Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hovnarr 11-07-04, 11:03 AM	When Magic Jarring it is sometimes advantageous to take your host's life as quickly as possible. Then you can go back to your jar, attack someone else and commit suicide again. What's the quickest way to do this? As I see it, you can treat yourself as a helpless victim if you wish and volountarily fail your FORT save against a coup de grace attempt (bang your head in the wall of throw yourself onto a spear etc.). This would probably work as long as you don't jar something immune to criticals (most such creatures do not have life forces). Is there a better way? You might devise a spell for this purpose, that kills yourself I suppose :)
Ashenai 11-07-04, 11:20 AM	I would rule that while you can CDG yourself, you can't voluntarily fail your Fort save. (This does not go against the written rules; they only talk about voluntarily failing your Saving Throw against spells). This would be to model the fact that it is not, in fact, easy to kill yourself. Especially not in 6 seconds.
kSquared 11-07-04, 11:38 AM	This is officially the weirdest question I've ever seen asked here. =P
hovnarr 11-07-04, 11:55 AM	kSquared, I'm always glad to contribute :) Ashenai, true it is difficult to top yourself off in 6 seconds. It's one thing if you're an ogre, but how would a young dragon go about it? Swallow his tongue? I doubt it. So what I was wondering was really if there's a "certain death" way of using some spell. For instance, dimension dooring to a solid object might trap you on another plane, but I remember reading some spell where you suffered damage when travelling in a solid object (was it etheral...something?). You could of course target a few fireballs at yourself and fail those saves while dealing some damage to the other foes for good measure, but I was hoping there would be a quicker and more absolute way to go about it. What I'm asking really is "What's the most stupid way to use a spell?" The most stupid way must be one that get's you killed no matter what. Is there such a spell? The lower the level the better... How about this one: Destroy Self Universal Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: none Casting Time: 1 free action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Instantaneous If you are a living creature, you die. If you are an undead creature, you are destroyed. You may cast this spell as a free action, even when it is not your turn. You may cast this spell while unconcious or dying.
Ashenai 11-07-04, 11:56 AM	By the way, check out the Psionic power "Death Urge". It makes a target want to kill themselves, and gives rules for how they can accomplish this.
Egres 11-07-04, 12:45 PM	By the way, check out the Psionic power "Death Urge". It makes a target want to kill themselves, and gives rules for how they can accomplish this. Well, IMHO that power isn't a good reference for self-destruction rules. That power is obviosuly limited for game-balancing reasons. I can't see anything that could imply that you cannot voluntarily fail your ST against your CdG.
Ashenai 11-07-04, 12:53 PM	I can't see anything that could imply that you cannot voluntarily fail your ST against your CdG. I can't see anything that could imply that Halflings don't have wings and a 60' fly speed... except that it doesn't say anywhere that they do. So let me ask you: where does it say you can fail any saving throw voluntarily, except specifically for spells? You can, of course, house-rule it any way you like, but please don't pretend the written rules are on your side, because they are not.
kSquared 11-07-04, 01:40 PM	Frankly, I think all this rules nonsense is a waste of time. If you want to stab yourself in the eye, go for it. I mean, really, let's be reasonable. You're not gonna miss. Player: "Goodbye cruel world!" *stabs self in eye* DM: (roll dice) "Nope, you're still alive." Player: "Damn. Okay. Really this time, goodbye! Woe is me!" *stabs self in eye again* DM: (roll dice) "Nope, not yet either." Player: "Grr!" *jabs self in face repeatedly* DM: (roll dice) "Still hanging in there." Player: "F it. I target a meteor swarm on myself." DM: (roll dice) "You fail to overcome your own spell resistance. The spell disappears in a flash of harmless light."
Ashenai 11-07-04, 01:46 PM	I understand where you're coming from, but even in the real world, stabbing yourself in the eye is rarely fatal. In fact, I'll reiterate: it's actually very difficult to kill yourself in 6 seconds. You don't have the leverage for making a powerful blow, and it's impossible to aim accurately when leaning into your sword or spear. You're most likely to impale yourself in the stomach, which is usually a mortal wound, but certainly not in six seconds. There's a very practical reason why Samurai performing the hara-kiri ritual always had someone else deliver the killing blow. Whether or not you feel it's appropriate for someone seriously trying to kill himself to fail (and I understand that in a grim, gothic campaign, it can ruin the mood), it's actually entirely realistic.
ante_up 11-07-04, 02:54 PM	Under the rules you can't do it as you can't be both helpless (unable to move) and and attack yourself.
hovnarr 11-07-04, 03:05 PM	That's true ante. Infact, I don't think wizards foresaw players wanting to kill themselves and so made no rules for it. That's why I'm looking for a spell to do it, or rather which has the killing as a side effect that you can turn to your advantage when you actually WANT to die. Ah well, the search goes on.
Seeker95 11-07-04, 04:19 PM	I would rule that you cannot CDG yourself in combat, but you can intentionally crit. CDG requires your target to be helpless. Since you cannot make an attack if you are helpless, you cannot qualify to both make the CDG and be the CDG in the same round. Wanna kill your host in a hurry? Find a long fall. And pray you are still in range of your return vessel.
hovnarr 11-07-04, 05:03 PM	In an outdoors setting you can always dimension door. Going up. :)
Ashenai 11-07-04, 05:05 PM	Funnily enough, that's not a guaranteed kill. Maximum falling damage is 20d6 (70 on average), which is often not enough to kill a high-level character.
smrtgmp 11-07-04, 05:39 PM	Difficult to kill yourself in 6 seconds? Try slitting your throat. You might not die right away, but you will be well under way. Also, dishonored samurai killed themselves with a single thrust from their sword. Granted, they knew what they were doing and had to position themselves properly, but still...it doesnt seem like it would be that hard.
Egres 11-07-04, 07:25 PM	I can't see anything that could imply that Halflings don't have wings and a 60' fly speed... except that it doesn't say anywhere that they do. Incorrect. From the SRD: HALFLING Halfling, 1st-Level Warrior Small Humanoid (Halfling) Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares) No Fly . Under the rules you can't do it as you can't be both helpless (unable to move) and and attack yourself. A paralized Master of the Unseen Hand could attack himself with a Telekinetically manouvered weapon.
Ashenai 11-07-04, 09:06 PM	Difficult to kill yourself in 6 seconds? Try slitting your throat. You might not die right away, but you will be well under way. Slitting someone's throat is not as easy as it looks in the movies, especially with medieval weapons. I have a friend who's a medical student. He does a lot of carving up cadavers, and he says slitting a throat is tough. You almost certainly couldn't slit your own. Also, dishonored samurai killed themselves with a single thrust from their sword. Um, no they didn't. @Egres: Yes, my point exactly. Since the rules don't say Halflings have a Fly speed, we know they don't.
