Counterspells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Counterspells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheEndLessBuilder
05-17-06, 08:50 PM Ok i've played DND for along time and have never seen anyone ever counter a spell. It just does not seem like a good system. Is this just my groups or does no one ever counter spells?
runestar
05-17-06, 10:14 PM It's not just you. Counterspelling isn't that well implemented compared with mechanics such as Magic, and there really aren't that many scenarios where counterspelling is superior to simply whacking the offending mage with a damage spell. :(

It takes quite a fair bit of effort to make a decent counterspelling-oriented build, and even then, it's far from game-breaking.
tennesseefats
05-18-06, 12:07 PM It's not your group; ours very rarely does any direct counterspelling - spell slots are too valuable. However, it has been done. The most popular counterspell (especially with prepared casters) is dispel magic as it can be used against any spell without worrying about having the right spell prepared or wasting a potentially useful spell such as fireball. That doesn't mean that using a spell to counter another doesn't happen, but counterspelling with dispel magic is far more common as the mechanic is cleaner and that's why a caster usually prepares dispel magic - to counter magic.

I did once play in a game with a sorcerer who was a dispel fiend: All the feats and the only 3rd level spell known was dispel magic
Mandarbgrim
05-18-06, 12:14 PM I did it recently against a Lich using Battlemagic Perception from Heroes of Battle. And was intending to start doing it normally after the spell ran out..but he died due to multiple Sound Lances and Orbs of Force.

Having the BBEG's spellbook BEFORE you fight him helps a lot with counterspelling.
cambric
05-18-06, 12:16 PM Very rarely done!

I did have a rogue/wizard player who specifically built the side of his wizard to counter the BBEG. They had known this guy loved his fireballs and lightening bolts, but also used scorching rays. (New young kids, I wanted to show them the power of what is known as the 'classic' wizard.)

I never have my players tell me the spells they have memorized, I don't even know the spells they pick for their spell book, so there's never any chance of me meta-gaming against them. (They 'watch' each other to make sure they do it correctly...I have told them, "if you're in battle and you've just casted your 10th straight fireball, and you only should have 3 memorized, yeah...I'm going to check.)

They had investigated this certain wizard and found out his strengths and weaknesses...so when the battle started, I had the wizard cast "fireball", the player countered! I was impressed...he kept delaying and countering and the BBEG only had one spell get off: ice storm, but by then, the battle was all but over.

It can be done, but that was the only battle it has happened. The player said, "it was fun to stop him, but next time, I want to do the damage myself." :D

Cam
Llathos
05-18-06, 12:19 PM I'm going to have to disagree here.

One of my players just saved his party from gruesome death when he properly counterspelled a maximized fireball with his readied action. If he hadn't done it, the party would have had several fatalities on the spot.

It's all about being smart enough to know when to do it. Btw, he took a feat (forgot the name) that allows him to counterspell with any spell in the school of the one being countered. He countered the maximized fireball with a scintillating sphere.
runestar
05-18-06, 12:56 PM Like I said, it's not entirely useless, but the number of times it will actually come up as useful is not that common. Rather than counter said fireball, he could just have easily torched him with a damage spell, forcing him to make a high con check he has no chance of succeeding at. In addition to disrupting the spell, the mage would have taken some damage as well.

Plus, a mage has better things to do than ready an action every round, unless you took that reactive counterspell feat.

Though with mastery of counterspelling, it's not too bad... ;)
Tagrid
05-18-06, 01:17 PM I am that player that Llathos mentioned... and I am very much looking forward to reactive counterspell.

You're right that it doesn't get used often, though. In fact, I've built my character as a defense-oriented sorcerer and have spent most of my feats focusing on counterspelling. We're level 10 now, but this was the first time that I actually countered a spell.

I anticipate doing it more often once I don't have to ready an action to do it.
Keenath
05-18-06, 01:52 PM I agree with what's been said; counters are simply not worth the time and effort in a lot of cases.

As such, here's the houserule I've come up with -- comments welcome!

If you recognize a spell when it's being cast, you may give up your NEXT full turn to attempt a counterspell. If you do this, you skip your next action, as if you had performed a full-round action. You may make a five foot step on your turn. Counterspelling in this manner provokes an attack of opportunity as normal for casting a spell.

You can still ready an action to counterspell, in which case it costs only a standard action.

I'd also point out the Dampen Spell feat from the PHB2, which allows you to use an Immediate action to partially counter -- you spend a spell slot and subtract its level from the target spell's save DC.
JWT
05-18-06, 04:10 PM I'm going to have to disagree here.

