Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ReverendCow 09-24-05, 11:57 PM	Mage A starts casting Fireball, Mage B (using a readied action) attempts to counterspell, Mage C (Mage A's Friend, also using a readied action) attempts to counterspell the counterspell. Will this work?
Xanthia 09-25-05, 12:19 AM	I believe so; our group rarely has the need to counterspell, so I can't really say it's come up often.
Jaxgaret 09-25-05, 12:50 AM	yes. counterspells are merely readied spell actions, and thus are themselves counterspellable.
Branto 09-25-05, 01:02 AM	Hmmm, well.. Dispel by nature is a force designed to disrupt the workings of magic.. can you disrupt a disruption? Sometimes, similar forces CAN cancel each other out.. like.. well, I was going to say a fireball, but now that I think of it.. fire wouldn't really be stopped by fire unless it had more of a physical mass.. Hmmm.. on this issue, I think I would rule it as a "No", but I think the rules might say "Yes"... and they're usually a more credible source than I am. :P
runestar 09-25-05, 02:28 AM	You can. Counterspelling is simply casting a variation of the spell you are trying to counter, or casting dispel magic. Since MageB has to cast a variation of fireball to counter A, C can cast another fireball or dispel magic to counter the fireball B is casting.
KmartKommando 09-25-05, 07:51 AM	ready a quickened truestrike and a disintegrate, fire at caster when he starts casting. watch caster squirm at the concentration DC. :D
green_yawgmoth 09-25-05, 05:10 PM	ready a quickened truestrike and a disintegrate, fire at caster when he starts casting. watch caster squirm at the concentration DC. :D I don't think you can cast 2 spells with a readied action, but you could cast QTS and use the +20 on your readied disintegrate. For real meanness, ready a Split Rayed Disintegrate; an 8th level spell, but 2 disintregrates are better than one! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Josheva 09-25-05, 11:30 PM	Counterspells are only modified version of the spell itself. A counterspell is, in essence, the negative version of the spell being cast. When the spell and the counterspell are cast, the two cancel each other out. ie. Mage A casts a fireball that he memorized as a level 3 spell. Mage B makes a spellcraft check of DC 18 (15+spell level) and identifies the spell being cast as fireball. He then casts, as a readied action, fireball which he memmed as a level 3 spell, but modifies it to be the negative version of itself. This new, modified version of the fireball counters the one cast by Mage A. The end result is nothing happening but arcane gestures and magical fizzles. So the problem now posing itself is what happens when Mage C casts, as a readied action, the spell fireball in response to the origional counterspellers modified fireball. Does Mage A's fireball go through or does Mage C's? The way I would solve this would be to compare the caster levels of all the mages involved. Whoever has the highest caster level would recieve the advantage in the situation. ie. Mage C, in response to Mage B's action casts an unmodified fireball. We must now compare caster levels in order to determine what happens. To make life easy I will list the mages involved in the order of caster levels where left is the highest and right is the lowest. 1) If Mage A > Mage B > Mage C then Mage A's fireball would be the one uneffected by the counterspell. 2) If Mage C > Mage A > Mage B then Mage A's fireball would be countered, and Mage C's Fireball would go through. Mage C could, of course, decide to use his fireball to counter Mage B's counterspell, but this would usually be unadvisable since his fireball is more powerful than Mage A's, so he would want his fireball to be the one uneffected. Generally, Mage C would only want to counter Mage B's counterspell in this case if Mage A's fireball was metamagically enhanced. 3) If Mage B > Mage A > Mage C then Mage C's fireball would be cast, while Mage A's fireball would be countered. Mage B could, alternatively choose to counterspell Mage C's spell. I hope this is simplified enough for the boards. Would be easier to explain in person. Happy posting. EDIT: Just to respond to an above post you cannot actually cast a quickened spell along with another spell as a readied action. pg.160 PHB Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action.
runestar 09-25-05, 11:38 PM	Caster lv checks are not applicable when you are using the exact spell to counter another mage's spell, only when dispel magic is used do you make a caster lv check. Thus, a lv1 mage could counter a magic missile cast by elminster by casting magic missile himself. MageC counters MageB's attempt to counter MageA's fireball. What's so hard to understand? Although I would just have MageC cast a fireball of his own at MageB.