Neo_Leviathan 11-07-04, 09:34 PM	I see no reason why you couldn't kill yourself with a Rapier, or a dagger of similar make, I've been taking rapier lessons and if you drop a rapier, point down, from one foot above someone's chest, you will 'nail' them to the floor. So no reason why you coulnd't run throuself through the chest with it.
sampi 11-07-04, 09:40 PM	You can't CDG yourself, since you can't attack when you're helpless. A member of my party once tried to kill himself by stabbing himself on the chest with his longsword. What I did is I made him to a Will save (DC 15) to see if he would stay still when trying to hit himself, if he failed the save, he was denied the critical hit, but still would hit himself somewhere else, making a normal hit :P In reality, you CAN kill yourself in 6 seconds, but lets face it, usually high-level characters are pretty strong and for them to kill themselves it would take more than 6 seconds. Ironically he ended up asking somebody else to kill him, and he didn't take his armor off :D
Ashenai 11-07-04, 10:34 PM	I see no reason why you couldn't kill yourself with a Rapier, or a dagger of similar make, I've been taking rapier lessons and if you drop a rapier, point down, from one foot above someone's chest, you will 'nail' them to the floor. So no reason why you coulnd't run throuself through the chest with it. *boggle* What are you practicing with, Plutonium rapiers? There is no way you could nail someone to the floor by dropping a rapier on them. Nope. If you want to do a similar experiment, buy a whole turkey or a chicken (preferably raw), and drop the rapier on it. Will it be nailed to the floor? Nope. And a human is a lot thicker than a chicken or turkey. And yes, you could probably stick the rapier into yourself... but that's not going to be fatal in 6 seconds.
ronyon 11-07-04, 11:41 PM	Even if you couldnt slit your own throat, you should be able to open two or three magor veins or arteries. Most adventures should know where to cut, and with no struggle from your target... Perhaps death is too hard:the real problem is that d20 does little to recognize the states between unharmed and dead, so that a man with an ax could not chop his or anyone or elses hand off in combat, but he might be able to Do it as a heal check...
Nova_blade 11-08-04, 02:02 AM	Samurai usually had someone standing by, who'd cut their heads off right after they stabbed themselves, so that they wouldn't feel too much pain. Wusses. :P Plus, even if you are only possessing the body, I still say slitting your "own" throat still would take a considerable amount of willpower. Perhaps a Will saving throw of some sort?
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-08-04, 02:57 AM	There is no way you could nail someone to the floor by dropping a rapier on them. Of course not. Floors are much tougher than that. :) In all honesty, though, blades are scarily good at penetrating flesh. It takes something like 4 pounds of pressure to get a kitchen knife through human skin, and very few other tissues provide any notable resistance at all. With a good, smooth, sharp blade and a motionless target, I would actually not be too surprised to see a light rapier thrust run the target through. Provided the rapier missed all the bones that are there to prevent exactly such occurrences; there indeed were historical instances of duelists bending their blades so terribly on the other guy's ribs that they couldn't effectively fight anymore... (If you're interested, I might be able to dig up the medical papers I referenced last time I brought this up in a D&D discussion. The short version is that some guy did cadaver studies involving stabbing them with kitchen knives and measuring how much resistance different types of tissues provided.) And yes, you could probably stick the rapier into yourself... but that's not going to be fatal in 6 seconds. Actually, that would probably be surprisingly hard. Our arms aren't well-built for using long weapons against ourselves - anything longer than a dagger would be unwieldy to use for this, and anything longer than a shortsword would be very hard indeed. Not only that, but it takes quite some time for people to bleed to death. Even if you mince your heart, you've still got about 9 seconds of oxygen in your muscles. Short of disrupting the central nervous system, there's no real way to be sure of dropping someone in a short period of time.
smrtgmp 11-08-04, 03:02 AM	Slitting someone's throat is not as easy as it looks in the movies, especially with medieval weapons. I have a friend who's a medical student. He does a lot of carving up cadavers, and he says slitting a throat is tough. You almost certainly couldn't slit your own. So how sharp is your friend's magical scalpal? Do you honestly think it would be difficult to plunge the tip of a dagger into your throat? I'm a bit suprised that you concider yourself such an expert on the subject. Have you ever taken over someone elses body and attempted to slit their throat? Have you ever attempted to slit your own throat? If the answer is no (which I assume it is) than anything you say is speculation, and nothing more (which goes for the rest of us as well).
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-08-04, 03:15 AM	If the answer is no (which I assume it is) than anything you say is speculation, and nothing more (which goes for the rest of us as well). His statements are speculation from evidence, which makes them a cut above the speculations of most people. He has pretty strong evidence that slitting throats is hard to do, even with a pre-dead target and a very sharp instrument. Speculating that less optimal conditions (poor angle, medieval sharpening, time limitations, hostile environment) would make the task harder, rather than easier, is (IMHO) a pretty reasonable extrapolation from the available evidence. YMMV, but not all speculations are equal.
hovnarr 11-08-04, 03:32 AM	What I find amusing about this thread is that we're discussing the realism of being able to kill yourself in six seconds, but we do not consider taking over another person's mind by means of an enchanted gem unrealistic at all. DM: "Yes, now that you've successfully possessed the evil red dragon you may kill yourself, but let's do so realistically." Player: "But DM, there's no such thing as dragons. So how does a dragon then commit suicide realistically?" And concerning willpower - yes, normally you would probably have to have guts to kill yourself, but not if your just borrowing the body! After the first few times when you get over your instincts you won't think twice about it. Anyhow, if we're gonna be realistic about this, coup de grace is the best you can do against a helpless victim. Do you think it would be easier to kill yourself or a helpless victim? I think it would be much easier to kill a helpless victim, at least if you're gonna use a weapon. So any rules you would define for topping yourself off will be less "advantageous" than the rules for coup de grace. What I was looking for wasn't really how to kill yourself with a weapon, but how to kill yourself as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of effort. If falling damage isn't a fool proof way, then the only thing I can come up with is dismissing an etheralness spell when you have sunken deep into the earth - a time consuming business.
smrtgmp 11-08-04, 03:45 AM	His statements are speculation from evidence, which makes them a cut above the speculations of most people. He has pretty strong evidence that slitting throats is hard to do, even with a pre-dead target and a very sharp instrument. Speculating that less optimal conditions (poor angle, medieval sharpening, time limitations, hostile environment) would make the task harder, rather than easier, is (IMHO) a pretty reasonable extrapolation from the available evidence. I dont concider word of mouth testamony from a friend that may or may not exist to be strong evidence, but I've always been something of a sceptic. I'm not saying that it would be easy, just that it would be possible. Granted, it would take you longer than 6 seconds to die, but the act of inflicting the wound could likely be accomplished in such a time frame.