One of my players just saved his party from gruesome death when he properly counterspelled a maximized fireball with his readied action. If he hadn't done it, the party would have had several fatalities on the spot.

It's all about being smart enough to know when to do it. Btw, he took a feat (forgot the name) that allows him to counterspell with any spell in the school of the one being countered. He countered the maximized fireball with a scintillating sphere.

While I can't fault the coolness factor, it doesn't prove that countespell is a viable tactic.

Here's why. If you had used your held action to cast an empowered Magic Missile instead (just as an example - there are other options that make the Concen check nigh unbeatable, but you need to be sure the wiz is affected by certain energy types first) you would have forced a Concentration check of (given you are 10th level as you said) on average 40 + the level of the spell he was casting. Even if he maxed out concentration, he will fail that roll. Heck even min damage requires a concentration check of 30 - VERY hard to make.

PLUS - you did damage to him. What is more - this works against spell like abilities. Counterspelling - not so much.

All that and without blowing a feat - possibly more it sounds like..... And so Counterspelling is neat, it is IMHO a trap for casters - one that sucks down precious feats.

Sorry to be a Debbie Downer.
MrkGrismer
05-18-06, 04:16 PM It does make the Ring of Spell Battle possible tho.
The Simbul
05-18-06, 05:46 PM Counterspelling was inserted into D&D in order to make it more like Magic the Gathering, along with the gross over-extension of the Summon Monster spell chain from 2E, and the concept of endlessly revising and republishing the exact same game features with minor errata or changes that you have to pay for.

As it stands, the concept is very poor indeed.

I would rather ready an action to hit an enemy mage with an Orb of Force, a Disintegrate spell, or blast of Arcane Fire if they attempt to cast a spell, rather than hoping that they will cast a specific spell, and that specific spell is on the list of those I have prepared or have known. I dont know too many non-epic NPC spellcasters who can succeed a DC 40-60 Concentration check. Countering a spell by wasting an equal (or greater) spell slot is a zero-sum advantage. Counter a spell by disrupting the enemy with a damaging effect is a 1 to 0 advantage in your favor. If you dont have Battlemagic Perception, Duelward, or the counterspelling feat tree (Improved Initiative, Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell) then counterspells are rarely worth considering.
TheFallenWriter
05-19-06, 10:00 PM It depends, if its only one wizard in a group of melee that my party can take care of (I DM and play as a PC), I will stay back with a readied action to counterspell any spell that happens. I have the Improved Counterspell feat of course, which helps a lot. High Spellcraft checks. And in response to sending spells, orb of force might work, but onyl force effects will and that is if they don' thave defensive shields ot deflect it. What self-respecting spellcaster doesn't have shields up at all times? bah, so I just stand back and counterspell all the spells he casts. The thing about magical warfare is you know when both sides are doing good when you don't have even know that they are (terry goodkind). So yah, tha tis my philosophy.

~The fallen
runestar
05-19-06, 10:23 PM IMO, counterspelling is only worth it at epic lvs, when you qualify for the epic counterspell feat(allowing you unlimited counterspelling capabilities with no caveats). Normally, the standard action wasted each round to readying could have been put to more productive uses, and reactive counterspell only partially solves this problem.
AvaronGansdell
05-19-06, 10:49 PM maximized magic misstle is a 4th level spell that will force a dc35 concentration cheak and even if thy make it you just hit them fo 25 damage.

plus "i ready a action to counter any spell he may try and cast"

"ohh well unfrtunatly he is useing the round to drink a potion of invisibility so your action was wasted sorry"

ya counterspelling in D&D is a waste with how the round structure works.

at low level just haveing the warriors and rogues stand around the guy redying actions to attack him if he moves or casts a spell is much better than the wizard trying to counter it.

and at higher levels its probebly a better Idea to just tell the enemy spellcaster to make a save or die.
JWT
05-20-06, 09:19 PM It depends, if its only one wizard in a group of melee that my party can take care of (I DM and play as a PC), I will stay back with a readied action to counterspell any spell that happens. I have the Improved Counterspell feat of course, which helps a lot. High Spellcraft checks. And in response to sending spells, orb of force might work, but onyl force effects will and that is if they don' thave defensive shields ot deflect it. What self-respecting spellcaster doesn't have shields up at all times? bah, so I just stand back and counterspell all the spells he casts.

