Item Creation & Craft Pool - Cost Confusion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Item Creation & Craft Pool - Cost Confusion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OzyBurrfoot
04-03-06, 12:49 PM Ok, so I'm not actually running a Mark of Heroes game, but I am using the rules for Artificers and their craft pools, (the taking the craft/xp pool and turning it into x5 gold) so what I'm confused on is how these stack with each other.

- Item Creation Feats - reduces item costs by 25%

- Extraodinary Artisan - reduces all item costs down to 50%

ok so we know how they stack, but what about this one?

- Tools of War(RoE) - reduces arms & armor costs by 25%

What if the player has all of these and wants to make a magical sword? Does he pay 50% or 25% of the cost?
Frobi-Wan Kenobi
04-03-06, 02:15 PM If you want to have it be 25% in your home game that's up to you but according to the MoH CS nothing can drop the savings past 50% (like Scribing to a Caster's Shield, etc.).

I think it's in the Fullplay Feats section of the document under Extraordinary Artisan.
OzyBurrfoot
04-03-06, 02:30 PM Yeah, but per one of the card things the Warforged Artificer Racial Replacement Levels are available, so how would you work this out? Or is it just tough cookies if you have both?
Randall Montgomery
04-05-06, 10:21 AM - Tools of War(RoE) - reduces arms & armor costs by 25%

What if the player has all of these and wants to make a magical sword? Does he pay 50% or 25% of the cost?

I play a Warforged Artificer in MoH myself, so I'm familiar with your dilemma. First off, though, your discription of Tools of War is inaccurate. The strict wording of the ability says that for every 1 point of craft reserve you spend on a weapon, armor, or construct, it counts as 2 XP; it has nothing to do with actually lowering the cost of the weapon by any percentage. Now, since all item creation in MoH is based on lowered cost percentages instead of XP, the way I've done it is to simply double the gold an artificer has in his craft reserve whenever he uses it to make a weapon, armor, or construct.

As an example, my 5th level Warforged Artificer has a craft reserve of 100, which in MoH translates to an extra 500 GP for crafting. If I want to use that to craft an Armblade, which costs 1,150 to craft with the Extraordinary Artisan feat, the craft reserve would actually be worth 1,000 GP thanks to tools of war, so I would only have to pay 150 GP out of pocket. Keep in mind this is not official, just my best interpretation, so your milage may vary. Hope this helps!
Frobi-Wan Kenobi
04-05-06, 10:37 AM As an example, my 5th level Warforged Artificer has a craft reserve of 100, which in MoH translates to an extra 500 GP for crafting. If I want to use that to craft an Armblade, which costs 1,150 to craft with the Extraordinary Artisan feat, the craft reserve would actually be worth 1,000 GP thanks to tools of war, so I would only have to pay 150 GP out of pocket. Keep in mind this is not official, just my best interpretation, so your milage may vary. Hope this helps!

Your use of Craft Reserve in MoH is inaccurate. It doesn't simply get added to your EV and you have to use it like you crafted those items at that specific level. So you can't say that you'll pay 1000 from you craft reserve then 150 out of pocket - it's either under the amount of craft reserve for that level or your have to spend your EV to get the item.

I haven't yet found a combination of items to use exactly the amount of Craft Reserve my artificer has. Usually I have 17, 5 or 18 GPs left over that I have lost per the campaign standards.

Rob
OzyBurrfoot
04-05-06, 01:44 PM Where are you getting that you cant spend the gold from your craft pool in conjunction with your regular EV gold? The section on Craft Reserve doesnt mention this.

Ok, so I was wrong as far as the way Tools of War worked, but with the way I was thinking it worked out the same anyways. I think I'm going to let it slide and allow him to use it to buy arms&armor stuff fairly cheap as he did focus his character around that quite a bit. If it proves to be an issue, I'll just kill the character, LOL... :plotting:

Thanks y'all for the help, hopefully the game will go smoothly from here on out.

As a side note, something I'm trying is allowing him to keep the Retain Essence class feature and just translating any item's xp that he drains into 5gp/1xp into his current craft pool. It's nice for disabling magic traps and draining magic out of other people's stuff without having to actually steal said items.