Egres 11-08-04, 10:39 AM	@Egres: Yes, my point exactly. Since the rules don't say Halflings have a Fly speed, we know they don't. And for the same reason, since the rules don't say anything about the fact that Halfling makes c**p, we know that they simply eat but never ******, isn't it? ;)
Naeron 11-08-04, 10:58 AM	You can't CDG yourself, since you can't attack when you're helpless. Nothing in the rules supports this. SRD - Helpless: "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." While most of the conditions that lead to the target being helpless also prevent them making an attack nothing in helpless says that you are prevented from attacking, or that being prevented from attacking per se makes you helpless. A Bound character can take actions (escape artist attempts or casting still spells without components) but is still subject to CDG. If a person freely accepts the killing blow then they are "completely at an opponent’s mercy.", a similar situation occurs when attempting to kill oneself.
Egres 11-08-04, 11:05 AM	Nothing in the rules supports this. SRD - Helpless: "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." While most of the conditions that lead to the target being helpless also prevent them making an attack nothing in helpless says that you are prevented from attacking, or that being prevented from attacking per se makes you helpless. A Bound character can take actions (escape artist attempts or casting still spells without components) but is still subject to CDG. If a person freely accepts the killing blow then they are "completely at an opponent’s mercy.", a similar situation occurs when attempting to kill oneself. Right. And, as i have said before, you can even CdG yourself while paralized. Just be a Master of the Unseen Hand, or a Psion et similia.
green_yawgmoth 11-08-04, 11:20 AM	You guys are all forgetting one very important magical item: The vorpal dagger. :D http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Purkake 11-08-04, 02:36 PM	Oh, the good old GDG'ing yourself. It should work, because you can make yourself helpless(not resist the CDG in any way). The fun begins when you try to GDG yourself with a scythe, mace, flail, bow, nunchaku or a warhammer now add a fullplate and your set. Imagine all the fun when you or the DM tries to describe it. DM: So you are surrounded by orcs and have no chance of escape, what do you do? PC: I draw my warmace and GDG myself. DM: With a warmace? IN fullplate and while being prone? How? PC: err... i drop my warmace and strangle myself, no wait i hold my breath untill I die.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-08-04, 03:18 PM	Cutting your aorta with a knife is a simple enough thing to do, if you've got nerve and a modicum of knowledge as to which side of your neck it's on. You'll take a bit more than 6 seconds to die, though, but barring healing magic, there's little you can do except try to clamp your neck shut, which doesn't leave much room for combat.
Keenath 11-08-04, 03:35 PM	I'd note that, as a medical student, this "friend" may well be working with preserved cadavers, a process which renders the flesh leathery and much tougher than a living human's. Killing yourself with a knife? Hoooy. I'd probably go ahead an allow the CDG/willingly fail the save. My reasoning is in the definition of what HP means: HP is both the ability to absorb damage, and the ability to turn a solid hit into a glancing blow. Suicidal acts automatically forego that ability, so you need something other than HP to represent it -- and that's the Coup. As far as 'a cut throat doesn't mean instant death' -- well, that's equally true of ANYONE you CDG, not just yourself. That's an argument against the Coup de Grace mechanic, not this particular use of it.
Lukeal 11-08-04, 04:20 PM	A human being has an incredible capacity for self preservation, protecting itself at a completely instinctual level that often completely ignores the conscious desires of our mind. The reason samurais had seconds for their suicide ritual was that despite incredible willpower, training and complete dedication, many samurai 'flinched' and did not perform the ritual properly. Would they still die? certainly. Would it be a dishonorable death full of pain... definately. The second was to ensure an honorable death, and it was a sign of great faith in the swordsmenship of the one chosen. As for how easy it is to kill oneself, well the emergency rooms are filled with 'attempted suicides' (124,000 per year among 19-24 yr olds). Per national health statistics (CDC, and NHO), there are at least 15-20 suicide attempts per successful suicide. Agreed that many of these are cries for help, but it is commonly accepted that less than 10% of the serious attempts are actually successfull. Basically, regardless of your intent, the body protects itself from harm on an instinctual level. Bypassing that take some elaborate planning, dedication, and willpower, and is still likely to fail. Doesn't really map to D&D but I think it's obvious that CdG works against a helpless foe. Regardless of why you are helpless. I have used that as a Roleplaying thing to gain someone's trust. Basically just stating that I am completely helpless. Note: that CdG draws AoO if anyone is seeking to prevent you from killing yourself. a well timed disarm or grapple will foil your attempt. Also, as it seems as if you are trying to use magic jar other than for it's intended purpose (a cheaper "slay living" spell), as a GM I would start impacting you psychologically for all those "deaths" you've been experiencing. Also the Diety with domain over death would start getting peeved with this impertinant fool who is cheating death (you are dying and swapping out someone else at the last moment). Having DEATH personally interested in you would be a bad thing...
Seeker95 11-08-04, 04:24 PM	On a related note (but off the rail the thread has taken)... We're talking about using this to instantly kill an opponent through magic jar. Creative, but abusive. I wouldn't allow it. My rationalization woudl be purely ad hoc / post hoc.
Lukeal 11-08-04, 05:02 PM	Hmm, as a DM I will always let a player do somthing that is allowed within the scope of the rules, creative, and possibly abusive. However, such actions will also be available to the NPCs (yep someone out there may magic jar him and kill him) OR have game world repricussions as the 'abuse' portion may impact someone's scope in the game world. As I noted before, this player using magic jar to kill people would definately come to the attention of a death deity with some very um.. negative attention if he did this often. But sometimes a unique or creative use is just what is needed to save the day. Abuse it, and the "world' will tae steps to punish you. I just dislike making abitrary "it's legal, but powerful so you can't" rules.
carnivore 11-08-04, 05:14 PM	or have a handy guillatine(spelled wrong) ready, stick your head in and pull rope and voila.......dead in under 6 seconds. or stick a poisoned heavy cross bow to your own head and pull trigger.......better yet use a poisoned Balista and do the same thing. or for a more exotic effect use the execution method from times gone by over in india,.......have your very own elephant step on your head. or learn how to correctly make and apply a noose, then go and hang yourself. wow, this is .............strange..,there are more, but i will leave them for someone else. :P
Kakerate 11-08-04, 05:21 PM	Frankly, I think all this rules nonsense is a waste of time. If you want to stab yourself in the eye, go for it. I mean, really, let's be reasonable. You're not gonna miss. Player: "Goodbye cruel world!" *stabs self in eye* DM: (roll dice) "Nope, you're still alive." Player: "Damn. Okay. Really this time, goodbye! Woe is me!" *stabs self in eye again* DM: (roll dice) "Nope, not yet either." Player: "Grr!" *jabs self in face repeatedly* DM: (roll dice) "Still hanging in there." Player: "F it. I target a meteor swarm on myself." DM: (roll dice) "You fail to overcome your own spell resistance. The spell disappears in a flash of harmless light." :rofl:
MaverickWolf 11-08-04, 05:25 PM	or learn how to correctly make and apply a noose, then go and hang yourself. Hope you rolled a good Use Rope check... Anyway, has anyway though of just running the sword straight through your neck? Honestly. Slice the spinal cord, all is well and good in the world...
