counterspelling.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

counterspelling.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
preacher of nothing
08-06-04, 10:44 AM i know this is going to sound so terribly lame....but i am having some trouble getting all the counterspelling notions into my wee little brain (maybe that's why i preffer playing sorc's not wizards).
OCULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN?? PLEAAAAASSEEEE i need your heeeeeeeelllpppppp!!!!!!

thanks in advance
Pentar
08-06-04, 11:18 AM Hi there,

Well, first things first - counterspelling is something both Sorcerers and Wizards can do. Wizards and Sorcerers are arguably equal in their ability to counterspell, depending mainly on what feats are selected.

Effectively, a counterspell is simply preventing someone else's spell from having an effect with the exact same spell. It's like unravelling someone else's magic as they're trying to invoke it. I imagine it like writing.

An opponent spell caster is casting a spell (or writing something out). For each word of the spell they cast, you (using the same spell) would erase it. So as they try to cast a spell, you're using your counterspell to erase the effects, cancelling your opponent's magic outright.

For example; Evil Wizard ABC tries to cast a Fireball on you. You have readied an action to act when Wizard ABC casts a spell, therefore, you can act at this time. As a free action, you may make a Spellcraft check (DC is 15 + spell level I think) to see if you know what the spell is.

If you fail the spellcraft check, you don't know what spell is being cast. At this point, you can -still- counterspell, but it may be more difficult.

If you succeed the spellcraft check, you know what the enemy caster is casting. If you have the Fireball spell prepared (or you know the spell and have spell slots left to cast it, as a Sorcerer) then you may elect to counterspell it by casting the same spell as the enemy caster. This is a 100% guarantee counterspell (assuming you don't get interrupted by other factors), so Wizard ABC's Fireball fails to take effect and nothing happens.

If you don't have Fireball prepared, or you don't have the spell as a Sorcerer, then you may only counter it by using a Dispel Magic (normal or the Greater). That results in an immediate caster level check. If you succeed, then you countered the spell. If you fail, then Wizard ABC's Fireball goes off (Boom!).

There are some feats you can take to help you counterspell. These are;

Improved Counterspell; you may counter a spell with any spell of the same school one level higher. Therefore, from the above example, even if you didn't have Fireball memorized, if you had any 4th-level or higher Evocation school spell prepared or learned, you could use that instead to counter the Fireball automatically.

Reactive Counterspell; you may counter a spell by taking up your next action to do so. This lets you counter a spell even if you do not have an action readied to do so (and even if you have already taken an action that turn).

It should be noted that counterspelling is different from interruption. Interruption requires a Concentration check on the part of the caster. If the caster succeeds the concentration check, then they may continue to cast. A counterspell simply erases the spell effect completely - with the opponent caster having no ability to prevent it.

As far as I know, you cannot counter a counterspell.
The_Ditto
08-06-04, 11:23 AM Originally posted by Pentar

Well, first things first - counterspelling is something both Sorcerers and Wizards can do.

I don't know of any reason a Cleric, Druid or Bard can't do it ... :confused:

in fact .. from the SRD:

COUNTERSPELLS
It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

Originally posted by Pentar

As far as I know, you cannot counter a counterspell.

Ah, interesting point ... that is, what if 3 wizards are about??

hmm .... :smirk: ... it still requires casting, so there's no reason another wizard also readying to counterspell could not counter the counterspell ... thus allowing the original wizard's spell to go off ..

:uh-huh:
ow .. my brain hurts ....
:behold:
Pentar
08-06-04, 11:29 AM Originally posted by The_Ditto
I don't know of any reason a Cleric, Druid or Bard can't do it ... :confused:

Oh, absolutely, any spell caster can technically counterspell (heh, technically a Paladin, Ranger, Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster... could all potentially counterspell) :)

The original poster mentioned he normally played Sorcs instead of Wizards because he was confused about counterspelling. I was just noting that Sorcerers are perfectly capable of counterspelling too, and arguably just as good as Wizards at it.

Ah, interesting point ... that is, what if 3 wizards are about??

hmm .... :smirk: ... it still requires casting, so there's no reason another wizard also readying to counterspell could not counter the counterspell ... thus allowing the original wizard's spell to go off ..

:uh-huh:
ow .. my brain hurts ....
:behold:

It's sort of like Magic: The Gathering if you've ever geeked out and played that before. It was possible in Magic for you to Counter someone else's Counterspell. And they, in turn, could counter your counter, and on and on and on. I do not believe this is the case in D&D. The only way to stop someone from counterspelling is to interrupt them.
The_Ditto
08-06-04, 12:52 PM Originally posted by Pentar

It's sort of like Magic: The Gathering if you've ever geeked out and played that before. It was possible in Magic for you to Counter someone else's Counterspell. And they, in turn, could counter your counter, and on and on and on. I do not believe this is the case in D&D. The only way to stop someone from counterspelling is to interrupt them.

oh yeah .. got a big box of cards myself ... right back to Unlimited .. hehe

But I don't think we really want to bring "The Stack" into D&D, now, do we??

