1001 Monsters designed to break the CR system [Archive] - Wizards Community

1001 Monsters designed to break the CR system [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Light_Colonel
06-12-07, 12:29 PM One of my favorite pastimes (at least when I have nothing else to do :embarrass ) is to create utterly broken monsters. Monsters that you could look at your party and say with a straight face: "Gee guys, it's only a CR (< party level) monster, quit being such crybabies".

Not that I *would* actually do that, however it is hilarious to think about.

In keeping with that spirit of using the NPC/Monster Rules, show me the broken!

I have a very tame entry for my first, it doesn't even exploit class level issues or anything.

1.

Huge Giant (Air, Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 17d8+119 + 54d8+972 (1410 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 34 (–2 size, +2 Dex, +20 natural, +4 mithril chain shirt), touch 10, flat-footed 32
Base Attack/Grapple: +52/+73
Attack: Gargantuan +4 morningstar +67 melee (4d6+23) or slam +63 melee (1d6+13) or rock +52 ranged (2d8+13)
Full Attack: Gargantuan +4 morningstar +67/+62/+57/+52 melee (4d6+23) or 2 slams +63 melee (1d6+13) or rock +52 ranged (2d8+13)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, oversized weapon, rock catching, scent, alternate form, empathy
Saves: Fort +46, Ref +36, Will +30
Abilities: Str 36, Dex 14, Con 24, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 13
Skills: Climb +25, Craft (any one) +13, Diplomacy +13, Intimidate +13, Listen +85, Perform (stringed instrument) +13, Sense Motive +16, Spot +85
Feats: Fast Healing (x2), Great Constitution, Great Dexterity, Great Strength, Iron Will, Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Endurance, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (Bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor (x6), Improved Natural Attack (bite), Power Attack, Run, Improved Toughness, Skill Focus (Spot), Skill Focus (Listen), Track, Trample
Environment: Temperate mountains
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: —

Gargantuan Giant (Air, Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 17d8+119 + 54d8+972 (1410 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 26 (–4 size, +3 Dex, +17 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +52/+92
Attack: Bite +76 melee (3d8+42)
Full Attack: Bite +76 melee (3d8+42)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole, curse of lycanthropy
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, oversized weapon, rock catching, scent, alternate form, empathy, dr 10/silver
Saves: Fort +56, Ref +37, Will +30
Abilities: Str 66, Dex 16, Con 44, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 13
Skills: Climb +40, Craft (any one) +13, Diplomacy +13, Intimidate +13, Listen +85, Perform (stringed instrument) +13, Sense Motive +16, Spot +85

Gargantuan Giant (Air, Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 17d8+119 + 54d8+972 (1410 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 29 (–4 size, +3 Dex, +20 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 26
Base Attack/Grapple: +52/+92
Attack: Bite +76 melee (3d8+42) or Gargantuan +4 morningstar +80 melee (4d6+46)
Full Attack: Gargantuan +4 morningstar +80/+75/+70/+65 melee (4d6+46) and Bite +71 melee (3d8+14) OR 2 claws +76 melee (2d6+28) and Bite +71 melee (3d8+14)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole, curse of lycanthropy
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, oversized weapon, rock catching, scent, alternate form, empathy, dr 10/silver
Saves: Fort +56, Ref +37, Will +30
Abilities: Str 66, Dex 16, Con 44, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 13
Skills: Climb +40, Craft (any one) +13, Diplomacy +13, Intimidate +13, Listen +85, Perform (stringed instrument) +13, Sense Motive +16, Spot +85

Combat
Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is 140 feet for thrown rocks.
Oversized Weapon (Ex): Caelum wields a great, two-handed morningstar (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty.
Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 15th.
3/day - levitate (self plus 2,000 pounds), obscuring mist;
1/day - fog cloud.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Caelum must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.
Swallow Whole (Ex): Caelum can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from his gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.
Caelum’s gizzard can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents.
Skills: Caelum has a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
Hellsbells
06-12-07, 12:37 PM So is the point to make monsters that seem weak but are strong, that are strong but seem weak, or am i just missing the point completely?
Warforged Goblin
06-12-07, 01:58 PM Simply lovely. I think I have an idea that may not break the rules:

2.) Start with an orc - CR 1/2
Give it the Lycanthrope Template (Let's use a Dire Wolverine) - +3 CR
Give it Half-Fiend Template, which makes its type Outsider - +1 CR

So far we're looking at a Challenge Rating 4 Were-Dire Wolverine Half-Fiend Orc with approximately 8 hit points. I sure hope it wins Initiative...
Light_Colonel
06-12-07, 02:01 PM So is the point to make monsters that seem weak but are strong, that are strong but seem weak, or am i just missing the point completely?

