Counterspelling magic items? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Counterspelling magic items? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Owain_Abjurer
12-05-06, 05:54 AM Hello everyone. I am pretty sure I already know the answer to this question, but it has come up in my gaming group as a matter of discussion. I cannot find any rule that comes right out and says specifically that this can or cannot be done, but the rules seem to infer it is not possible.

The question is:

Could a caster counterspell a spell trigger item?

For instance, can a wizard use Lightning Bolt and/or Dispel Magic to counterspell an enemy wizard who is making use of a Wand of Lightning Bolt.

Thank you in advance for any and all help on this matter.
Seeker95
12-05-06, 09:33 AM Wands, scrolls and staves are being used to "cast a spell". What comes out is mechanically "a spell". I would rule that you can indeed counterspell such attempts. However, other magic items are not being used to cast a spell, but rather are simply providing a magical effect (regardless of the spells that go into it). There may be some exceptions -- a necklace of fireballs, for example, appears to be used to release a fireball spell. I would allow counterspell to work in this case as well.
Owain_Abjurer
12-06-06, 01:17 PM Wands, scrolls and staves are being used to "cast a spell". What comes out is mechanically "a spell". I would rule that you can indeed counterspell such attempts. However, other magic items are not being used to cast a spell, but rather are simply providing a magical effect (regardless of the spells that go into it). There may be some exceptions -- a necklace of fireballs, for example, appears to be used to release a fireball spell. I would allow counterspell to work in this case as well.

Do you have any rules quotes or anything to support this idea? After all, allowing counterspelling simply because the effect "is mechanically a spell" runs counter to existing rules. Spell-like abilities are mechanically a spell, but they cannot be counterspelled.

I could understand a scroll (or other spell completion item) being counterspelled, since you are basically still casting the spell... but a spell trigger item you just point said item and speak the command word. You are not casting a spell, and it seems awfully similar to a spell-like ability to me.

Thank you for the comments, though, Seeker95. I will be repeating them to my gaming group when next we meet.

Any other opinions on the idea? Does anyone know of a specific rule covering this topic? Thanks!
Seeker95
12-06-06, 01:32 PM After all, allowing counterspelling simply because the effect "is mechanically a spell" runs counter to existing rules. Spell-like abilities are mechanically a spell, but they cannot be counterspelled.You have misquoted me.

I did not say "mechanically a spell".
I said "used to cast a spell".

Meaning, mechanically, wands, staves and scrolls *are* spells, rather than magic items with spell-like effects. To use them, the spell must be on your spell list. You must be a caster. You must be able to cast a spell.
jaelis
12-06-06, 02:18 PM I'd agree with Seeker in regard to spell completion items like scrolls, but not spell trigger items like staves and wands. I think in the spell trigger case, the item is really basically a holder for a spell that was already cast, and which you simply release when you trigger it.

The counterspelling rules say they work only when your opponent "casts a spell." Activating a spell trigger item doesn't really work much like casting a spell... you don't supply components, you don't provoke an AoO, and it doesn't use your caster level. On the other hand, spell completion items do seem a lot like casting a spell, and are even described that way:

All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on).

So that's my opinion. You can counterspell a scroll, but not a wand.
Red_Rabbit
12-06-06, 02:21 PM All you would have to do is prepare an action to counterspell a spell any magic item that releases a spell is considered a spell such as a lightning bolt from staff of the magi or fireball from necklace of fireballs. That's pretty easy to see.

The Rabbit
Chrono Nexus
12-06-06, 02:25 PM Would or would not a wand of dispel magic be one of the greatest items in the game?:ayyyy!:
Owain_Abjurer
12-06-06, 02:48 PM Seeker95: You actually said both comments in your original post. I merely quoted only the section that your idea seemed to hinge upon. I did not mean to misrepresent what you said.

Assuming it is possible to counterspell a spell trigger item... How would the rules for it work? After all, you must identify the spell being cast. In a Rules of the Game article it was suggested that a spell without components of any kind could not be counterspelled except with Dispel Magic - For the simple reason that there is nothing to use to identify the spell with.

Would this rule also apply to a spell trigger magic item, then? After all, the spell being "cast" does not have components.

For the record, I agree with Jaelis in that spell completion can be counterspelled, but not spell trigger. However, I would like to see where both ideas lead.