Still not an optimal solution. You spent how many feats to get to where you are? That right there is a waste in and of itself. But barring that - shield is a visible spell. You see it - then cast a sonic orb, or disintegrate, or whatever. Plus - you took a feat to nerf spellcasters only. How many spellcasters will you fight in your career? It's not likely to be enuf to make it worth a feat. That would be like taking the energize spell feat when the DM told you that he hates running undead.

That is not to mention the fact that even with the feat you gotta have a HIGHER level spell than the one she is casting. You are gonna run dry well before she is. Then expect some pain. Hope your fighters got there in time. Of course you can use Dispel Magic (or even worse Greater Dispel), but in all likelihood this is the BBEG, and is 2-4 levels higher than you, giving you a less than 50/50 chance - and you might be spending a higher level spell than her. (Heck now that we have the dispelling screen spell, Counterspelling got even worse!)

Nope - go for the concentration check.

You can always bring up situations where counterspelling is better. You can list them till the cows come home, but on the whole 9 times out of 10 counterspelling will be a bad to horrible solution. I know sometimes it works, and it is awesome when it does. Point is most of the time it not only stinks, but also it can actively cause problems for you or your companions.

Again - a cool and fun tactic, to be sure. But far, far from optimal. For my money it just ain't cool enough to warrant spending time on it. I'd rather take purify spell, and drop an arc of lightning on her bootie. Do a little research, and you likely know what immunities she has - so drop an acid storm, or whatever on her. Even if she makes her reflex save - she ain't making the concentration check.
FlameLover
05-20-06, 09:45 PM I've been thinking of revamping the counterspell system for a bit now, and I'm thinking along the following lines.

When a caster starts casting a spell within line of sight, you may attempt to identify the spell being cast with a Spellcraft check (DC15+spell level, as normal IIRC). Doing so is a free-action. Once you have made this check (whether you made it or not doesn't count. You can even forgo the check if you want) you may take an Immediate Action to counterspell. To counterspell you lose a spell of equal or higher level that is of the same school. Doing so causes both spells to fizzle out.

