Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dakkareth 10-14-04, 12:01 PM	One thought just occured to me: Limited Wish can imitate any sor/wis spell of 6th level and below. That would mean, you could use it to automatically counterspell any such spell, right? Of course the cost is high, but better that than suffer a cone of cold when down to your last few HP (for example) ...
kSquared 10-14-04, 12:03 PM	I'd certainly agree to that.
was_fired 10-14-04, 12:08 PM	I don't see why you couldn't use limited wish like this. Very creative.
tarkin 10-14-04, 01:53 PM	Yes you could do this. Note, if you are using the Limited Wish spell to counterspell/duplicate a spell with an xp cost higher than 300, you would have to pay the higher xp cost. No "discount" for using Limited Wish.
simen_88 10-14-04, 04:57 PM	I'd definately allow it, maybe even giving bonus xp (not the entire xp cost) for creativity the first time.
IMarvinTPA 10-14-04, 05:38 PM	One thought just occured to me: Limited Wish can imitate any sor/wis spell of 6th level and below. That would mean, you could use it to automatically counterspell any such spell, right? Of course the cost is high, but better that than suffer a cone of cold when down to your last few HP (for example) ... Miracle is better, no XP cost to simulate any no xp spells. But that's for the divine. (Miracle + (greater) Glyph of Warding, muhahaha) But that doesn't help my wizard... I'm planning on taking limited wish just for the "I need this spell now!" capability. IMarv
Dakkareth 10-14-04, 06:25 PM	But that doesn't help my wizard... I'm planning on taking limited wish just for the "I need this spell now!" capability. Indeed, it's by definition the most versatile spell there is (and I'm thinking, a 5th level version, lesser wish or something, would be a good idea, too). And, so it turns out now, it's even more useful than I had realized. :)
Varrik 10-15-04, 01:44 PM	"lesser wish" Couldn't you just use the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration series? Or can they not be used to counterspell a non-shadow spell, even as they reproduce other spells?
Heron_Marked_Blade 10-15-04, 01:48 PM	"lesser wish" Couldn't you just use the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration series? Or can they not be used to counterspell a non-shadow spell, even as they reproduce other spells? I wouldn't allow them to counterspell normal spells, since they are only a "quasi-real, illusory version" of the spell. The spell you're casting is Shadow Evocation/Conjuration, NOT the other spells, even though you're making the SE/C spell take the form of another spell.
Varrik 10-15-04, 04:57 PM	I wouldn't allow them to counterspell normal spells, since they are only a "quasi-real, illusory version" of the spell. The spell you're casting is Shadow Evocation/Conjuration, NOT the other spells, even though you're making the SE/C spell take the form of another spell. Technically, isn't this the same effect as a Wish or Limited Wish? Does a wish similate the spell in question, or are you casting the spell in question?You can say what like about it being a "wish" but the Shadow series also has the same level as the Wish series. (Not that I'm disagreeing with you, I just want to know how you justify it.)
kSquared 10-15-04, 05:57 PM	A wish, limited wish, or miracle exactly reproduces the spell in question; it's as though you had the spell prepared and on your spell list for an instant and then cast it. It's for that reason that I agreed that the limited wish spell could be used as a counterspell/ The shadow spells only partially reproduce a spell effect (that's why you take reduced damage if you disbelieve). I would rule that the shades, shadow conjuration, and shadow evocation spells cannot be used as counterspells (except against themselves, of course, or in other special circumstances with counterspelling feats).
Dakkareth 10-16-04, 04:42 AM	Couldn't you just use the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration series? Well, the point of a lesser wish would be to have the versatility of a limited wish available a few levels earlier. The spell levels, that can be reproduced by (limited) wish are based on the level of each spell, so dropping them another two levels would be no problem. About counterspelling with shadow spells: That's an interesting question. Maybe if the caster whose spell you want to negate fails his will save against the illusion? He'd think, the counterspell was for real and thus it would be - as far as he is concerned. Considering a sor/wiz's high will save it wouldn't be a save thing, but under certain circumstances this creative tactic could work ...
RaspK FOG 10-16-04, 05:11 AM	Actually, counterspelling works based on the energies provided by the spell; the concept of Illusion spells dealing normal damage unless disbelieved is based on the quasi-reality of the spell; however, they remain simulations, not copies, unlike with Miracle, Limited Wish, and Wish.
kSquared 10-16-04, 08:26 AM	RaspK said it better than I did two posts up. His explanation is pretty much a slam dunk for why shadow subschool spells shouldn't work. =)
RaspK FOG 10-16-04, 10:54 PM	RaspK said it better than I did two posts up. His explanation is pretty much a slam dunk for why shadow subschool spells shouldn't work. =) Thank you... :)