Post/Author/DateTime	Post
childofbhaal 07-16-05, 04:40 PM	I've been a D&D player for the better part of 9 years, and I know the books fairly well, from first edition to now, but I've come across some interesting subjects that the rules just dont explain. 1: When countering a spell, I know you must ready an action to do so, roll your Spellcraft Check, and proceed to counter the spell. But what happend when the opponent mage is casting a Quickened, Silent, and Stilled spell? Doed the Spellcraft DC go up? Is it considered uncounterable? 2: Second scenario... you've managed to counter an opponents spell, Domination, and allowed your party's fighter to remain your ally. But the opponent proceeds to cast Domination again, using Quicken Spell this time to grant him that extra spell. You have Quicken Spell as well, can you counter twice? Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, or maybe these questions were simply left to the DM to decide, but if anyone has any information for me, I'd love to hear it.
mushraeddur 07-16-05, 04:55 PM	I'm new to 3.5 as well. Could someone also explain how counterspell actually works? I don't understand the ready action thing and all. Could someone maybe provide an example of a mage/sorc. countering a spell? The OP questions are interesting as well, and I too would like a clear answer regarding them. Thanks
Merestil Haye 07-16-05, 06:43 PM	First, here's the main rules on the topicCounterspells It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane. How Counterspells Work To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.) If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things. To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results. Counterspelling Metamagic Spells Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered Specific Exceptions Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects. Dispel Magic as a Counterspell You can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, and you don’t need to identify the spell he or she is casting. However, dispel magic doesn’t always work as a counterspell (see the spell description). Since modifying the spell with metamagic feats does not affect the ability to counter the spell, then a Quickened, Silent, Stilled spell can still be countered. There were some suggestions in Tome & Blood about increasing the DC for each missing component; +2 for each, I believe. Whether the DM rules the spell identifiable or not, it can still be countered by using Dispel Magic as a counter (see the Dispel Magic spell text). Since you must ready an action to counterspell, and that requires a standard action, you may not counter more than one spell per round. There are more details in one of the Rules of the Game articles; I'll try and track them down and link to them. Edit : Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050524a) is the article.
mushraeddur 07-16-05, 06:52 PM	Ok, so when you ready an action to counterspell... it is your intiative you tell DM you are readying action to counterspell and name your target? and you wait to see if the target will cast a spell that you can counter during his/her initiative? What if the target decides not to cast a spell? Is your ready action wasted and no other action is possible? I apologize if my questions sound foolish...it's just that I am quite ignorant of the mechanics involved.
Merestil Haye 07-16-05, 06:57 PM	Ok, so when you ready an action to counterspell... it is your intiative you tell DM you are readying action to counterspell and name your target? and you wait to see if the target will cast a spell that you can counter during his/her initiative? What if the target decides not to cast a spell? Is your ready action wasted and no other action is possible? I apologize if my questions sound foolish...it's just that I am quite ignorant of the mechanics involved.That's pretty much right, yes. Counterspelling is good in the right circumstances - mainly when the enemy has one big swing spell that if it goes off will seriously hurt you. As you spotted, if the triggering action never occurs, your readied action is wasted. When it gets to your turn in the next round of combat, if your trigger has not occurred you have lost the action and done nothing. Think of it as insurance.
mushraeddur 07-16-05, 07:06 PM	Thank you so much for replying. I guess counterspelling is extremely situational. I guess if you get into combat and see a mage/sorc. character you can guess that he/she will most likely cast a spell. what is the range of counterspelling?
Merestil Haye 07-16-05, 07:09 PM	Thank you so much for replying. I guess counterspelling is extremely situational. I guess if you get into combat and see a mage/sorc. character you can guess that he/she will most likely cast a spell. what is the range of counterspelling?The range of a counterspell is the range of the spell you are using as a counterspell. Examples. If the spell is Touch (eg Inflict Serious Wounds) you must touch the caster. You cannot move to do so. If the rrange is Medium you must be within (10 + your caster level) * 10 feet.
childofbhaal 07-17-05, 12:57 AM	Thank you for the info, the part about to +2 for each additional component missing was the major factor I was looking for. This also helps me, considering I am the mage in question most of the time. My DM is semi-new and I baffle him constantly, since I am a player who explores all options and possible outcomes before choosing an action (as all players should). As far as the ready action goes, I already have Reactive Counterspell, and Epic Counterspell, therefore I have no need to ready the action. I suggest that for any mage who does not wish to "waste" his action to counter a spell that never comes. By the way, I'm new to the message boards, glad to meet you.
runestar 07-17-05, 01:14 AM	I think you can't counter quickened spells, unless you have the reactive counterspell feat or something.
childofbhaal 07-17-05, 01:15 AM	According to what others have said, it'll add a +2 circumstance bonus to the Spellcraft DC, but my DM has said the same thing... an onlooking mage doesn't have the time to correctly identify and cast the counterspell in time to stop the spell being cast.