This still creates the 0-0 problem, so I've also considered just a straight Caster Level check between them. The person countering doesn't lose a spell slot, but instead loses a Standard Action on there next turn or something. I dunno, just some ideas. As-is though, I never plan on countering.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheEndLessBuilder 05-17-06, 08:50 PM	Ok i've played DND for along time and have never seen anyone ever counter a spell. It just does not seem like a good system. Is this just my groups or does no one ever counter spells?
runestar 05-17-06, 10:14 PM	It's not just you. Counterspelling isn't that well implemented compared with mechanics such as Magic, and there really aren't that many scenarios where counterspelling is superior to simply whacking the offending mage with a damage spell. :( It takes quite a fair bit of effort to make a decent counterspelling-oriented build, and even then, it's far from game-breaking.
tennesseefats 05-18-06, 12:07 PM	It's not your group; ours very rarely does any direct counterspelling - spell slots are too valuable. However, it has been done. The most popular counterspell (especially with prepared casters) is dispel magic as it can be used against any spell without worrying about having the right spell prepared or wasting a potentially useful spell such as fireball. That doesn't mean that using a spell to counter another doesn't happen, but counterspelling with dispel magic is far more common as the mechanic is cleaner and that's why a caster usually prepares dispel magic - to counter magic. I did once play in a game with a sorcerer who was a dispel fiend: All the feats and the only 3rd level spell known was dispel magic
Mandarbgrim 05-18-06, 12:14 PM	I did it recently against a Lich using Battlemagic Perception from Heroes of Battle. And was intending to start doing it normally after the spell ran out..but he died due to multiple Sound Lances and Orbs of Force. Having the BBEG's spellbook BEFORE you fight him helps a lot with counterspelling.
cambric 05-18-06, 12:16 PM	Very rarely done! I did have a rogue/wizard player who specifically built the side of his wizard to counter the BBEG. They had known this guy loved his fireballs and lightening bolts, but also used scorching rays. (New young kids, I wanted to show them the power of what is known as the 'classic' wizard.) I never have my players tell me the spells they have memorized, I don't even know the spells they pick for their spell book, so there's never any chance of me meta-gaming against them. (They 'watch' each other to make sure they do it correctly...I have told them, "if you're in battle and you've just casted your 10th straight fireball, and you only should have 3 memorized, yeah...I'm going to check.) They had investigated this certain wizard and found out his strengths and weaknesses...so when the battle started, I had the wizard cast "fireball", the player countered! I was impressed...he kept delaying and countering and the BBEG only had one spell get off: ice storm, but by then, the battle was all but over. It can be done, but that was the only battle it has happened. The player said, "it was fun to stop him, but next time, I want to do the damage myself." :D Cam
Llathos 05-18-06, 12:19 PM	I'm going to have to disagree here. One of my players just saved his party from gruesome death when he properly counterspelled a maximized fireball with his readied action. If he hadn't done it, the party would have had several fatalities on the spot. It's all about being smart enough to know when to do it. Btw, he took a feat (forgot the name) that allows him to counterspell with any spell in the school of the one being countered. He countered the maximized fireball with a scintillating sphere.
runestar 05-18-06, 12:56 PM	Like I said, it's not entirely useless, but the number of times it will actually come up as useful is not that common. Rather than counter said fireball, he could just have easily torched him with a damage spell, forcing him to make a high con check he has no chance of succeeding at. In addition to disrupting the spell, the mage would have taken some damage as well. Plus, a mage has better things to do than ready an action every round, unless you took that reactive counterspell feat. Though with mastery of counterspelling, it's not too bad... ;)
Tagrid 05-18-06, 01:17 PM	I am that player that Llathos mentioned... and I am very much looking forward to reactive counterspell. You're right that it doesn't get used often, though. In fact, I've built my character as a defense-oriented sorcerer and have spent most of my feats focusing on counterspelling. We're level 10 now, but this was the first time that I actually countered a spell. I anticipate doing it more often once I don't have to ready an action to do it.
Keenath 05-18-06, 01:52 PM	I agree with what's been said; counters are simply not worth the time and effort in a lot of cases. As such, here's the houserule I've come up with -- comments welcome! If you recognize a spell when it's being cast, you may give up your NEXT full turn to attempt a counterspell. If you do this, you skip your next action, as if you had performed a full-round action. You may make a five foot step on your turn. Counterspelling in this manner provokes an attack of opportunity as normal for casting a spell. You can still ready an action to counterspell, in which case it costs only a standard action. I'd also point out the Dampen Spell feat from the PHB2, which allows you to use an Immediate action to partially counter -- you spend a spell slot and subtract its level from the target spell's save DC.
JWT 05-18-06, 04:10 PM	I'm going to have to disagree here. One of my players just saved his party from gruesome death when he properly counterspelled a maximized fireball with his readied action. If he hadn't done it, the party would have had several fatalities on the spot. It's all about being smart enough to know when to do it. Btw, he took a feat (forgot the name) that allows him to counterspell with any spell in the school of the one being countered. He countered the maximized fireball with a scintillating sphere. While I can't fault the coolness factor, it doesn't prove that countespell is a viable tactic. Here's why. If you had used your held action to cast an empowered Magic Missile instead (just as an example - there are other options that make the Concen check nigh unbeatable, but you need to be sure the wiz is affected by certain energy types first) you would have forced a Concentration check of (given you are 10th level as you said) on average 40 + the level of the spell he was casting. Even if he maxed out concentration, he will fail that roll. Heck even min damage requires a concentration check of 30 - VERY hard to make. PLUS - you did damage to him. What is more - this works against spell like abilities. Counterspelling - not so much. All that and without blowing a feat - possibly more it sounds like..... And so Counterspelling is neat, it is IMHO a trap for casters - one that sucks down precious feats. Sorry to be a Debbie Downer.
