Counterspelling a Touch Spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Counterspelling a Touch Spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tark
01-04-05, 05:02 PM Hi All,

Can Touch range spells be counterspelled?

From Counterspells in the SRD
"If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results."

I tend to think "yes", as long as the counterspelling wizard can touch the target of the spell.

If so, would he need to roll a melee touch?
What if the counterspelling wizard has a Spectral Hand active?

The issue came up in my last game. The PC wizard was fighting an Imp. The wizard readied to counterspell. The Imp tried to use its spell-like ability of invisibility. The PC wizard was 30 feet from the Imp, but he had Invisibility memorized and had a Spectral Hand active.

I allowed him to counterspell, but required that he land a melee touch with the spectral hand first.

Was my ruling correct?
TheRulerofTheUniverse
01-04-05, 05:23 PM I was under the impression that you could counterspell any sort of spell, even if it had a target of "personal", such as Spell Turning, assuming the counterspelling spellcaster had the same spell or Dispel Magic memorised or possessed the Improved Counterspelling feat.

I was not aware that you were allowed to counterspell Spell-Like Abilities, however.
tark
01-04-05, 05:29 PM ...you're exactly right.

From the SRD (TypesSubtypesAbilities)
"Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates would be subject to spell resistance.
A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled."

I would have sworn that you could counterspell spell-like abilities.

Thanks for your help. :)

In my example, what if the PC Wizard had been attempting to counterspell a rival wizard casting Invisibility? Since he has to be "in range" of the target, would he be required to touch the rival wizard?
cwslyclgh
01-04-05, 05:33 PM From Counterspells in the SRD
"If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results."

I tend to think "yes", as long as the counterspelling wizard can touch the target of the spell.correct, in order to counter spell a touch range spell the rules would indicate that you would need to be with in touch range, or else use a dispel magic to counter spell it.

However...

The wizard readied to counterspell. The Imp tried to use its spell-like ability of invisibility. Spell-like abilities can not be used to counter spell, nor can they be counter-spelled.

From the SRD:

Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates would be subject to spell resistance.
A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

hope that helps :)

I was under the impression that you could counterspell any sort of spell, even if it had a target of "personal", such as Spell TurningI believe that with in range clause refers to the spell you are using to counter spell, so a personal spell such as Spell Turning could still be counter-spelled via Dispel Magic.
TheRulerofTheUniverse
01-04-05, 05:38 PM I thought that "in range" simply meant that the counterspeller had to be able to see the spellcaster and be aware that they were casting a spell.
cwslyclgh
01-04-05, 05:44 PM well, that isnlt how I read it... but I will not deny that there is enough ambigious wordings in the PHB to mean that you could well be right :)
TheRulerofTheUniverse
01-05-05, 09:08 AM I was hoping that I'd just missed something in the rules...how do we find out which is the correct way?
GRAOUH !!!
01-05-05, 09:58 AM Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
But I have read in "rules of the game" (spell-like abilities, I think) that dispel magic is an exception because there's no need to identify the spell.
cwslyclgh
01-05-05, 02:55 PM I was hoping that I'd just missed something in the rules...how do we find out which is the correct way?

I can see a couple possible ways...

you could send an email to Sage Advice, and see if Andy Collins will print the asnwer in Dragon magazine (which would then make its way into the FAQ).

or

you could send 3 or more emails to customer service, and hope you got at least two answers that were the same, and use that ruling.

hope that helps :)
tark
01-05-05, 03:18 PM What's the email address for Customer Service?
cwslyclgh
01-05-05, 03:23 PM custserv@wizards.com

but if you go that route I was serious about sending at lezst 3 differnt emails... the answer you get will depend heavily on who is answering the question and how they feel that the time... cust serv guys are not game designers or even specialy trained in the rules... they are simply people who play a lot of D&D and are suppossed to know the rules well... who get payed to answer other peoples questions... questions that many of the people here on the boards are quite capable of answering (sometimes more capable infact given Cust Servs track record).
Vharuck
01-05-05, 05:47 PM I say that you'd need to use the countering spell's range for the line that demands that the counterer be within the spell's range. If that were the same touch spell, a dispel magic, or maybe even a same-school spell with improved counterspell, the spell's range is what matters.
Father Dale
01-06-05, 10:12 AM I think if you use the Improved Counterspelling feat you might be able to counterspell a touch range spell from a distance.

i.e. You are a good wizard with the Improved Counterspell feat. You ready an action to counterspell against the evil wizard. The wizard begins casting a spell. You correctly identify the spell as False Life, which has a range of "personal" and is a 2nd level Necromancy spell.

You actually have a False Life prepared, but you are not within range to counter it with False Life (can't be within "personal" range of another.) However, you use your Improved Counterspell feat to counterspell the evil wizard's False Life with Ray of Exhaustion, which is a 3rd level Necromancy Spell. You are 25 ft from the evil wizard, and thus in the range of the Ray of Exhaustion spell. Thus, you are able to counterspell the False Life with the Ray of Exhaustion.

Likewise, a dispell magic could be used to counterspell in this way, so long as the target of the counterspell is within range of the dispell magic.

