Counterspell vs. Invocations [Archive] - Wizards Community

Counterspell vs. Invocations [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ardh05
11-29-06, 11:08 PM I was looking at the Dragonfire Adept class... and I started wondering how that works with counterspelling. A freind who likes to use casters said that it could be like normal counterspelling (DC15+equivanent spell level), but I don't think he was sure, either.
What do you guys say about that?
Weirgreif
11-30-06, 12:53 AM Quoth The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm): "Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled."
So no wizard can throw out his Fog Cloud spell to cancel your Breath Of The Night, nor can a drow use its innate Darkness to counter yours or the wizard's.

You may now start the argument about the Dispel Magic invocation.
ardh05
11-30-06, 01:22 AM Ok... My friend thought that it might allow counter-spelling because it provokes AoO and has ASF... He'll probably wind up HRing that you can CS it... as for the dispel magic invocation... which one, Voracious or Devour?:P or were you thinking both?
runestar
11-30-06, 01:31 AM You can however, ready an action to dispel the invocation's effect as he activates it(assuming it has a duration longer than instantaneous) using dispel magic.:P
Weirgreif
11-30-06, 02:49 PM ardh05, your friend was wrong, and should look at the explanatory tables! Or some such rot. :) If counterspelling is a big part of your game, I'd personally let it go because I've never been involved in a D&D game where the counterspell rules were important. It would give me Gamer XP.

The Dispel Magic argument is about whether you can use a spell-like ability that lets you cast Dispel Magic in the spell's countering mode. I read the SLA section as I described above, not as a blanket statement that breaks unexpected things.

I'm away-from-books at the moment, so I can't argue with evidence, but I mean the lower-level invocation that lets you use Dispel Magic in any of its three ways, not the higher-level one that gives you a "targeted Dispel Magic with a touch", which is simply dumb. I call it Dispelling Hug. *nod*
Also, Complete Mage has a new invocation called Caster's Lament. It mentions counterspelling directly in the entry, and muddies the whole argument.

You can however, ready an action to dispel the invocation's effect as he activates it(assuming it has a duration longer than instantaneous) using dispel magic.
I agree with this. Probably not as useful as 'ready to counterspell' would be, though.

it could be like normal counterspelling (DC15+equivanent spell level)
That's the spellcraft check to make sure you know what the opposing spell is. If you fail that check, you don't know what spell the foe is casting, and therefore can't throw a correct counterspell at it. If you succeed, and have the same spell (or a Light for Darkness, etc.), the counterspell automatically succeeds when you use it. Dispel Magic works against any spell, so you don't need to make the spellcraft check. Dispel Magic is the only one that needs a dispel check.
That's the way I understand it. The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm) are not written cleanly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ardh05 11-29-06, 11:08 PM	I was looking at the Dragonfire Adept class... and I started wondering how that works with counterspelling. A freind who likes to use casters said that it could be like normal counterspelling (DC15+equivanent spell level), but I don't think he was sure, either. What do you guys say about that?
Weirgreif 11-30-06, 12:53 AM	Quoth The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm): "Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled." So no wizard can throw out his Fog Cloud spell to cancel your Breath Of The Night, nor can a drow use its innate Darkness to counter yours or the wizard's. You may now start the argument about the Dispel Magic invocation.
ardh05 11-30-06, 01:22 AM	Ok... My friend thought that it might allow counter-spelling because it provokes AoO and has ASF... He'll probably wind up HRing that you can CS it... as for the dispel magic invocation... which one, Voracious or Devour?:P or were you thinking both?
runestar 11-30-06, 01:31 AM	You can however, ready an action to dispel the invocation's effect as he activates it(assuming it has a duration longer than instantaneous) using dispel magic.:P
Weirgreif 11-30-06, 02:49 PM	ardh05, your friend was wrong, and should look at the explanatory tables! Or some such rot. :) If counterspelling is a big part of your game, I'd personally let it go because I've never been involved in a D&D game where the counterspell rules were important. It would give me Gamer XP. The Dispel Magic argument is about whether you can use a spell-like ability that lets you cast Dispel Magic in the spell's countering mode. I read the SLA section as I described above, not as a blanket statement that breaks unexpected things. I'm away-from-books at the moment, so I can't argue with evidence, but I mean the lower-level invocation that lets you use Dispel Magic in any of its three ways, not the higher-level one that gives you a "targeted Dispel Magic with a touch", which is simply dumb. I call it Dispelling Hug. nod Also, Complete Mage has a new invocation called Caster's Lament. It mentions counterspelling directly in the entry, and muddies the whole argument. You can however, ready an action to dispel the invocation's effect as he activates it(assuming it has a duration longer than instantaneous) using dispel magic. I agree with this. Probably not as useful as 'ready to counterspell' would be, though. it could be like normal counterspelling (DC15+equivanent spell level) That's the spellcraft check to make sure you know what the opposing spell is. If you fail that check, you don't know what spell the foe is casting, and therefore can't throw a correct counterspell at it. If you succeed, and have the same spell (or a Light for Darkness, etc.), the counterspell automatically succeeds when you use it. Dispel Magic works against any spell, so you don't need to make the spellcraft check. Dispel Magic is the only one that needs a dispel check. That's the way I understand it. The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm) are not written cleanly.