Kevlimin Soulaxe 11-08-04, 05:30 PM	One word: Temple Use one hand next to your head to line up the tip of whatever item you are using. Use the other to drive that longsword/dagger/shortsword/rapier/siangham/shortspear/trident/pick/scythe/finger
Kakerate 11-08-04, 05:35 PM	Spell: Ijatsu Kaboom sorc/wis 1 range: personal This spell causes you to explode in great balls of fire with blood spewing all about as your bodily organs ignite and whirl about in a cyclonic firestorm with your body at the center for 1d4 rounds. All who see the carnage must make will saves or be frightened for 2d4 rounds. Material component: Your body
Turin 11-08-04, 06:13 PM	Cutting your aorta with a knife is a simple enough thing to do, if you've got nerve and a modicum of knowledge as to which side of your neck it's on.Had to chime in because it's a line from a very good movie: Your aorta is in your chest.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-08-04, 07:17 PM	I dont concider word of mouth testamony from a friend that may or may not exist to be strong evidence He has strong evidence; whether or not we have strong evidence depends on our level of belief in his trustworthiness. :) Granted, it would take you longer than 6 seconds to die, but the act of inflicting the wound could likely be accomplished in such a time frame. That might be better dealt with in D&D as an "of wounding" effect, with N points of bleeding per round. Bleeding to death often takes a while.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-08-04, 07:51 PM	One word: Temple One word: bone It's a myth that a person's temples are a tremendously weak point on the skull; there's still a reasonable skull thickness there that a weapon attack would need to pierce. (See http://meme.essortment.com/strikingvitalp_rknt.htm, for example.)
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-08-04, 07:54 PM	Spell: Ijatsu Kaboom You're probably thinking of Seppuku Kaboom. Iaijutsu Kaboom is the spell where you draw your weapon so ferociously that it goes flying out of your hands so fast it makes your head spin. :)
smrtgmp 11-08-04, 08:07 PM	He has strong evidence; whether or not we have strong evidence depends on our level of belief in his trustworthiness. :) Given the following statement from Keenath:I'd note that, as a medical student, this "friend" may well be working with preserved cadavers, a process which renders the flesh leathery and much tougher than a living human's. who has actual first hand experience with cadavers, it seems that the information presented by Ashenai regarding the difficulty of slitting ones throat may be less than accurate. Furthermore, while I have never attempted to cut through a human, I do engage in quite a bit of cooking. My chef's knife slices through meat like butter, and it requires very little force from me to do so. I've had an accident or two where I sliced my finger, and I barely touched the blade. Concidering that the knife is, at best, masterwork quality, it seems that a magical blade would be far sharper. Therefor I maintain that it would be possible to slit ones throat with little effort (psychological impediments aside) provided you had a suitable tool. Again, I didnt say you would die in six seconds, only that it would be possible to inflict a fatal wound in said amount of time.
Seeker95 11-08-04, 09:00 PM	Hmm, as a DM I will always let a player do somthing that is allowed within the scope of the rules, creative, and possibly abusive. However, such actions will also be available to the NPCs (yep someone out there may magic jar him and kill him) OR have game world repricussions as the 'abuse' portion may impact someone's scope in the game world. I just dislike making abitrary "it's legal, but powerful so you can't" rules.I would much rather my DM use wisdom, identify it as an abusive insta-kill, and disallow it. It is a jerk of a DM who refuses to arbitrate, and instead chooses to retaliate.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-08-04, 09:14 PM	Given the following statement from Keenath: who has actual first hand experience with cadavers Does he now? That may be true, but it's no more apparent from the posts than Ashenai's information. (In particular, he doesn't appear to claim any personal involvement with cadavers himself, but rather appears to be suggesting that Ashenai's med-student friend might have a certain type of involvement.) I would be surprised if medical-training cadavers were treated such that their flesh was vastly different from living flesh, since I would have guessed that part of the goal was to give students experience with cutting apart a body (as well as seeing the structures involved first-hand). I will certainly admit it's possible, though. I'd also be surprised if the difficulty of cutting throats referred to was based on the difficulty of slicing through flesh, since everything I've read suggests that's not very hard at all for most tissues. Notable exceptions are skin (which is remarkably tough), probably tendons/ligaments (which the neck has lots of), and hard structures (such as the trachea; in full ignorance, I would guess that's where the referred-to difficulty came in). My chef's knife slices through meat like butter, and it requires very little force from me to do so. I've had an accident or two where I sliced my finger, and I barely touched the blade. Most tissues provide minimal resistance to piercing, and little to cutting. Moreover, a draw cut---where the blade is drawn across the target---is about the most efficient way to slice flesh. Concidering that the knife is, at best, masterwork quality It's questionable whether medieval-tech swords would be quite as sharp as modern-tech meat knives, which are optimized for the task at hand. In particular, it often wasn't desirable for the blade to be quite that sharp, since that would risk chipping when it struck metal. (Witness, for example, the relatively blunt points of bodkin---armour-piercing---arrows.) Depends on the target scenario, of course. Therefor I maintain that it would be possible to slit ones throat with little effort (psychological impediments aside) provided you had a suitable tool. Depends on what you mean by "slit". Your arms aren't conveniently located for cutting across the front, but you could cut across the side well. You could doubtless sever some major blood vessels with little trouble, but I think it would be more difficult to do anything involving opening the trachea. Again, I didnt say you would die in six seconds, only that it would be possible to inflict a fatal wound in said amount of time. Well, it's possible to create a fatal injury with just your fingernails---infection is a dangerous thing... ;) Jests aside, I agree with you onthis point. I may disagee in that I think the most appropriate D&D rules-mechanic is not CdG, but rather a "wounding" effect (rapid per-round hit point loss from bleeding), but that's because I see CdG as central nervous system destruction. (A bias I picked up when doing research for other game systems, and which may or may not actually be true in D&D.)
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-08-04, 10:08 PM	Suicidal acts automatically forego that ability, so you need something other than HP to represent it -- and that's the Coup. Why's that? A CdG represents a well-defined set of scenarios - taking a full-round melee attack against a helpless target - and the situation we have isn't one of those scenarios. You may rule that a suicide attempt counts as a CdG---and that may be a good ruling---but they're not innately the same thing. As far as 'a cut throat doesn't mean instant death' -- well, that's equally true of ANYONE you CDG, not just yourself. That's an argument against the Coup de Grace mechanic Only if CdG represented slitting someone's throat. Alternative---and, IMHO, more likely---explanations for the instadeath of a CdG centre around destroying the target's central nervous system. No CNS (ooze, golem), no CdG.