Josheva 09-25-05, 11:45 PM	To respond to Runestar above, I know and agree that caster levels are not applicable when casting and counterspelling spells. However, since there are no written rules about counterspelling counterspells, I believe that the rules I have written above will settle the conflict efficiently and effectively. BTW a level 1 wizard better damn well hope he never tries to counter any spell cast by the Big E. Makin needless enemies =P
runestar 09-25-05, 11:56 PM	Okay, I had always thought the rules for counterspelling counterspells to be merely an extrapolation of the rules for counterspelling a spell, thus no additional rules were necessary. The gist here is that when MageB is modifying his fireball to counter MageA's fireball, he is in effect still casting a fireball spell, which is subject to countering as well. ;)
Josheva 09-26-05, 12:12 AM	At first that is what i thought of, except then I realized the Mage B is letting of a negative spell at the same time Mage A and Mage C are letting out positive spells. Since Mage B isn't specifically targetting Mage A's spell (just letting negative spell go in general area) there is no real way to decide which spell is countered. thats why I created the rules above. Bah, one day I'll give up trying to make magic logical :rolleyes:
ClementWillowbreaker 09-26-05, 11:44 AM	Or you could just have the third mage's readied action interrupt the second mage's action, like you should by the RAW. If the third's succeeds, the second's counterspell was never cast, and the first mage's spell goes off as normal. Don't bring magic or logic into magic. Its just rules, follow them.
SureFoot 09-26-05, 02:46 PM	No, you can't counterspell a counterspell. From the SRD (emphasis added): "It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane. How Counterspells Work: To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.) If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things." The pieces I bolded specify a spell you're countering. Nowhere in any of the rules does it indicate you can counter a counter. The counterspell isn't a spell, so it can't be the target of a counterspell. In other words, the opponent you're targetting never casts a spell and therefore does not trigger your readied action.
glennhefley 09-26-05, 08:19 PM	Hmmm, well.. Dispel by nature is a force designed to disrupt the workings of magic.. can you disrupt a disruption? Of course you can, same way Nitro puts out fires and sound wave silence sound waves.
runestar 09-26-05, 10:08 PM	It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell Surefoot, reread the 1st line of your quote again. You just answered your own question. The fact remains that counterspelling involves casting a spell of your own, which is in turn, subject to counterspelling by another mage. ;)
sparkster4242 09-27-05, 01:25 AM	it depends on whether counterspelling uses the 'cast a spell' action, or its own 'counter a spell' action - each has its pros and cons, and im not sure if there is a firm rule either way. consider this: if countering is its own action, then it is not the 'cast a spell' action, so countering cannot be countered (note the bolded tries to cast a spell in surefoot's post). on the other hand, if countering uses the 'cast a spell' action, then spells with long casting times cannot be countered (by the same spell), because you cannot ready a full-round or 1-round action. at one time, the FAQ has expressed both viewpoints :( personally, i prefer countering a spell to be its own action - you wont know if the spell you are going to counter can be countered as a standard action until long _after_ you have readied it. here's my take on the situation: mage C's fireball goes off, forcing mage B to make a Concentration check (based on the damage he takes from the Fireball) - if he succeeds, then he counters mage A's Fireball; if he fails his Concentration check, then he fails to counter mage A's spell, and thus gets hit with _another_ Fireball.
The Simbul 09-27-05, 01:59 AM	Counterspelling was a poorly thought-out and underpowered concept tossed into the rules as part of the Magic the Gatheringization of D&D. Why bother with a counterspell with a readied Orb of Fire will do the trick. I dont know too many non-epic spellcasters who can make a DC 55+ concentration check to save the spell they are casting when using non-custom feats and items, and too top it off they need to make a fort save or be dazed for the next round too....