Breetai 07-17-05, 02:55 AM	Wait a minute When they are talking about metamagic feats not effecting countering they specifically are talking about maximized or other spell augmentations that might change the "power" of the spell. Not metamagic feats in general. The first manuver to counter a spell is to roll a free spellcraft check. According to the players and the linked article you need to see or hear the spells verbal, somantic, or material components in order to get a spellcraft check. So if a spell has no casting components left to identify with a spellcraft it can't be counterd. Your basically failing the check every time because no way to identify it until it's too late. Is there another rule somewhere that indicates a spellcraft check can be made without seeing the components is an exeption?
mikevw2 07-17-05, 09:17 AM	In respect to Reactive counterspell, since you lose the next turn's standard action it is possible to counter 2 spells in one turn. First, ready the action to counter a spell, If its identified etc. Then if the opposing mage decides to use the quickened spell, it should be possible for you to use the reactive counterspell, thus countering the quickened spell and expending your next turn as a result.
Traevanon 07-17-05, 10:40 AM	Wait a minute When they are talking about metamagic feats not effecting countering they specifically are talking about maximized or other spell augmentations that might change the "power" of the spell. Not metamagic feats in general. The first manuver to counter a spell is to roll a free spellcraft check. According to the players and the linked article you need to see or hear the spells verbal, somantic, or material components in order to get a spellcraft check. So if a spell has no casting components left to identify with a spellcraft it can't be counterd. Your basically failing the check every time because no way to identify it until it's too late. Is there another rule somewhere that indicates a spellcraft check can be made without seeing the components is an exeption? I agree. It looks like the DC of 20+spell level required to identify the effects of a spell in progress would apply to this situation, and since its already done, its too late. I might allow it if you could quicken your spell to a casting time *less* than the caster (since you started later) but thats a house rule. Incidentally I wanted to look up the exact wording on reactive counterspell for this post but I couldnt find it, what book is it in?
mikevw2 07-17-05, 11:51 AM	Its in Players Guide to Faerun.
The Simbul 07-17-05, 01:27 PM	If you cannot identify a spell then you cannot counter it, unless you are using a blind/unreliable counterspell effect like Dispel Magic. In order to identify a spell, you must either a) hear a verbal component, b) see a somatic component, or c) have the benefits of a magic item, spell, feat, or ability that gives you information about spells as they are being cast without necessarily being required to observe them (example; the Battlemagic Perception spell, a Ring of Spell-battle, or the Weavesight ability of The Magister). Thus if a spellcaster is casting a spell whose components have been removed via metamagic, and you dont have some other ability to discern the magic involved, then you cannot counterspell it. If a spell is out of range, you likewise cannot counter it either. Among other things, this means that personal range spells like Timestop, Shapechange, Teleport (so long as you dont touch additional targets), etc cannot be counterspelled since you will never be in range of those spells unless you are the caster, except when using a Dispel effect (which has a range of medium).
The Simbul 07-17-05, 01:45 PM	I once had been of the opinion that Quickened or swift action spells should not be subject to counterspells (even though that isnt found in the rules) because they do not provoke an attack of opportunity. However, counterspelling involved readying an action, it isnt something you can do because a foe is engaged in a distracting action. A Fighter can ready an action to attack a mage "if he looks like he is casting a spell" to disrupt his concentration, even if the spell doesnt incur an AoO or if the mage is casting defensively. Thus and therefore, I no longer see any reason to excempt quickened spells from counterspells. That said, you only get one standard action per round, and as a result you can only "ready an action to cast a spell as counterspell" once per round. Thus you could counter an enemies quickened spell or his standard action spell, but I wouldnt allow you to do both.