This should work because it appears that the counterspelling range depends upon the counterspeller and the spell being used to counter the spell rather then on the initial spellcaster and the spell he is casting. If it were otherwise, then a 2nd level wizard casting Ray of Enfeeblement (close range, thus 30 ft) could not have his spell countered by a 20th level wizard who was more than 30 feet away, even though the 20th level wizard has Ray of Enfeeblement prepared and has a range of 75 ft on his spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tark 01-04-05, 05:02 PM	Hi All, Can Touch range spells be counterspelled? From Counterspells in the SRD "If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results." I tend to think "yes", as long as the counterspelling wizard can touch the target of the spell. If so, would he need to roll a melee touch? What if the counterspelling wizard has a Spectral Hand active? The issue came up in my last game. The PC wizard was fighting an Imp. The wizard readied to counterspell. The Imp tried to use its spell-like ability of invisibility. The PC wizard was 30 feet from the Imp, but he had Invisibility memorized and had a Spectral Hand active. I allowed him to counterspell, but required that he land a melee touch with the spectral hand first. Was my ruling correct?
TheRulerofTheUniverse 01-04-05, 05:23 PM	I was under the impression that you could counterspell any sort of spell, even if it had a target of "personal", such as Spell Turning, assuming the counterspelling spellcaster had the same spell or Dispel Magic memorised or possessed the Improved Counterspelling feat. I was not aware that you were allowed to counterspell Spell-Like Abilities, however.
tark 01-04-05, 05:29 PM	...you're exactly right. From the SRD (TypesSubtypesAbilities) "Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates would be subject to spell resistance. A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled." I would have sworn that you could counterspell spell-like abilities. Thanks for your help. :) In my example, what if the PC Wizard had been attempting to counterspell a rival wizard casting Invisibility? Since he has to be "in range" of the target, would he be required to touch the rival wizard?
cwslyclgh 01-04-05, 05:33 PM	From Counterspells in the SRD "If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results." I tend to think "yes", as long as the counterspelling wizard can touch the target of the spell.correct, in order to counter spell a touch range spell the rules would indicate that you would need to be with in touch range, or else use a dispel magic to counter spell it. However... The wizard readied to counterspell. The Imp tried to use its spell-like ability of invisibility. Spell-like abilities can not be used to counter spell, nor can they be counter-spelled. From the SRD: Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates would be subject to spell resistance. A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. hope that helps :) I was under the impression that you could counterspell any sort of spell, even if it had a target of "personal", such as Spell TurningI believe that with in range clause refers to the spell you are using to counter spell, so a personal spell such as Spell Turning could still be counter-spelled via Dispel Magic.
TheRulerofTheUniverse 01-04-05, 05:38 PM	I thought that "in range" simply meant that the counterspeller had to be able to see the spellcaster and be aware that they were casting a spell.
cwslyclgh 01-04-05, 05:44 PM	well, that isnlt how I read it... but I will not deny that there is enough ambigious wordings in the PHB to mean that you could well be right :)
TheRulerofTheUniverse 01-05-05, 09:08 AM	I was hoping that I'd just missed something in the rules...how do we find out which is the correct way?
GRAOUH !!! 01-05-05, 09:58 AM	Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. But I have read in "rules of the game" (spell-like abilities, I think) that dispel magic is an exception because there's no need to identify the spell.
cwslyclgh 01-05-05, 02:55 PM	I was hoping that I'd just missed something in the rules...how do we find out which is the correct way? I can see a couple possible ways... you could send an email to Sage Advice, and see if Andy Collins will print the asnwer in Dragon magazine (which would then make its way into the FAQ). or you could send 3 or more emails to customer service, and hope you got at least two answers that were the same, and use that ruling. hope that helps :)
tark 01-05-05, 03:18 PM	What's the email address for Customer Service?
cwslyclgh 01-05-05, 03:23 PM	custserv@wizards.com but if you go that route I was serious about sending at lezst 3 differnt emails... the answer you get will depend heavily on who is answering the question and how they feel that the time... cust serv guys are not game designers or even specialy trained in the rules... they are simply people who play a lot of D&D and are suppossed to know the rules well... who get payed to answer other peoples questions... questions that many of the people here on the boards are quite capable of answering (sometimes more capable infact given Cust Servs track record).
Vharuck 01-05-05, 05:47 PM	I say that you'd need to use the countering spell's range for the line that demands that the counterer be within the spell's range. If that were the same touch spell, a dispel magic, or maybe even a same-school spell with improved counterspell, the spell's range is what matters.
Father Dale 01-06-05, 10:12 AM	I think if you use the Improved Counterspelling feat you might be able to counterspell a touch range spell from a distance. i.e. You are a good wizard with the Improved Counterspell feat. You ready an action to counterspell against the evil wizard. The wizard begins casting a spell. You correctly identify the spell as False Life, which has a range of "personal" and is a 2nd level Necromancy spell. You actually have a False Life prepared, but you are not within range to counter it with False Life (can't be within "personal" range of another.) However, you use your Improved Counterspell feat to counterspell the evil wizard's False Life with Ray of Exhaustion, which is a 3rd level Necromancy Spell. You are 25 ft from the evil wizard, and thus in the range of the Ray of Exhaustion spell. Thus, you are able to counterspell the False Life with the Ray of Exhaustion. Likewise, a dispell magic could be used to counterspell in this way, so long as the target of the counterspell is within range of the dispell magic. This should work because it appears that the counterspelling range depends upon the counterspeller and the spell being used to counter the spell rather then on the initial spellcaster and the spell he is casting. If it were otherwise, then a 2nd level wizard casting Ray of Enfeeblement (close range, thus 30 ft) could not have his spell countered by a 20th level wizard who was more than 30 feet away, even though the 20th level wizard has Ray of Enfeeblement prepared and has a range of 75 ft on his spell.