No the point is to use the rules as written, and abuse them. For monsters. As in my above example, there is no realistic way a 71 HD monster is CR 17. The reason it is CR 17 is because the CR rules say when adding the Lycanthrope template it is only +6 CR for 21+ HD base animals....

So, I maxxed out a T-Rex to 54 HD, then used that as the base animal. Wrong? Yes. Legal? Yes.
RealSorceror
06-12-07, 02:14 PM An intelligent swarm that can cast Creeping Doom or a similair spell to summon swarms. :plotting:

Then it becomes a Hivemind as outlined in the BoVD, where the number of creatures is equal to it's hp. With enough hp, it gains Sorceror caster levels.

Have it continue to Summon Swarm until its caster level is stupididly retarded, and have fun. :evillaugh
Light_Colonel
06-12-07, 02:28 PM Simply lovely. I think I have an idea that may not break the rules:

2.) Start with an orc - CR 1/2
Give it the Lycanthrope Template (Let's use a Dire Wolverine) - +3 CR
Give it Half-Fiend Template, which makes its type Outsider - +1 CR+2

So far we're looking at a Challenge Rating 4 Were-Dire Wolverine Half-Fiend Orc with approximately 8 hit points. I sure hope it wins Initiative...

Actually he is a lot nastier than that. First his CR would 5, since the Wolverine is 5 HD, which adds to the Orcs total. So at 6 HD Half Fiend adds +2 CR. Still he is looking really nasty with a few spell like abilities, flight and while in Hybrid or Animal form a nasty looking set of stats:
Str 34, Dex 21, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 8

His average Hit points, assuming no switcharounds or other abuses, would be:
{1d8+2}+{5d8+33} (62 hp) (75 while raging)

In animal form he is taking two claws at +16 melee (1d4+12) and a bite +11 for 1d6+6; not all that bad really. On top of that he has DR 10/Silver and DR 5/Magic.

I also think the CR 1/2 of his initial Orc level would have to brought up, either by adding a second level of Warrior, or by replacing the Warrior level with a Barb level. Using option one gives him an extra BAB and another 7 HP. Option 2 only gives him 2 More HP, but it would allow him to utilise Double Rage action, by Using his rage class feature, then shift into animal form and get hit and rage from that; that then gives him an extra 24 HP and an extra 4 to hit.

Overall he would end up having to be CR 6, but I think he would make the average CR 6 party very upset.
snakeman830
06-12-07, 02:47 PM No the point is to use the rules as written, and abuse them. For monsters. As in my above example, there is no realistic way a 71 HD monster is CR 17. The reason it is CR 17 is because the CR rules say when adding the Lycanthrope template it is only +6 CR for 21+ HD base animals....

So, I maxxed out a T-Rex to 54 HD, then used that as the base animal. Wrong? Yes. Legal? Yes.

I love it.

This one is a little more interesting. I used the Paragon Creature template from ELH:

Paragon Thri-keen
Medium Monsterous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 2D8 +40 (56hp)
Initiative: +10
Speed: 120 feet
AC: 50 (+10 Dex, +5 natural, +12 insight, +12 luck) Touch:45, Flat-footed: 40
BAB/Grapple: +2/+35 (remember, grapples count as attacks)
Attack: Claw + 35 melee (1D6 + 28) or longspear + 35 melee (1D8 +28/*3) or javelin +36 ranged (1D6 + 28)
Full attack: 4 claws + 35 melee (1D6 +28) and bite +33 melee (1D4 + 24 plus poison)
Space/reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, poison, Psi-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 10/Epic, Darkvision 60ft, Fast Healing 20, Immunity to sleep, leap, Resist Fire 10, Cold 10, Spell Resistance 41
Saves: Fort: +18, Ref +23, Will +22
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 30, Con 26, Int 23, Wis 27, Cha 22
Skills: Balance +27, Climb + 23, Hide +25*, Jump + 87, Listen + 23, Spot +23
Feats: Deflect Arrows(b), Improved Natural Attack (claw)(b), Multiattack
CR: 16

Spell-like abilities: 3/Day- Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, See Invisibility. Caster level 15th

Poison: Fortitude DC 19. Initial Damge: 1D6 Dex, Secondary Damage: Paralysis

Psi-like abilities: 3/Day- Chameleon, Know Direction and Location. 1/Day- Psionic Displacement, Metaphysical Claw. Manifester level 16th

Natural weapons are treated as Epic for overcoming DR.

With that AC, fast healing, DR, speed, saves, and damage output, I don't think he's really a CR 16.
dman11235
06-12-07, 05:13 PM Just a note, the +25 doesn't apply to grapples, just the attack roll to initiate it. And a couple nit picks, the jump is +88, and the AC is 49. Not like it matters!
souldragon_420
06-12-07, 05:28 PM Any high HD monster with the psuedo natural template from the ELH is insanely broken in my opion since they get 5x there HD as SR and more tentacles the more HD they have and to top it all off the more HD the base creature has the less the template increases its CR.