Oh, and Chrono Nexus - A wand of dispel magic is indeed an awesome magic item! :)

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far.
Lord_of_Lights
12-06-06, 02:49 PM Would or would not a wand of dispel magic be one of the greatest items in the game?:ayyyy!:

Yea... only (1d20 + 5 [minimum caster level for a 3rd level]) vs 11 + caster level

It will be useless at high level ( 14 and +)

A staff of dispel magic greater will be more interesting since you apply your full caster level when you cast with it. But at epic level you can take a feat to use your caster level with wand.

And for counter spelling, the source of the spell doesnt mather, a spell is a spell and conterspeller counter them. The caster may or may not be the wielder of the trigger item if you want. In that case it will be the one who made it.
Owain_Abjurer
12-06-06, 02:55 PM ... for counter spelling, the source of the spell doesnt mather, a spell is a spell and conterspelling counter them.

As mentioned earlier, the source of the spell does matter. A spell-like ability, while it is still "a spell", cannot be counterspelled. So really I suppose the argument boils down to more whether a spell trigger item's "spell" is more like a cast spell or a spell-like ability.
Seeker95
12-06-06, 09:01 PM In a Rules of the Game article it was suggested that a spell without components of any kind could not be counterspelled except with Dispel Magic - For the simple reason that there is nothing to use to identify the spell with.

Would this rule also apply to a spell trigger magic item, then?Yes. Without a means of identifying the type of spell being cast, you could only use dispel magic.

Of course, once your opponent fires off a [i]lightning bolt[/]i from that pesky wand, you know the type of spell being used. From that point forward, you could use dispel magic or lightning bolt.

All spell trigger items are spell completion, but not all spell completion items are spell trigger items. In other words, spell trigger items are completing a spell.
Fallenangel359
12-06-06, 10:50 PM best fricken item in the game... is a rod of absorbtion :)