"Why wont this damn wand work anymore??" :thinks:
Randall Montgomery
04-05-06, 02:28 PM Your use of Craft Reserve in MoH is inaccurate. It doesn't simply get added to your EV and you have to use it like you crafted those items at that specific level. So you can't say that you'll pay 1000 from you craft reserve then 150 out of pocket - it's either under the amount of craft reserve for that level or your have to spend your EV to get the item.

I actually haven't gotten to read the new campaign standards yet due to some computer difficulties that have only recently been rectified, but if that is indeed how it works, than Tools of War is now nearly worthless. Since it specifically states that it only works on weapons, armor, and constructs, there's absolutely nothing you could create with it that would be under the craft reserve. I suppose I'll have to get off my butt and look this up, but till now it hasn't been an issue (I just got CMA&A last adventure, so ToW has been unusuable till now).
Frobi-Wan Kenobi
04-05-06, 02:38 PM Where are you getting that you cant spend the gold from your craft pool in conjunction with your regular EV gold? The section on Craft Reserve doesnt mention this.

This does take a little thinking to figure out as page 8 of the CS doesn't spell it out very clearly. If you take the last sentence of the Craft Reserve Section where it says: "Gold not spent from the Craft Reserve is lost." By using Randall's method of lumping the Craft Reserve with your EV this sentence would be pointless. Another agrument for the seperation of Craft Reserve and EV is the example that is used regarding the number and level of scrolls bought at first level. If it said one first level scroll and most of a second first level scroll Randall would be correct.

As a side note, something I'm trying is allowing him to keep the Retain Essence class feature and just translating any item's xp that he drains into 5gp/1xp into his current craft pool. It's nice for disabling magic traps and draining magic out of other people's stuff without having to actually steal said items.

I don't have the book in front of me but I know that you have to have the item that you want to Retain Essence on around you for a 24 hour period the part I'm unsure of is if you have to have contact with it or not. If so then your fighter might be a little worried if you keep touching his sword. As for Magic traps sure you could it to get ride of traps but 24 hours is a lot of time for your party to guard you.

During my time DMing Eberron, especially Mark of Heroes, its been surprising how many people misinterpret the artificer's abilities. If I had a buck for how many strange faces I get when I ask the Artificer has brought the correct material components for their infusions most simply state that Artificers aren't spellcasters. Then when I ask them to flip to the Magic section of the ECS to confirm their statement they stare wide eyed for about a minute hastely flipping through the pages to see what else they've missed.
OzyBurrfoot
04-05-06, 03:35 PM I still dont agree with your interpretation of what it says about the craft pool. I'm not saying you can add your craft pool to your EV, but the other way around, thats the difference. Even if thats not what they mean, I still plan on using it that way.

As for the Retain Essence feature, if it really does say something about having to hold/fondle/carry the item for 24hrs, I'm going to house rule that to a shorter time, I like the idea of artificers being ultimate magical trap disablers.

To be honest, short of highly expensive components, I never worry about them, even for normal spellcasters as thats just too much book keeping for our style of play. Now if a situation came up that they were imprisoned and stripped of their stuff, then I'd make an issue of it.
Frobi-Wan Kenobi
04-05-06, 04:33 PM I still dont agree with your interpretation of what it says about the craft pool. I'm not saying you can add your craft pool to your EV, but the other way around, thats the difference. Even if thats not what they mean, I still plan on using it that way.

Like I said in my first response if this is your home game then that's up to you. As for my interpretation look at the example of how the Craft Reserve is explained on page 8. With only Scribe Scroll the cost for a 1st level scroll is 94 gp and the cost for a 0 level scroll is only 47 gp which is how they came up with the 1 1st or 2 0 level example. But hey, if I'm wrong it won't be the first time and won't be the last either, maybe, so for those MoH players that need to know email Dispel Confusion and hope for an answer before the campaign ends in 9 months.

As for the Retain Essence feature, if it really does say something about having to hold/fondle/carry the item for 24hrs, I'm going to house rule that to a shorter time, I like the idea of artificers being ultimate magical trap disablers.

For a home game that's cool - just make sure to let the party know that the Disable Device skill has been trumped by the Retain Essence ability so characters with Trapfinding don't put ranks into a skill that is no longer as useful.

To be honest, short of highly expensive components, I never worry about them, even for normal spellcasters as thats just too much book keeping for our style of play. Now if a situation came up that they were imprisoned and stripped of their stuff, then I'd make an issue of it.