Lukeal 11-08-04, 10:26 PM	I would much rather my DM use wisdom, identify it as an abusive insta-kill, and disallow it. It is a jerk of a DM who refuses to arbitrate, and instead chooses to retaliate. There is nothing to arbitrate in this case. Just as in many 'abusive' cases where a player does something creative COMPLETELY within the rules. It is a jerk of a DM who categorically and arbitrarily decides something completely legal is too powerful, or abusive and doesn't let a player take an action that may save their bacon. To use your personal description it is a jerk and completely moronic player who KNOWS they are doing something abusive and expects to get away with it consistently. once or twice.. sure. Just as with anything else, your actions while completely legal within the rules, WILL have reprecussions within the game world. That is not GM retalliation. I don't have personal ownership and am categorically not the type of GM to think that I must win and the players must lose. An NPC who is as intelligent as the player could figure this out. Thus anything aplayer uses may at some point be used against them. However, I also ensure that I explain anything nifty the NPCs do that the players could figure out. And my players ALL know that. They know the risk that if they figure out something devastating the 'secret' could get out and they self-police using it. OR in this specific case the player is CHOOSING TO DIE and then using a spell to swap out his place with someone who ISN'T necessarily supposed to die. This will categorically, without a doubt **** OFF any death deity. In a game world in which all deities take a personal, active and demostratable role in the daily activities, this is just a stupid thing to do with any regularity. Once or twice, sure, it is creative and nifty and probably beneath the notice of anyone important. You start dangling your soul in front of death and that puppy is going to start snapping at you trying to get a good grip.
Lukeal 11-08-04, 10:35 PM	How is that not the scenario? You: the helpless target you are declaring that you are not defending yourself in any way from the actions of the attacker. There is nothing in the rules that in anyway require you to defend yourself from attack. Addditional there are no rules that prevent you from making yourself the target of your own attack. You: the attacker taking a full round action to deliver a 'lethal' blow to a helpless target
sampi 11-08-04, 11:13 PM	How is that not the scenario? You: the helpless target you are declaring that you are not defending yourself in any way from the actions of the attacker. There is nothing in the rules that in anyway require you to defend yourself from attack. Addditional there are no rules that prevent you from making yourself the target of your own attack. You: the attacker taking a full round action to deliver a 'lethal' blow to a helpless target Actually, you might not HAVE to react to an attack, but your insticts do and you react involuntarily. Also, "As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe." - Notice that it says FOE, not TARGET. I wouldn't allow it.... its as stupid as making a Attack of Opportunity against yourself...
Lukeal 11-08-04, 11:37 PM	get it right: SRD3.5 pp153 Helpless Defender A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy Coup de Grace: As a full round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. From definitions at back of book: Target: the intended recipient of an attack, spell, supernatural ability, extraodinary ability, or magical effect. hmm doesn't in anyway limit you from targeting yourself. You may think it is stupid but that isn't a good reason to disallow it. Cause then I would disallow AC bonuses for armor period cause armor has NEVER made you harder to hit in the history of mankind.. it has made you harder to damage AND easier to hit (armor should give you DR and LOWER your AC) Their implementation is COMPLETELY moronic. However, my opininon of that being stupid doesn't mean that mechanic isn't still right for this game. I have done many things in games and real life that witnesses would swear were the stupidest thing they'd ever seen. didn't make them the wrong thing to be doing at the time. just meant the witnesses were too stupid to understand a genius at work.
01d55 11-09-04, 12:48 AM	A much simpler (and easier to adjucate) version of this tactic is to posses a target, and then allow your allies to attack your possesed body without opposition. They can CdG you, no question. This version has two advantages: First, your allies are certain to be prepared for an ideal CdG (i.e., a fighter, rogue, or fighter/rogue with a greatsword ready) second, it's much easier on your DM. It's always a good idea not to give your DM a unnecessarily hard time.
smrtgmp 11-09-04, 01:12 AM	Regardless of how its implamented, I really dont find the tactic to be too abusive, given the serious risk involved. Yeah, you could potentially use it to kill multiple targets, but if for some reason you are seperated from the jar by any signifigant distance, you're dead. An intelligent enemy that has been watching the PC's is likely to understand what is happening, and can takes steps to turn such tactics against them.
smrtgmp 11-09-04, 01:23 AM	Does he now? That may be true, but it's no more apparent from the posts than Ashenai's information. (In particular, he doesn't appear to claim any personal involvement with cadavers himself, but rather appears to be suggesting that Ashenai's med-student friend might have a certain type of involvement.)What I meant is his statement was not of the "my friend told me..." variety. I put little stock in those. Its nothing personal, I just dont know anybody on these boards. Granted, Keenath could be misrepresenting the truth as well. There is really no way to know for sure. It's questionable whether medieval-tech swords would be quite as sharp as modern-tech meat knives, which are optimized for the task at hand.There is no question that medieval swords/knives werent as sharp as modern blades. However, there werent any magical weapons back then either. Nor were there Dwarves. I would imagine that the weapons available in a D&D setting would be of better quality than their historical counterparts. In particular, it often wasn't desirable for the blade to be quite that sharp, since that would risk chipping when it struck metal. (Witness, for example, the relatively blunt points of bodkin---armour-piercing---arrows.) Depends on the target scenario, of course.This is quite true. In fact, the edge of a sword generally lost its shapness after the first one or two strokes. After that it was more of a thin edged club than anything else. It would also be plunged into the mid-section tip first, but the edge was rarely used to cut anything. You were much better off cracking someones skull than trying to hack off a limb. Still, historical acuracy is rarely the first priority in a D&D game, which is why the long sword is a slashing weapon. Depends on what you mean by "slit". Your arms aren't conveniently located for cutting across the front, but you could cut across the side well. You could doubtless sever some major blood vessels with little trouble, but I think it would be more difficult to do anything involving opening the trachea.By slit I mean inflict enough damage to make the wound fatal. Jests aside, I agree with you on this point. I may disagee in that I think the most appropriate D&D rules-mechanic is not CdG, but rather a "wounding" effect (rapid per-round hit point loss from bleeding), but that's because I see CdG as central nervous system destruction. (A bias I picked up when doing research for other game systems, and which may or may not actually be true in D&D.)I'm not defending CdG. All I'm saying is that it would be possible to inflict a fatal wound in the time alloted. If anything, I think a mechanic similar to the one in place for drowning would be more appropriate. i.e. you immediately fall to 0 hp and then start to die on the next round unless stabalized.