:rofl:
preacher of nothing
08-06-04, 04:15 PM thanks a lot for the replies people...they're very helpful...but what you're saying is that caster level doesn't matter as long as you have the spell??? what about scrolls? it would sound pretty silly for a 2nd. level character with nice scrolls tucked away to counterspell a lich's spell :D

oh and by

wee little brain (maybe that's why i preffer playing sorc's not wizards).

i meant low int. score as in not good for wizards ;)
The_Ditto
08-06-04, 04:19 PM Originally posted by preacher of nothing
thanks a lot for the replies people...they're very helpful...but what you're saying is that caster level doesn't matter as long as you have the spell??? what about scrolls? it would sound pretty silly for a 2nd. level character with nice scrolls tucked away to counterspell a lich's spell :D

Techincally .. yes . that is correct ... (unless I've forgotten something specific to counterspelling which prevents usage of magic items? such as scrolls, wands, etc?? don't think so .. but still ...)

:rolleyes:
preacher of nothing
08-06-04, 04:28 PM so what you're saying is that an arcane trickster is gonna get his hands on the strongest and most expensive spell scrolls and then go beat the crap out of velsharoon right? :D :devil:
KShaver
08-06-04, 04:45 PM Originally posted by preacher of nothing
...but what you're saying is that caster level doesn't matter as long as you have the spell??? what about scrolls? it would sound pretty silly for a 2nd. level character with nice scrolls tucked away to counterspell a lich's spell

Correct, caster level does not matter for countering.

As far as I know you can counter with scrolls, but you would need to have the exact scroll you needed in hand at the right time, which is very unlikely unless you know your opponents favorite spell.
Pentar
08-06-04, 04:59 PM Originally posted by preacher of nothing
thanks a lot for the replies people...they're very helpful...but what you're saying is that caster level doesn't matter as long as you have the spell??? what about scrolls? it would sound pretty silly for a 2nd. level character with nice scrolls tucked away to counterspell a lich's spell :D

Caster level only matters if you're counterspelling with a Dispel Magic effect. Then you have to make a caster level check against the caster level of the opponent.

So it would be;

d20 + Your Caster Level vs DC Opponent Caster Level + 11

That would be the only time your caster level would matter on a dispel magic. The nice thing is, you can counter any level spell with a Dispel Magic. Technically, you could attempt to dispel a 9th-level spell with it. :) But because Dispel Magic has a cap of +10 to caster level, Greater Dispel becomes more useful for high level counter-magic.

Scrolls would work too - but as pointed out by KShaver, you'd have to practically have the scroll in hand and ready to use in order to counter from it. So unless you totally luck out and happen to have that scroll in hand, chances are you wouldn't be able to use scrolls.
masterofmayhem
08-06-04, 05:00 PM Originally posted by KShaver
Correct, caster level does not matter for countering.

As far as I know you can counter with scrolls, but you would need to have the exact scroll you needed in hand at the right time, which is very unlikely unless you know your opponents favorite spell.
Right. As was probably mentioned above (like I'm going to read that essay :rolleyes: ) you need to ready an action to counterspell. Since you can only ready a standard action, you are not able to take out a scroll and counterspell with one ready action.

Although I don't know whether or not you could have, say, 10 scrolls in your hand . . . :angel:
preacher of nothing
08-06-04, 05:15 PM hmm...you have a point mayhem....but then again, if you know your opponent well enough, you can have him disarmed before he even knows it...right? You know he's going to be using a spell often enough...it's his most powerful and fav. spell...he's going to be using it a lot....You just basically need to get the scroll and hire an arcane magic caster.
Kheldren
08-07-04, 07:02 AM Even if you do have the correct scroll in had, there are rules for reading scrolls for spells that are too high a level for you to cast...
preacher of nothing
08-07-04, 07:12 AM oh...i understand. But assuming you're the right level.....wow...counterspelling really IS fun :P
BlackSmith
08-07-04, 07:49 AM SRD: Feats: IMPROVED COUNTERSPELL [GENERAL]

Benefit: When counterspelling, you may use a spell of the same school that is one or more spell levels higher than the target spell.
Normal: Without this feat, you may counter a spell only with the same spell or with a spell specifically designated as countering the target spell.
knock your self out.