I've never told anyone that they can't use those Infusions 'cause they didn't have them listed on their sheets (and remember that they are consumable so that 100 gp oil in really 500 gp) but asked them to try to remember the next time that they play.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OzyBurrfoot 04-03-06, 12:49 PM	Ok, so I'm not actually running a Mark of Heroes game, but I am using the rules for Artificers and their craft pools, (the taking the craft/xp pool and turning it into x5 gold) so what I'm confused on is how these stack with each other. - Item Creation Feats - reduces item costs by 25% - Extraodinary Artisan - reduces all item costs down to 50% ok so we know how they stack, but what about this one? - Tools of War(RoE) - reduces arms & armor costs by 25% What if the player has all of these and wants to make a magical sword? Does he pay 50% or 25% of the cost?
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 04-03-06, 02:15 PM	If you want to have it be 25% in your home game that's up to you but according to the MoH CS nothing can drop the savings past 50% (like Scribing to a Caster's Shield, etc.). I think it's in the Fullplay Feats section of the document under Extraordinary Artisan.
OzyBurrfoot 04-03-06, 02:30 PM	Yeah, but per one of the card things the Warforged Artificer Racial Replacement Levels are available, so how would you work this out? Or is it just tough cookies if you have both?
Randall Montgomery 04-05-06, 10:21 AM	- Tools of War(RoE) - reduces arms & armor costs by 25% What if the player has all of these and wants to make a magical sword? Does he pay 50% or 25% of the cost? I play a Warforged Artificer in MoH myself, so I'm familiar with your dilemma. First off, though, your discription of Tools of War is inaccurate. The strict wording of the ability says that for every 1 point of craft reserve you spend on a weapon, armor, or construct, it counts as 2 XP; it has nothing to do with actually lowering the cost of the weapon by any percentage. Now, since all item creation in MoH is based on lowered cost percentages instead of XP, the way I've done it is to simply double the gold an artificer has in his craft reserve whenever he uses it to make a weapon, armor, or construct. As an example, my 5th level Warforged Artificer has a craft reserve of 100, which in MoH translates to an extra 500 GP for crafting. If I want to use that to craft an Armblade, which costs 1,150 to craft with the Extraordinary Artisan feat, the craft reserve would actually be worth 1,000 GP thanks to tools of war, so I would only have to pay 150 GP out of pocket. Keep in mind this is not official, just my best interpretation, so your milage may vary. Hope this helps!
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 04-05-06, 10:37 AM	As an example, my 5th level Warforged Artificer has a craft reserve of 100, which in MoH translates to an extra 500 GP for crafting. If I want to use that to craft an Armblade, which costs 1,150 to craft with the Extraordinary Artisan feat, the craft reserve would actually be worth 1,000 GP thanks to tools of war, so I would only have to pay 150 GP out of pocket. Keep in mind this is not official, just my best interpretation, so your milage may vary. Hope this helps! Your use of Craft Reserve in MoH is inaccurate. It doesn't simply get added to your EV and you have to use it like you crafted those items at that specific level. So you can't say that you'll pay 1000 from you craft reserve then 150 out of pocket - it's either under the amount of craft reserve for that level or your have to spend your EV to get the item. I haven't yet found a combination of items to use exactly the amount of Craft Reserve my artificer has. Usually I have 17, 5 or 18 GPs left over that I have lost per the campaign standards. Rob
OzyBurrfoot 04-05-06, 01:44 PM	Where are you getting that you cant spend the gold from your craft pool in conjunction with your regular EV gold? The section on Craft Reserve doesnt mention this. Ok, so I was wrong as far as the way Tools of War worked, but with the way I was thinking it worked out the same anyways. I think I'm going to let it slide and allow him to use it to buy arms&armor stuff fairly cheap as he did focus his character around that quite a bit. If it proves to be an issue, I'll just kill the character, LOL... :plotting: Thanks y'all for the help, hopefully the game will go smoothly from here on out. As a side note, something I'm trying is allowing him to keep the Retain Essence class feature and just translating any item's xp that he drains into 5gp/1xp into his current craft pool. It's nice for disabling magic traps and draining magic out of other people's stuff without having to actually steal said items. "Why wont this damn wand work anymore??" :thinks:
Randall Montgomery 04-05-06, 02:28 PM	Your use of Craft Reserve in MoH is inaccurate. It doesn't simply get added to your EV and you have to use it like you crafted those items at that specific level. So you can't say that you'll pay 1000 from you craft reserve then 150 out of pocket - it's either under the amount of craft reserve for that level or your have to spend your EV to get the item. I actually haven't gotten to read the new campaign standards yet due to some computer difficulties that have only recently been rectified, but if that is indeed how it works, than Tools of War is now nearly worthless. Since it specifically states that it only works on weapons, armor, and constructs, there's absolutely nothing you could create with it that would be under the craft reserve. I suppose I'll have to get off my butt and look this up, but till now it hasn't been an issue (I just got CMA&A last adventure, so ToW has been unusuable till now).
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 04-05-06, 02:38 PM	Where are you getting that you cant spend the gold from your craft pool in conjunction with your regular EV gold? The section on Craft Reserve doesnt mention this. This does take a little thinking to figure out as page 8 of the CS doesn't spell it out very clearly. If you take the last sentence of the Craft Reserve Section where it says: "Gold not spent from the Craft Reserve is lost." By using Randall's method of lumping the Craft Reserve with your EV this sentence would be pointless. Another agrument for the seperation of Craft Reserve and EV is the example that is used regarding the number and level of scrolls bought at first level. If it said one first level scroll and most of a second first level scroll Randall would be correct. As a side note, something I'm trying is allowing him to keep the Retain Essence class feature and just translating any item's xp that he drains into 5gp/1xp into his current craft pool. It's nice for disabling magic traps and draining magic out of other people's stuff without having to actually steal said items. I don't have the book in front of me but I know that you have to have the item that you want to Retain Essence on around you for a 24 hour period the part I'm unsure of is if you have to have contact with it or not. If so then your fighter might be a little worried if you keep touching his sword. As for Magic traps sure you could it to get ride of traps but 24 hours is a lot of time for your party to guard you. During my time DMing Eberron, especially Mark of Heroes, its been surprising how many people misinterpret the artificer's abilities. If I had a buck for how many strange faces I get when I ask the Artificer has brought the correct material components for their infusions most simply state that Artificers aren't spellcasters. Then when I ask them to flip to the Magic section of the ECS to confirm their statement they stare wide eyed for about a minute hastely flipping through the pages to see what else they've missed.
OzyBurrfoot 04-05-06, 03:35 PM	I still dont agree with your interpretation of what it says about the craft pool. I'm not saying you can add your craft pool to your EV, but the other way around, thats the difference. Even if thats not what they mean, I still plan on using it that way. As for the Retain Essence feature, if it really does say something about having to hold/fondle/carry the item for 24hrs, I'm going to house rule that to a shorter time, I like the idea of artificers being ultimate magical trap disablers. To be honest, short of highly expensive components, I never worry about them, even for normal spellcasters as thats just too much book keeping for our style of play. Now if a situation came up that they were imprisoned and stripped of their stuff, then I'd make an issue of it.
Frobi-Wan Kenobi 04-05-06, 04:33 PM	I still dont agree with your interpretation of what it says about the craft pool. I'm not saying you can add your craft pool to your EV, but the other way around, thats the difference. Even if thats not what they mean, I still plan on using it that way. Like I said in my first response if this is your home game then that's up to you. As for my interpretation look at the example of how the Craft Reserve is explained on page 8. With only Scribe Scroll the cost for a 1st level scroll is 94 gp and the cost for a 0 level scroll is only 47 gp which is how they came up with the 1 1st or 2 0 level example. But hey, if I'm wrong it won't be the first time and won't be the last either, maybe, so for those MoH players that need to know email Dispel Confusion and hope for an answer before the campaign ends in 9 months. As for the Retain Essence feature, if it really does say something about having to hold/fondle/carry the item for 24hrs, I'm going to house rule that to a shorter time, I like the idea of artificers being ultimate magical trap disablers. For a home game that's cool - just make sure to let the party know that the Disable Device skill has been trumped by the Retain Essence ability so characters with Trapfinding don't put ranks into a skill that is no longer as useful. To be honest, short of highly expensive components, I never worry about them, even for normal spellcasters as thats just too much book keeping for our style of play. Now if a situation came up that they were imprisoned and stripped of their stuff, then I'd make an issue of it. I've never told anyone that they can't use those Infusions 'cause they didn't have them listed on their sheets (and remember that they are consumable so that 100 gp oil in really 500 gp) but asked them to try to remember the next time that they play.