MrkGrismer 05-18-06, 04:16 PM	It does make the Ring of Spell Battle possible tho.
The Simbul 05-18-06, 05:46 PM	Counterspelling was inserted into D&D in order to make it more like Magic the Gathering, along with the gross over-extension of the Summon Monster spell chain from 2E, and the concept of endlessly revising and republishing the exact same game features with minor errata or changes that you have to pay for. As it stands, the concept is very poor indeed. I would rather ready an action to hit an enemy mage with an Orb of Force, a Disintegrate spell, or blast of Arcane Fire if they attempt to cast a spell, rather than hoping that they will cast a specific spell, and that specific spell is on the list of those I have prepared or have known. I dont know too many non-epic NPC spellcasters who can succeed a DC 40-60 Concentration check. Countering a spell by wasting an equal (or greater) spell slot is a zero-sum advantage. Counter a spell by disrupting the enemy with a damaging effect is a 1 to 0 advantage in your favor. If you dont have Battlemagic Perception, Duelward, or the counterspelling feat tree (Improved Initiative, Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell) then counterspells are rarely worth considering.
TheFallenWriter 05-19-06, 10:00 PM	It depends, if its only one wizard in a group of melee that my party can take care of (I DM and play as a PC), I will stay back with a readied action to counterspell any spell that happens. I have the Improved Counterspell feat of course, which helps a lot. High Spellcraft checks. And in response to sending spells, orb of force might work, but onyl force effects will and that is if they don' thave defensive shields ot deflect it. What self-respecting spellcaster doesn't have shields up at all times? bah, so I just stand back and counterspell all the spells he casts. The thing about magical warfare is you know when both sides are doing good when you don't have even know that they are (terry goodkind). So yah, tha tis my philosophy. ~The fallen
runestar 05-19-06, 10:23 PM	IMO, counterspelling is only worth it at epic lvs, when you qualify for the epic counterspell feat(allowing you unlimited counterspelling capabilities with no caveats). Normally, the standard action wasted each round to readying could have been put to more productive uses, and reactive counterspell only partially solves this problem.
AvaronGansdell 05-19-06, 10:49 PM	maximized magic misstle is a 4th level spell that will force a dc35 concentration cheak and even if thy make it you just hit them fo 25 damage. plus "i ready a action to counter any spell he may try and cast" "ohh well unfrtunatly he is useing the round to drink a potion of invisibility so your action was wasted sorry" ya counterspelling in D&D is a waste with how the round structure works. at low level just haveing the warriors and rogues stand around the guy redying actions to attack him if he moves or casts a spell is much better than the wizard trying to counter it. and at higher levels its probebly a better Idea to just tell the enemy spellcaster to make a save or die.
JWT 05-20-06, 09:19 PM	It depends, if its only one wizard in a group of melee that my party can take care of (I DM and play as a PC), I will stay back with a readied action to counterspell any spell that happens. I have the Improved Counterspell feat of course, which helps a lot. High Spellcraft checks. And in response to sending spells, orb of force might work, but onyl force effects will and that is if they don' thave defensive shields ot deflect it. What self-respecting spellcaster doesn't have shields up at all times? bah, so I just stand back and counterspell all the spells he casts. Still not an optimal solution. You spent how many feats to get to where you are? That right there is a waste in and of itself. But barring that - shield is a visible spell. You see it - then cast a sonic orb, or disintegrate, or whatever. Plus - you took a feat to nerf spellcasters only. How many spellcasters will you fight in your career? It's not likely to be enuf to make it worth a feat. That would be like taking the energize spell feat when the DM told you that he hates running undead. That is not to mention the fact that even with the feat you gotta have a HIGHER level spell than the one she is casting. You are gonna run dry well before she is. Then expect some pain. Hope your fighters got there in time. Of course you can use Dispel Magic (or even worse Greater Dispel), but in all likelihood this is the BBEG, and is 2-4 levels higher than you, giving you a less than 50/50 chance - and you might be spending a higher level spell than her. (Heck now that we have the dispelling screen spell, Counterspelling got even worse!) Nope - go for the concentration check. You can always bring up situations where counterspelling is better. You can list them till the cows come home, but on the whole 9 times out of 10 counterspelling will be a bad to horrible solution. I know sometimes it works, and it is awesome when it does. Point is most of the time it not only stinks, but also it can actively cause problems for you or your companions. Again - a cool and fun tactic, to be sure. But far, far from optimal. For my money it just ain't cool enough to warrant spending time on it. I'd rather take purify spell, and drop an arc of lightning on her bootie. Do a little research, and you likely know what immunities she has - so drop an acid storm, or whatever on her. Even if she makes her reflex save - she ain't making the concentration check.
FlameLover 05-20-06, 09:45 PM	I've been thinking of revamping the counterspell system for a bit now, and I'm thinking along the following lines. When a caster starts casting a spell within line of sight, you may attempt to identify the spell being cast with a Spellcraft check (DC15+spell level, as normal IIRC). Doing so is a free-action. Once you have made this check (whether you made it or not doesn't count. You can even forgo the check if you want) you may take an Immediate Action to counterspell. To counterspell you lose a spell of equal or higher level that is of the same school. Doing so causes both spells to fizzle out. This still creates the 0-0 problem, so I've also considered just a straight Caster Level check between them. The person countering doesn't lose a spell slot, but instead loses a Standard Action on there next turn or something. I dunno, just some ideas. As-is though, I never plan on countering.