Keenath 11-09-04, 01:53 AM	Given the following statement from Keenath who has actual first hand experience with cadavers, it seems that the information presented by Ashenai regarding the difficulty of slitting ones throat may be less than accurate. YIKES! Where in the Nine Hells of Baator did you get THAT information!? It's news to ME, I'll tell you that... I don't have any firsthand experience with cadavers. I've read about what embalming does to a body (primarily because my grandmother decided to donate her body to science). But in no way does that make me an expert, or a medical student. I'm a computer programmer!
smrtgmp 11-09-04, 02:10 AM	YIKES! Where in the Nine Hells of Baator did you get THAT information!? It's news to ME, I'll tell you that... I don't have any firsthand experience with cadavers. I've read about what embalming does to a body (primarily because my grandmother decided to donate her body to science). But in no way does that make me an expert, or a medical student. I'm a computer programmer! :embarrass I apologize. I interpreted this :I'd note that, as a medical student, to mean that you were a medical student. Sorry for the confusion.
Bane 11-09-04, 11:59 AM	How about this. Research a spell that will kill you for some benefit. Such as: Obliterate Wizard/Sorcerer 9 Components: V,S Duration: Instantaneous Range: 100' radius burst centered on you Save: Fortitude partial Spell Resistance: Yes Effect: Every object and creature within 100' of you is affected by the effects of a disintegrate spell. This spell ignores line of effect, and simply vaporizes a 100' radius sphere of matter. Casting this spell consumes both the body and the soul of the caster, who may not be ressurected by any mortal means. Yeah, it sucks to be you, but it sucks to be anywhere near you too.
IMarvinTPA 11-09-04, 01:30 PM	In Ghostwalk, I saw a 1st level Cleric spell, named like "Painless Death". One willing target dies. I think that would be straight forward enough. Limited Wish can easily duplicate that spell. If you're casting Magic Jar, you're only a level or two away from Disintegrate, just shoot yourself with that! It's not like you're going to make the fortitude save (cause you chose to fail it!) 22d6+ damage should be pretty good. IMarv
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-09-04, 05:44 PM	There is no question that medieval swords/knives werent as sharp as modern blades. However, there werent any magical weapons back then either. Nor were there Dwarves. I would imagine that the weapons available in a D&D setting would be of better quality than their historical counterparts. Probably, but only due to magic and/or special materials (adamantine). Blades could be made plenty sharp in the medieval period, if the need (and money) arose. This is quite true. In fact, the edge of a sword generally lost its shapness after the first one or two strokes. After that it was more of a thin edged club than anything else. It would also be plunged into the mid-section tip first, but the edge was rarely used to cut anything. You were much better off cracking someones skull than trying to hack off a limb. I wouldn't go that far, except maybe for some extra-cheapo mass-produced blades. Even a cheap sword can still hack a limb off without tremendous difficulty, and slashing was I believe the first use of longswords (since putting a good point on them required better metallurgy than was available when the first ones were made). My point was simply that military swords weren't as optimized for slicing flesh as modern chef's knives, largely due to their different design requirements (i.e., few pork chops wear metal armour and move around). If anything, I think a mechanic similar to the one in place for drowning would be more appropriate. i.e. you immediately fall to 0 hp and then start to die on the next round unless stabalized. Not so convinced about the drowning mechanic either... :)
smrtgmp 11-09-04, 06:07 PM	I wouldn't go that far, except maybe for some extra-cheapo mass-produced blades. Even a cheap sword can still hack a limb off without tremendous difficulty, and slashing was I believe the first use of longswords (since putting a good point on them required better metallurgy than was available when the first ones were made).I'm referring to a standard issue soldier's sword. Even a leather tunic would dull the blade. That is not speculation, I know from personal research that this is true. Furthermore, it did not take a very sharp tip to ram it into someones stomach. The small surface area of a tip coupled with the force behind the thrust made it rather easy to penetrate someone's midsection. Once that was accomplished, the blade would be wrenched back and forth to cause as much internal damage as possible. It was a brutal death, to say the least. The simple fact is common mideval (european) swords didnt have good good edges. As such, they were used to hack and bludgeon an opponent (which I soppose could be concidered slashing due to the slim girth of the blade). When I think slashing, I think of something that actually cuts, rather than something that breaks the skin/bones/tissue/etc from the force of the impact. The standard "slash them in the gut and pull the blade along the wound" move that you see in the movies is historically inaccurate. Such a maneuver would be foiled by a simple tunic (unless it was your first attack since sharpening the blade). Granted, that first whack to the mid-section would likely break a rib or two, but its not going to disembowel them. Regarding the drowning mechanism, that was off the top of my head. I'm sure there would be a better way to handle it, but that was the best I could think of in a moments notice given the mechanics we have in place.
sampi 11-10-04, 06:48 PM	get it right: SRD3.5 pp153 Helpless Defender A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy Coup de Grace: As a full round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. From definitions at back of book: Target: the intended recipient of an attack, spell, supernatural ability, extraodinary ability, or magical effect. hmm doesn't in anyway limit you from targeting yourself. You may think it is stupid but that isn't a good reason to disallow it. Cause then I would disallow AC bonuses for armor period cause armor has NEVER made you harder to hit in the history of mankind.. it has made you harder to damage AND easier to hit (armor should give you DR and LOWER your AC) Their implementation is COMPLETELY moronic. However, my opininon of that being stupid doesn't mean that mechanic isn't still right for this game. I have done many things in games and real life that witnesses would swear were the stupidest thing they'd ever seen. didn't make them the wrong thing to be doing at the time. just meant the witnesses were too stupid to understand a genius at work. I'm sorry if I didn't quote right from the book. You still made my point: Coup de Grace: As a full round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. I dont need the SRD to define "opponent". Also: "As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe." It DOES say foe In addition to that: "A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier)" IMO, If you have a Dexterity of 0, you can't move and therefore cannot take actions such as moving or ATTCKING YOURSELF. So, in conclusion you [/B]cannot[/B] CdG yourself.
Starmage21 11-10-04, 06:52 PM	shoving a dagger or sword (relatively short one maybe) through your neck is impossible? Hell, thats one of my favorite strategies. Magic Jar Steal a bad guy's body Kill myself (or cast PW Kill on another bad guy while in current one, [that was funny]) Get another bad guy etc etc
Hairfoot 11-10-04, 07:09 PM	To go from zero to brain-dead in 6 seconds, you'd have to mangle your brain. Anything else would be a slow death by bleeding. Headbutting a thin, well-braced blade into your eye would do the trick, because the optic nerve goes straight through to the brain. But the orbit of the eye is made of fairly dense bone, and there are lots of other tissues in there. If the angle was off, you might just scrape out the eye socket. You can also destroy parts of the brain with little or no ill effect. I couldn't take a stab at how to handle hasty suicides in D&D, but it makes me glad they don't sell magic jars next to the peanut butter.
Starmage21 11-10-04, 07:19 PM	last time i CDG'ed "myself" It was with a longsword, and a body with 18 STR DM said a quick shove up through the chin works for a full round CDG.
