then stick them in a dead magic zone. I think Dead Magic Zones would be the D&D equivalent of the desert around Vegas. :D
SageBahamut 09-05-06, 10:46 PM	So far I like the "Flesh to Stone then turn him into a block and build something out of him" idea. Especially if you Mind Blank or Nondetection him first.
Rapidexit 09-05-06, 11:40 PM	You could always cast Necrotic Termination on them (out of libris mortis). If they fail a save from that they are history... bubye never see you again kinda gone.
IceFractal 09-05-06, 11:50 PM	It's expensive, but ... after killing them, Raise them, and then kill them again painfully. Do this until they stop being willing to come back, disguising yourself as different alignments through Misdirection. And if they keep being willing to come back, you'll eventually drain all their levels and Con, making them unraisable.
runestar 09-06-06, 01:05 AM	There's this leshay assassin in Union from the ELH who uses some sort of powder to destroy the remains of the corpse, then sweeps the remains into her cloak, which is really some sort of portal to another dimension...:P
SamiPeikko 09-06-06, 08:27 AM	Take the animated remains into another plane. Make it a plane that can't be reached except by a spesific portal, and that prevents all magical detection into the plane. This way those people will stay dead, until the heroic PC:s find and defeat the assassin. Then, if they are clever, they may or may not be able to find this plane and save those people.
Dhaise 09-06-06, 08:37 AM	Hire the Garrote from the epic level handbook,throw them into a small room with a demi lich, or throw around a sphere of annilation if they arent likely to get the 'direct intervention of a deity'. IMC, the surest way to defeat true ress (to date) has involved one of the pc's posing as the murdered being in public and gradually becoming a recluse under that cover identity. I _think_ he is trying to get the cult of zealots to follow a new patron so they won't investigate (and eventually ressurect) the High priest they killed.
kliate 09-06-06, 08:37 AM	#2: Thinaun Daggers: Where's the source for this item. Complete Warrior, Page one hundred-something, under special materials. (Having looked it up, each dagger would cost just over 10,000gp)
solbergb 09-06-06, 02:30 PM	Aside from all of the above, the simplist solution is to not actually kill your enemy. Then True Rez does nothing. Feeblemind him and lock him in a room, maybe with mordenkeinen's sanctum to avoid anyone scrying him and rescuing him. If you're really buff, trap the soul or that 9th level imprisonment spell...well those spells exist for a reason. In earlier editions of D&D, putting him in a room with ghosts would rapidly age him to where he couldn't be rezzed, or you could just cast Haste on him a couple hundred times :) I'm not aware of any age-increasing magic in the current edition though.
PhaedrusXY 09-06-06, 02:38 PM	In earlier editions of D&D, putting him in a room with ghosts would rapidly age him to where he couldn't be rezzed, or you could just cast Haste on him a couple hundred times :) I'm not aware of any age-increasing magic in the current edition though.There are some monsters in the Epic Level Handbook that age you, I think. And some others that do permanent hit point damage...
Richmud 09-06-06, 05:56 PM	Its worth mentioning that many people choose to not come back. They are simply much happier in the realm of their god then they ever were among the living
Magus Gar Kan 09-06-06, 07:56 PM	Follow the soul to the plane it ends up in and destroy the petitioner the soul has become. Actually once a soul becomes a petitioner it prevents the soul from being ressurected. IE: It will not return to it's body as it has settled into its afterlife.