if you realy like counterspell (like my new sorcer Eerik likes), you could drop a line and take a peak at my Master Counterspeller in my Sig.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
preacher of nothing 08-06-04, 10:44 AM	i know this is going to sound so terribly lame....but i am having some trouble getting all the counterspelling notions into my wee little brain (maybe that's why i preffer playing sorc's not wizards). OCULD SOMEONE EXPLAIN?? PLEAAAAASSEEEE i need your heeeeeeeelllpppppp!!!!!! thanks in advance
Pentar 08-06-04, 11:18 AM	Hi there, Well, first things first - counterspelling is something both Sorcerers and Wizards can do. Wizards and Sorcerers are arguably equal in their ability to counterspell, depending mainly on what feats are selected. Effectively, a counterspell is simply preventing someone else's spell from having an effect with the exact same spell. It's like unravelling someone else's magic as they're trying to invoke it. I imagine it like writing. An opponent spell caster is casting a spell (or writing something out). For each word of the spell they cast, you (using the same spell) would erase it. So as they try to cast a spell, you're using your counterspell to erase the effects, cancelling your opponent's magic outright. For example; Evil Wizard ABC tries to cast a Fireball on you. You have readied an action to act when Wizard ABC casts a spell, therefore, you can act at this time. As a free action, you may make a Spellcraft check (DC is 15 + spell level I think) to see if you know what the spell is. If you fail the spellcraft check, you don't know what spell is being cast. At this point, you can -still- counterspell, but it may be more difficult. If you succeed the spellcraft check, you know what the enemy caster is casting. If you have the Fireball spell prepared (or you know the spell and have spell slots left to cast it, as a Sorcerer) then you may elect to counterspell it by casting the same spell as the enemy caster. This is a 100% guarantee counterspell (assuming you don't get interrupted by other factors), so Wizard ABC's Fireball fails to take effect and nothing happens. If you don't have Fireball prepared, or you don't have the spell as a Sorcerer, then you may only counter it by using a Dispel Magic (normal or the Greater). That results in an immediate caster level check. If you succeed, then you countered the spell. If you fail, then Wizard ABC's Fireball goes off (Boom!). There are some feats you can take to help you counterspell. These are; Improved Counterspell; you may counter a spell with any spell of the same school one level higher. Therefore, from the above example, even if you didn't have Fireball memorized, if you had any 4th-level or higher Evocation school spell prepared or learned, you could use that instead to counter the Fireball automatically. Reactive Counterspell; you may counter a spell by taking up your next action to do so. This lets you counter a spell even if you do not have an action readied to do so (and even if you have already taken an action that turn). It should be noted that counterspelling is different from interruption. Interruption requires a Concentration check on the part of the caster. If the caster succeeds the concentration check, then they may continue to cast. A counterspell simply erases the spell effect completely - with the opponent caster having no ability to prevent it. As far as I know, you cannot counter a counterspell.
The_Ditto 08-06-04, 11:23 AM	Originally posted by Pentar Well, first things first - counterspelling is something both Sorcerers and Wizards can do. I don't know of any reason a Cleric, Druid or Bard can't do it ... :confused: in fact .. from the SRD: COUNTERSPELLS It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane. Originally posted by Pentar As far as I know, you cannot counter a counterspell. Ah, interesting point ... that is, what if 3 wizards are about?? hmm .... :smirk: ... it still requires casting, so there's no reason another wizard also readying to counterspell could not counter the counterspell ... thus allowing the original wizard's spell to go off .. :uh-huh: ow .. my brain hurts .... :behold:
Pentar 08-06-04, 11:29 AM	Originally posted by The_Ditto I don't know of any reason a Cleric, Druid or Bard can't do it ... :confused: Oh, absolutely, any spell caster can technically counterspell (heh, technically a Paladin, Ranger, Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster... could all potentially counterspell) :) The original poster mentioned he normally played Sorcs instead of Wizards because he was confused about counterspelling. I was just noting that Sorcerers are perfectly capable of counterspelling too, and arguably just as good as Wizards at it. Ah, interesting point ... that is, what if 3 wizards are about?? hmm .... :smirk: ... it still requires casting, so there's no reason another wizard also readying to counterspell could not counter the counterspell ... thus allowing the original wizard's spell to go off .. :uh-huh: ow .. my brain hurts .... :behold: It's sort of like Magic: The Gathering if you've ever geeked out and played that before. It was possible in Magic for you to Counter someone else's Counterspell. And they, in turn, could counter your counter, and on and on and on. I do not believe this is the case in D&D. The only way to stop someone from counterspelling is to interrupt them.