Egres 11-10-04, 07:24 PM	I'm sorry if I didn't quote right from the book. You still made my point: I dont need the SRD to define "opponent". Also, I said I wouldn't allow you, you do whatever you want with your campaign but as far as I'm concerned delivering a CdG to yourself is impossible. In fact the PHB Glossary doesn't define what "opponent" means in game terms, so we could assume that you can declare that you are your opponent at the time you are CdG yourself.
sampi 11-10-04, 07:32 PM	In fact the PHB Glossary doesn't define what "opponent" means in game terms, so we could assume that you can declare that you are your opponent at the time you are CdG yourself. "As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe." It DOES say foe, not opponent. In addition to that: A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier) If you have a Dexterity of 0, you can't move and therefore cannot take actions such as moving or ATTCKING YOURSELF: Dexterity: Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can't move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks. You cannot CdG yourself because you’d have to be helpless, once you’re helpless you’re treated as if you had a dexterity score of 0 (-5 modifier) and you cannot move, therefore not being able to attack yourself. I rest my case, you CANNOT CdG yourself. :D
Egres 11-10-04, 08:54 PM	"As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe." It DOES say foe, not opponent. In addition to that: If you have a Dexterity of 0, you can't move and therefore cannot take actions such as moving or ATTCKING YOURSELF: You cannot CdG yourself because you’d have to be helpless, once you’re helpless you’re treated as if you had a dexterity score of 0 (-5 modifier) and you cannot move, therefore not being able to attack yourself. I rest my case, you CANNOT CdG yourself. :D My answer is the same: the RAW don't say anything that implies that you can't be foe of yourself. And note: being paralized doesn't mean you cannot CdG yourself. Ever heard of the Master of Unseen Hand? ;)
Kakerate 11-10-04, 09:30 PM	A self kill spell or a touch of death spell is the best if not the only way for you to commit suicide without the aid of a freind.
smrtgmp 11-10-04, 10:09 PM	Ever heard of the Master of Unseen Hand? ;)Or a psion?
sampi 11-10-04, 10:19 PM	You can ask somebody to help you or cast a spell that delivers the CdG for you, ill give you that, but you cannot really CdG yourself.
Talchar 11-11-04, 04:21 AM	Just stepping in from the rain..... What a weird subject... I hope this thread never gets published. Anyway, thinking... this sounds like a wonderful loophole, cast Magic Jar on a captive, then cast Clone. A great way, to get the body you always wanted.
Naeron 11-11-04, 05:12 AM	In addition to that: "A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier)" IMO, If you have a Dexterity of 0, you can't move and therefore cannot take actions such as moving or ATTCKING YOURSELF. So, in conclusion you [/B]cannot[/B] CdG yourself. Unfortunately "being treated as" is not the same as "has". A Helpless opponent does not actually have a dex of 0 and a Helpless opponent can take physical actions under one of the stated conditions that renders someone helpless. A Bound target is helpless, however they can still try escape artist checks to get out of the ropes. So they can take actions but are still subject to CDG.
Bane 11-11-04, 11:04 AM	Not to mention it talks about a foe who is otherwise at your mercy. I would think that you are always at your mercy.
Egres 11-11-04, 01:00 PM	You can ask somebody to help you or cast a spell that delivers the CdG for you, ill give you that, but you cannot really CdG yourself. Why?
redraven 11-11-04, 01:16 PM	As much as I would like to say that one could CdG oneself, it appears the rules do not support it. As evidence, here is the description for Death Urge (a 4th-level psionic power): You plant a hidden death-urge impulse in the subject’s unconscious. On the subject’s next turn, it looks for the quickest method to end its life and attempts to do so. The subject takes no other action on its turn except attempting to harm itself. If armed, the subject attacks itself as a full-round action. The attack automatically succeeds and deals damage as a critical hit. If unarmed, the subject moves adjacent to the nearest enemy and provokes an attack of opportunity, offering its opponent an opening, which the opponent may or may not choose to take advantage of. If the subject is unarmed and no enemy is nearby, the subject simply does nothing at all. A subject close to an immediate and lethal hazard such as a cliff or a fire might hurl itself off the cliff or into the fire instead of striking itself with a weapon. This is the closest thing we have that can be considered an "official" answer.
Egres 11-11-04, 01:23 PM	As much as I would like to say that one could CdG oneself, it appears the rules do not support it. As evidence, here is the description for Death Urge (a 4th-level psionic power): This is the closest thing we have that can be considered an "official" answer. No. This is simply a spell, and we must consider the game-balancing factor.
redraven 11-11-04, 01:39 PM	No. This is simply a spell, and we must consider the game-balancing factor. The spell causes the subject to find the quickest way to end its own life. The quickest method while armed with a weapon, according to the spell, is an auto-critical as a full-round action. While you could argue that the spell does not mention CdG for balance reasons, the arguement would merely be an assertion not backed up by any evidence. As I said, this is the closest thing we have to an "official" answer.
Egres 11-11-04, 02:16 PM	The spell causes the subject to find the quickest way to end its own life. The quickest method while armed with a weapon, according to the spell, is an auto-critical as a full-round action. While you could argue that the spell does not mention CdG for balance reasons, the arguement would merely be an assertion not backed up by any evidence. As I said, this is the closest thing we have to an "official" answer. Except that, while simply armed, he can't CdG himself actively, cause he needs to be helpless in order to be subject of a CdG.
Egres 11-11-04, 02:19 PM	The spell causes the subject to find the quickest way to end its own life. The quickest method while armed with a weapon, according to the spell, is an auto-critical as a full-round action. While you could argue that the spell does not mention CdG for balance reasons, the arguement would merely be an assertion not backed up by any evidence. As I said, this is the closest thing we have to an "official" answer. That isn't the quickest way. The "quickest way" could be a Meteor Swarm, or, speaking generally, a spell, that it's not mentioned in that psionic power. Game-Balancing reasons again.
smrtgmp 11-11-04, 02:29 PM	Game-Balancing reasons again. Concidering that it says they will hurl themselves into a deadly situation (off a cliff, into a pool of lava, etc.) I dont think thats the case.
Egres 11-11-04, 03:10 PM	Concidering that it says they will hurl themselves into a deadly situation (off a cliff, into a pool of lava, etc.) I dont think thats the case. Do you think that those situations will show up in many games? Don't forget that, as i said before, the pp doesn't allow spells, that could be the deadliest way to hurl yourself. Then, game-balancing reasons. :)
Seeker95 11-11-04, 03:57 PM	Death urge demonstrates the game rules identification of the quickest way to kill yourself. A character can automatically hit as an auto crit. No CdG. But if an auto crit doesn't do it, wait until next round and do it again.
Egres 11-11-04, 08:43 PM	Death urge demonstrates the game rules identification of the quickest way to kill yourself. A character can automatically hit as an auto crit. No CdG. But if an auto crit doesn't do it, wait until next round and do it again. ? Didn't you notice that that PP doesn't allow the target to Meteor Swarm himself?