just take 1 class that can cast spells... any spell...
runestar
12-06-06, 10:54 PM What about potions? Can you counterspell someone's attempt to quaff a potion?:P
Seeker95
12-06-06, 11:12 PM Can you counterspell someone's attempt to quaff a potion?Perhaps if there is a choke spell out there somewhere.
That would make for quite a gag.
Can anyone cough up such a dweomer?
:P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Owain_Abjurer 12-05-06, 05:54 AM	Hello everyone. I am pretty sure I already know the answer to this question, but it has come up in my gaming group as a matter of discussion. I cannot find any rule that comes right out and says specifically that this can or cannot be done, but the rules seem to infer it is not possible. The question is: Could a caster counterspell a spell trigger item? For instance, can a wizard use Lightning Bolt and/or Dispel Magic to counterspell an enemy wizard who is making use of a Wand of Lightning Bolt. Thank you in advance for any and all help on this matter.
Seeker95 12-05-06, 09:33 AM	Wands, scrolls and staves are being used to "cast a spell". What comes out is mechanically "a spell". I would rule that you can indeed counterspell such attempts. However, other magic items are not being used to cast a spell, but rather are simply providing a magical effect (regardless of the spells that go into it). There may be some exceptions -- a necklace of fireballs, for example, appears to be used to release a fireball spell. I would allow counterspell to work in this case as well.
Owain_Abjurer 12-06-06, 01:17 PM	Wands, scrolls and staves are being used to "cast a spell". What comes out is mechanically "a spell". I would rule that you can indeed counterspell such attempts. However, other magic items are not being used to cast a spell, but rather are simply providing a magical effect (regardless of the spells that go into it). There may be some exceptions -- a necklace of fireballs, for example, appears to be used to release a fireball spell. I would allow counterspell to work in this case as well. Do you have any rules quotes or anything to support this idea? After all, allowing counterspelling simply because the effect "is mechanically a spell" runs counter to existing rules. Spell-like abilities are mechanically a spell, but they cannot be counterspelled. I could understand a scroll (or other spell completion item) being counterspelled, since you are basically still casting the spell... but a spell trigger item you just point said item and speak the command word. You are not casting a spell, and it seems awfully similar to a spell-like ability to me. Thank you for the comments, though, Seeker95. I will be repeating them to my gaming group when next we meet. Any other opinions on the idea? Does anyone know of a specific rule covering this topic? Thanks!
Seeker95 12-06-06, 01:32 PM	After all, allowing counterspelling simply because the effect "is mechanically a spell" runs counter to existing rules. Spell-like abilities are mechanically a spell, but they cannot be counterspelled.You have misquoted me. I did not say "mechanically a spell". I said "used to cast a spell". Meaning, mechanically, wands, staves and scrolls are spells, rather than magic items with spell-like effects. To use them, the spell must be on your spell list. You must be a caster. You must be able to cast a spell.
jaelis 12-06-06, 02:18 PM	I'd agree with Seeker in regard to spell completion items like scrolls, but not spell trigger items like staves and wands. I think in the spell trigger case, the item is really basically a holder for a spell that was already cast, and which you simply release when you trigger it. The counterspelling rules say they work only when your opponent "casts a spell." Activating a spell trigger item doesn't really work much like casting a spell... you don't supply components, you don't provoke an AoO, and it doesn't use your caster level. On the other hand, spell completion items do seem a lot like casting a spell, and are even described that way: All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). So that's my opinion. You can counterspell a scroll, but not a wand.
Red_Rabbit 12-06-06, 02:21 PM	All you would have to do is prepare an action to counterspell a spell any magic item that releases a spell is considered a spell such as a lightning bolt from staff of the magi or fireball from necklace of fireballs. That's pretty easy to see. The Rabbit
Chrono Nexus 12-06-06, 02:25 PM	Would or would not a wand of dispel magic be one of the greatest items in the game?:ayyyy!:
Owain_Abjurer 12-06-06, 02:48 PM	Seeker95: You actually said both comments in your original post. I merely quoted only the section that your idea seemed to hinge upon. I did not mean to misrepresent what you said. Assuming it is possible to counterspell a spell trigger item... How would the rules for it work? After all, you must identify the spell being cast. In a Rules of the Game article it was suggested that a spell without components of any kind could not be counterspelled except with Dispel Magic - For the simple reason that there is nothing to use to identify the spell with. Would this rule also apply to a spell trigger magic item, then? After all, the spell being "cast" does not have components. For the record, I agree with Jaelis in that spell completion can be counterspelled, but not spell trigger. However, I would like to see where both ideas lead. Oh, and Chrono Nexus - A wand of dispel magic is indeed an awesome magic item! :) Thanks to everyone who has replied so far.
Lord_of_Lights 12-06-06, 02:49 PM	Would or would not a wand of dispel magic be one of the greatest items in the game?:ayyyy!: Yea... only (1d20 + 5 [minimum caster level for a 3rd level]) vs 11 + caster level It will be useless at high level ( 14 and +) A staff of dispel magic greater will be more interesting since you apply your full caster level when you cast with it. But at epic level you can take a feat to use your caster level with wand. And for counter spelling, the source of the spell doesnt mather, a spell is a spell and conterspeller counter them. The caster may or may not be the wielder of the trigger item if you want. In that case it will be the one who made it.
Owain_Abjurer 12-06-06, 02:55 PM	... for counter spelling, the source of the spell doesnt mather, a spell is a spell and conterspelling counter them. As mentioned earlier, the source of the spell does matter. A spell-like ability, while it is still "a spell", cannot be counterspelled. So really I suppose the argument boils down to more whether a spell trigger item's "spell" is more like a cast spell or a spell-like ability.
Seeker95 12-06-06, 09:01 PM	In a Rules of the Game article it was suggested that a spell without components of any kind could not be counterspelled except with Dispel Magic - For the simple reason that there is nothing to use to identify the spell with. Would this rule also apply to a spell trigger magic item, then?Yes. Without a means of identifying the type of spell being cast, you could only use dispel magic. Of course, once your opponent fires off a [i]lightning bolt[/]i from that pesky wand, you know the type of spell being used. From that point forward, you could use dispel magic or lightning bolt. All spell trigger items are spell completion, but not all spell completion items are spell trigger items. In other words, spell trigger items are completing a spell.
Fallenangel359 12-06-06, 10:50 PM	best fricken item in the game... is a rod of absorbtion :) just take 1 class that can cast spells... any spell...
runestar 12-06-06, 10:54 PM	What about potions? Can you counterspell someone's attempt to quaff a potion?:P
Seeker95 12-06-06, 11:12 PM	Can you counterspell someone's attempt to quaff a potion?Perhaps if there is a choke spell out there somewhere. That would make for quite a gag. Can anyone cough up such a dweomer? :P