The_Ditto 08-06-04, 12:52 PM	Originally posted by Pentar It's sort of like Magic: The Gathering if you've ever geeked out and played that before. It was possible in Magic for you to Counter someone else's Counterspell. And they, in turn, could counter your counter, and on and on and on. I do not believe this is the case in D&D. The only way to stop someone from counterspelling is to interrupt them. oh yeah .. got a big box of cards myself ... right back to Unlimited .. hehe But I don't think we really want to bring "The Stack" into D&D, now, do we?? :rofl:
preacher of nothing 08-06-04, 04:15 PM	thanks a lot for the replies people...they're very helpful...but what you're saying is that caster level doesn't matter as long as you have the spell??? what about scrolls? it would sound pretty silly for a 2nd. level character with nice scrolls tucked away to counterspell a lich's spell :D oh and by wee little brain (maybe that's why i preffer playing sorc's not wizards). i meant low int. score as in not good for wizards ;)
The_Ditto 08-06-04, 04:19 PM	Originally posted by preacher of nothing thanks a lot for the replies people...they're very helpful...but what you're saying is that caster level doesn't matter as long as you have the spell??? what about scrolls? it would sound pretty silly for a 2nd. level character with nice scrolls tucked away to counterspell a lich's spell :D Techincally .. yes . that is correct ... (unless I've forgotten something specific to counterspelling which prevents usage of magic items? such as scrolls, wands, etc?? don't think so .. but still ...) :rolleyes:
preacher of nothing 08-06-04, 04:28 PM	so what you're saying is that an arcane trickster is gonna get his hands on the strongest and most expensive spell scrolls and then go beat the crap out of velsharoon right? :D :devil:
KShaver 08-06-04, 04:45 PM	Originally posted by preacher of nothing ...but what you're saying is that caster level doesn't matter as long as you have the spell??? what about scrolls? it would sound pretty silly for a 2nd. level character with nice scrolls tucked away to counterspell a lich's spell Correct, caster level does not matter for countering. As far as I know you can counter with scrolls, but you would need to have the exact scroll you needed in hand at the right time, which is very unlikely unless you know your opponents favorite spell.
Pentar 08-06-04, 04:59 PM	Originally posted by preacher of nothing thanks a lot for the replies people...they're very helpful...but what you're saying is that caster level doesn't matter as long as you have the spell??? what about scrolls? it would sound pretty silly for a 2nd. level character with nice scrolls tucked away to counterspell a lich's spell :D Caster level only matters if you're counterspelling with a Dispel Magic effect. Then you have to make a caster level check against the caster level of the opponent. So it would be; d20 + Your Caster Level vs DC Opponent Caster Level + 11 That would be the only time your caster level would matter on a dispel magic. The nice thing is, you can counter any level spell with a Dispel Magic. Technically, you could attempt to dispel a 9th-level spell with it. :) But because Dispel Magic has a cap of +10 to caster level, Greater Dispel becomes more useful for high level counter-magic. Scrolls would work too - but as pointed out by KShaver, you'd have to practically have the scroll in hand and ready to use in order to counter from it. So unless you totally luck out and happen to have that scroll in hand, chances are you wouldn't be able to use scrolls.
masterofmayhem 08-06-04, 05:00 PM	Originally posted by KShaver Correct, caster level does not matter for countering. As far as I know you can counter with scrolls, but you would need to have the exact scroll you needed in hand at the right time, which is very unlikely unless you know your opponents favorite spell. Right. As was probably mentioned above (like I'm going to read that essay :rolleyes: ) you need to ready an action to counterspell. Since you can only ready a standard action, you are not able to take out a scroll and counterspell with one ready action. Although I don't know whether or not you could have, say, 10 scrolls in your hand . . . :angel:
preacher of nothing 08-06-04, 05:15 PM	hmm...you have a point mayhem....but then again, if you know your opponent well enough, you can have him disarmed before he even knows it...right? You know he's going to be using a spell often enough...it's his most powerful and fav. spell...he's going to be using it a lot....You just basically need to get the scroll and hire an arcane magic caster.
Kheldren 08-07-04, 07:02 AM	Even if you do have the correct scroll in had, there are rules for reading scrolls for spells that are too high a level for you to cast...
preacher of nothing 08-07-04, 07:12 AM	oh...i understand. But assuming you're the right level.....wow...counterspelling really IS fun :P
BlackSmith 08-07-04, 07:49 AM	SRD: Feats: IMPROVED COUNTERSPELL [GENERAL] Benefit: When counterspelling, you may use a spell of the same school that is one or more spell levels higher than the target spell. Normal: Without this feat, you may counter a spell only with the same spell or with a spell specifically designated as countering the target spell. knock your self out. if you realy like counterspell (like my new sorcer Eerik likes), you could drop a line and take a peak at my Master Counterspeller in my Sig.