PhaedrusXY 11-11-04, 11:04 PM	Drowning is definitely the quickest and easiest way to kill yourself in D&D, aside from targeting yourself with a Finger of Death and willingly failing the save or something. When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns. It is possible to drown in substances other than water, such as sand, quicksand, fine dust, and silos full of grain.The constitution check is to see if you can continue holding your breath. If you cannot hold your breath, or choose not to, you immediately drop to 0 hit points. On the next round, you drop to -1, and on the third round you die. So if you stick your head in a bucket of water and don't hold your breath, you'll be dead in 3 rounds, assuming your head doesn't fall out and back into the air when you become unconscious. Even if it does, you'll still be at either 0 hit points or -1. So, you can without fail drop yourself to 0 hit points in one round by drowning. And it's not like that's subdual or temporary damage, either. I hate the 3rd edition drowning rules. They are freakin ridiculous. It is also ridiculous how long you can hold your breath.
Seeker95 11-12-04, 10:34 AM	Didn't you notice that that PP doesn't allow the target to Meteor Swarm himself?And what rationalization makes you come to that conclusion? (I see neither a link nor any evidence to that conclusion.) And how does that contribute to the argument regarding CDG?
Egres 11-12-04, 12:27 PM	And what rationalization makes you come to that conclusion? (I see neither a link nor any evidence to that conclusion.) And how does that contribute to the argument regarding CDG? 1) Look at the power: You plant a hidden death-urge impulse in the subject’s unconscious. On the subject’s next turn, it looks for the quickest method to end its life and attempts to do so. The subject takes no other action on its turn except attempting to harm itself. If armed, the subject attacks itself as a full-round action. The attack automatically succeeds and deals damage as a critical hit. If unarmed, the subject moves adjacent to the nearest enemy and provokes an attack of opportunity, offering its opponent an opening, which the opponent may or may not choose to take advantage of. If the subject is unarmed and no enemy is nearby, the subject simply does nothing at all. A subject close to an immediate and lethal hazard such as a cliff or a fire might hurl itself off the cliff or into the fire instead of striking itself with a weapon. As you can see, if you are armed you attack yourself with the weapon. If you are unarmed, you must do other things, and if there are no enemies or lethal hazards you simply do nothing. This shows that you can't cast spells on yourself in order to kill yourself. 2) This shows that this power can't be considered a RAW source for an auto-CdG. The power denies the opponent one of the most dangerous way of kill himself.
sampi 11-12-04, 05:33 PM	I stand corrected, apparently you CAN deliver a CdG to yourself. This is a response from Wizard's Customer Service: Yes. Good Gaming! *Please quote this email in any reply.* **************************************** *** Chris Customer Service Department Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 **************************************** *** -----Original Message----- From: kalaka@gmail.com [mailto:kalaka@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 2:41 PM To: Wizards Customer Service Subject: Game rules question - Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten Realms Feedback Game rules question - Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten Realms Feedback From: Juan F Samper (kalaka@gmail.com) Can a character Deliver a Coup de Grace to itself? Thankyou Sent to: custserv@wizards.com
Seeker95 11-12-04, 07:17 PM	Silly sampi. I notice your question left out any content that described why this is an issue in the first place. Which means the answer you receive depends on which person in customer service answered the mailbox that morning. Since you don't explain why there is confusion, you provide no context in which customer service could frame a response. Customer service can answer your questions as a customer. This question has nothing to do with purchases.
Seeker95 11-12-04, 07:18 PM	1) Look at the power: This shows that you can't cast spells on yourself in order to kill yourself. 2) This shows that this power can't be considered a RAW source for an auto-CdG.The flaws in your argument are too numerous to begin refuting.
Egres 11-12-04, 11:26 PM	The flaws in your argument are too numerous to begin refuting. A witty saying proves nothing.... Voltaire
PhaedrusXY 11-13-04, 12:28 AM	I agree with Seeker, but if you really want to persist with this foolishness:This shows that you can't cast spells on yourself in order to kill yourself.No, it just shows that this specific power doesn't make you cast spells on yourself to kill yourself. There are other explainations. People who are controlled mentally somehow often don't act normal, and may not be able to function at full capacity. Perhaps the target of the power simply lacks the ability to use their spells. Ultimately, this proves nothing outside what this power can and cannot do. You can certainly damage yourself with your own spells.
Egres 11-13-04, 11:25 AM	No, it just shows that this specific power doesn't make you cast spells on yourself to kill yourself. Exactly my point. Ergo, this power proves nothing about the auto-CdG issue.
Loophole Hider 11-13-04, 11:42 AM	I would allow the whole CGD and fail fort save automaticly... BUT - after a few attempts (8 or higher on a 1d6(+2 per time done before) the appropriate ineveratable (defenders of things - cant spell properly) would take intrest in you... Reasoning: (for a GURPS or DnD book - cant remember) If a player comes up with a creative way of doing something, allow them to try it. It should normally work as you should reward creative and imaginative thinking, but it should only work the first few time. If throwing sand in an opponents face always blinded them for a couple of turns, then barbarians and fighters would leave their swords at home and carry bags of sand around. More of less of a quote anyway (from memory), but you get the point.
Dakkareth 11-13-04, 01:24 PM	A witty saying proves nothing.... Voltaire Cretans always lie. Epimenides the Cretan
Egres 11-13-04, 01:51 PM	Cretans always lie. Epimenides the Cretan Mortals are weak and stupid. Dakkareth sig.
IceFractal 11-13-04, 02:38 PM	CdGing yourself aside, the best way to use this tactic is with a sacrifice-spell, like this one: Body Blast Evocation [Fire] Level: Sor/Wiz ? Components: V Casting Time: 1 action Range: See text Target: Self Duration: Instantaneous Save: Reflex half SR: Partial (see text) Sacrificing their own body, this spell causes the caster's body to swell up and explode with great force. Everyone in a 10' radius takes 1d6 damage/HD (not caster level), of which half is fire damage (SR applies), and half is piercing damage from bone shrapnel (SR doesn't apply, but DR does). Everyone in a 20' radius takes 2 less dice, anyone in a 30' radius 2 less than that, and so on, until the damage reaches 1 or 2 dice. I'm not sure what level it'd be exactly, but probably not that high given that its damage is pretty low for a suicide-spell and that damage tapers off with distance. Anyway, an ideal spell for using when the body you explode isn't your own.
smrtgmp 11-13-04, 04:56 PM	I notice your question left out any content that described why this is an issue in the first place. Which means the answer you receive depends on which person in customer service answered the mailbox that morning. Since you don't explain why there is confusion, you provide no context in which customer service could frame a response. Well, it does help somewhat. Some people are saying that you cannot CdG yourself under any circumstance, regardless of time restrictions. In fact, it seems to be the most highly disputed aspect of this argument. Assuming the response provided by customer service is accurate (which is always disputable) than it would be possible to administer a CdG to yourself. I agree that (s)he should have provided more information in his question, however.