counterspelling [Archive] - Wizards Community

counterspelling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AngryMatt
10-10-07, 11:22 AM From another thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=932413&page=4):

Everyone is terrible at counterspelling, it's a lousy tactic. Being the best at counterspelling is like being the best baker in the D&D world. Sure, it's braggable on some level, but it's ultimately worthless.

So, I kinda took this as a challenge. The argument was originally about Warlocks and Voracious Dispelling, but my mind drifted to other classes and how they might be able to use Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic to better effect.

Here's what I came up with:
Human Spellthief 5/Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1)10
Feats: Able Learner, Spell Penetration, Fey Heritage, Fey Presense (provides Charm Monster as SLA, to qualify for...), Master Spellthief (spellthief levels stack with other arcane caster levels), Arcane Mastery, plus another feat at 15th

9th level: this character can cast Dispel Magic at +10 (8 caster levels from 4 lvls Chameleon, +5 lvls spellthief through Master ST feat capping at 10 caster levels).

Nothing to write home about at this point, he's only getting a 5% bump compared to other casters at the same level.

12th level: here's where things get interesting. Bards get Greater Dispel Magic as a 5th level spell, and Chameleons can memorize arcane spells from any spell list.

With 7 levels of Chameleon and 5 levels of ST along with the master ST feat, this counts as 19 caster levels for Greater Dispel. Along with Arcane Mastery, this is 10 + 19, meaning this character automatically dispels any spell cast by another caster at 19th level or below, albeit probably only once a day.

14th level: with 9 levels of Chameleon, this character is now probably getting three fifth level spells and one sixth level spells in both Arcane and Divine focus, for a total of three (arcane) and two 6th (divine and arcane).

Five times a day this character could cast greater Dispel, automatically cancelling a spell cast by any caster 20th level or lower when cast as an arcane spell, and any caster 18th level or lower when cast as divine.

15th level: now eight times a day he's automatically counterspelling spells cast by anyone caster level 20th or lower.

Truly, this character's souffles are c'est magnifique!
Black Mantha
10-10-07, 12:11 PM Better give him Improved Initiative, something to see through invisibility and probably ranks in Spot so he wouldn't be fried when the higher-level caster casts a spell first. Counterspelling still is a "one action to stop one action" tactic, so it's only worth your time if the other guy is higher level (and a spellcaster, of course), and there are various ways around it.
Omen_of_Peace
10-12-07, 09:43 AM To counterspell, go Wizard/Master Specialist (Abjurer) - see the Wizard Handbook on the CO board. The key spell for that is in Heroes of Battle (or alternatively Complete Arcane for a higher-level version).
runestar
10-12-07, 10:09 AM The inherent problem with counterspelling is that unless you go out of your way to optimize it with abilities like mastery of counterspelling or the epic counterspell feat, it is ultimately a zero-sum game, since you trade 1 spell to negate one of the opponent's spells. Likewise, you must ready an action to counterspell (unless you have reactive counterspell), and the foe *must* cast a spell. If he opts to use a wand, or an SLA or some other action, then you have just wasted a round doing nothing.

Compare this with other options, such as reading an action to cast orb of acid at an enemy spellcaster when he would cast a spell. The result is pretty much the same - the wizard loses his spell as he is forced to make a ridiculously high concentration check he has no chance of ever making under normal conditions, and he takes damage in addition to losing the spell he is trying to cast.

Simply put, counterspelling sucks because there are so many other alternatives, and all of them are generally superior choices.
Omen_of_Peace
10-13-07, 06:52 AM Battlemagic Perception (HoB, 3) allows counterspelling as a free action not on your turn (without readying an action) once during its 10min/CL duration. That makes it superior to readying an action to damage the spellcaster IMO.

edit: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12991308&postcount=11

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AngryMatt 10-10-07, 11:22 AM	From another thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=932413&page=4): Everyone is terrible at counterspelling, it's a lousy tactic. Being the best at counterspelling is like being the best baker in the D&D world. Sure, it's braggable on some level, but it's ultimately worthless. So, I kinda took this as a challenge. The argument was originally about Warlocks and Voracious Dispelling, but my mind drifted to other classes and how they might be able to use Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic to better effect. Here's what I came up with: Human Spellthief 5/Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1)10 Feats: Able Learner, Spell Penetration, Fey Heritage, Fey Presense (provides Charm Monster as SLA, to qualify for...), Master Spellthief (spellthief levels stack with other arcane caster levels), Arcane Mastery, plus another feat at 15th 9th level: this character can cast Dispel Magic at +10 (8 caster levels from 4 lvls Chameleon, +5 lvls spellthief through Master ST feat capping at 10 caster levels). Nothing to write home about at this point, he's only getting a 5% bump compared to other casters at the same level. 12th level: here's where things get interesting. Bards get Greater Dispel Magic as a 5th level spell, and Chameleons can memorize arcane spells from any spell list. With 7 levels of Chameleon and 5 levels of ST along with the master ST feat, this counts as 19 caster levels for Greater Dispel. Along with Arcane Mastery, this is 10 + 19, meaning this character automatically dispels any spell cast by another caster at 19th level or below, albeit probably only once a day. 14th level: with 9 levels of Chameleon, this character is now probably getting three fifth level spells and one sixth level spells in both Arcane and Divine focus, for a total of three (arcane) and two 6th (divine and arcane). Five times a day this character could cast greater Dispel, automatically cancelling a spell cast by any caster 20th level or lower when cast as an arcane spell, and any caster 18th level or lower when cast as divine. 15th level: now eight times a day he's automatically counterspelling spells cast by anyone caster level 20th or lower. Truly, this character's souffles are c'est magnifique!
Black Mantha 10-10-07, 12:11 PM	Better give him Improved Initiative, something to see through invisibility and probably ranks in Spot so he wouldn't be fried when the higher-level caster casts a spell first. Counterspelling still is a "one action to stop one action" tactic, so it's only worth your time if the other guy is higher level (and a spellcaster, of course), and there are various ways around it.
Omen_of_Peace 10-12-07, 09:43 AM	To counterspell, go Wizard/Master Specialist (Abjurer) - see the Wizard Handbook on the CO board. The key spell for that is in Heroes of Battle (or alternatively Complete Arcane for a higher-level version).
runestar 10-12-07, 10:09 AM	The inherent problem with counterspelling is that unless you go out of your way to optimize it with abilities like mastery of counterspelling or the epic counterspell feat, it is ultimately a zero-sum game, since you trade 1 spell to negate one of the opponent's spells. Likewise, you must ready an action to counterspell (unless you have reactive counterspell), and the foe must cast a spell. If he opts to use a wand, or an SLA or some other action, then you have just wasted a round doing nothing. Compare this with other options, such as reading an action to cast orb of acid at an enemy spellcaster when he would cast a spell. The result is pretty much the same - the wizard loses his spell as he is forced to make a ridiculously high concentration check he has no chance of ever making under normal conditions, and he takes damage in addition to losing the spell he is trying to cast. Simply put, counterspelling sucks because there are so many other alternatives, and all of them are generally superior choices.
Omen_of_Peace 10-13-07, 06:52 AM	Battlemagic Perception (HoB, 3) allows counterspelling as a free action not on your turn (without readying an action) once during its 10min/CL duration. That makes it superior to readying an action to damage the spellcaster IMO. edit: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12991308&postcount=11