I know this from experince where a DM got on a psuedonatural kick in an epic campaign and it ended abrutly when 2 psuedonatural gray renders turned a party of 6 lvl 27 characters to hamburger in about 4 or 5 rounds with us so much as scrathing them and they were only a CR 20 encounter.
Hellsbells
06-14-07, 07:42 PM Add chimeric to any great wyrm dragon (don't have books on me so not sure if its legal but lets asume it is) and its already broken..... Alternitavly just give a max HD T-rex the half dragon template...
Lionhearted
06-14-07, 07:58 PM Add chimeric to any great wyrm dragon (don't have books on me so not sure if its legal but lets asume it is) and its already broken..... Alternitavly just give a max HD T-rex the half dragon template...

Actually a max HD t-rex is CR 24 .. and a Half-dragon Maxed T-rex is cr 26
I don't think he compares to a Great wyrm gold dragon ;)
cog_n_taz
06-14-07, 08:22 PM Dragon turtle, especially in 3.0:P

No, seriously, go back to your MM/SRD, and look at that thing.
runestar
06-15-07, 12:12 AM A lot of monsters in the MM tend to have filler feats such as alertness and toughness. Thus, just by "optimizing" their feat choice, they can be made more challenging than they already are. For example, all instances of toughness should be replaced with improved toughness. Swap in quicken SLA whenever possible, so the monster gets more actions each round.

Also, hide armour is inferior to chain shirt or breastplate, so it is your pick as to whether you want better speed or more AC. Give them gear appropriate for their wealth guidelines. The improvement is fairly noticeable.

For example, take the hill giant. Replace its feats with power attack, leap attack, shock trooper, improved bull rush and perhaps weapon focus or improved initiative. Replace hide armour with chain shirt for better speed. Have it buff up with bull's str. It can do enough damage to take down a fighter in 1 charge.

Will of the wisp: give it improved flyby attack. With its high AC and immunities, it can afford to play hit-and-run with the entire party 24/7 given its high fly speed. Better hope the mage has tons of magic missiles.

The lycantrope template's cr is also noticeably broken, especially for higher HD animals (since the cr increase is lower than the cr of the actual animal itself). In a more extreme case, a were-battletitan commoner1 is just cr7, while the battletitan dinosaur is a hefty cr16 itself...:cool:

Take the balor from MM, and give it extraordinary concentration. It can now maintain implosion as a move action, followed with a quickened telekinesis or greater dispelling, and use a 3rd SLA as a standard action (typically blasphemy). All this while its summoned balor is in the thick of battle).

Likewise, give the barbed devil quicken SLA: scorching ray to improve its damage output. The horned devil has improved sunder, which is useless since it cannot sunder with its spiked chain, so you should swap it out for quicken SLA: fireball or lightning bolt. Its stats make it a fairly good tripper, so you might consider bringing in expertise, improved trip and perhaps even improved disarm as well. The pit fiend can be a TPK if used correctly on an unsuspecting party (have it use wish to replicate AMF, charge into battle, grapple a rogue or wizard, fly away and bite them repeatedly until its poison kicks in, then repeat the whole sequence)

A spider swarm is typically taken down by fire at lower lvs. Slap on the half red-dragon template and watch as your PCs squirm as they try to find a way to overcome it (as of the moment, I know of no way in which a cr3 party can garner the resources to defeat one).

The tarrasque is perhaps the most iconic, with the eyesore that is its 6 toughness feats. Replace them with improved toughness, multiattack, perhaps stand still and maybe even some of the CW combat feats. I am not sure if improved crit stacks with augmented crit or not though. A threat range of 15-20 is pretty scary...but do note that the half-fiend template is not as good as some people are making it out to be, since a fly speed of 20-ft is not as scary as some might like to believe.

Also, though I am not familiar with ToB, I have heard that the classes can be quite broken when combined with monster HD, due to the way initiator lv is determined. The CO boards once mentioned that they could create a cr17 challenge that proved to be extremely tough for a lv20 party to take on. To whet your appetite, consider the choker with 4 lvs of crusader.:D

More may come, depending on what I can dig up, both from the boards here and my memory.:)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Light_Colonel 06-12-07, 12:29 PM	One of my favorite pastimes (at least when I have nothing else to do :embarrass ) is to create utterly broken monsters. Monsters that you could look at your party and say with a straight face: "Gee guys, it's only a CR (< party level) monster, quit being such crybabies". Not that I would actually do that, however it is hilarious to think about. In keeping with that spirit of using the NPC/Monster Rules, show me the broken! I have a very tame entry for my first, it doesn't even exploit class level issues or anything. 1. Huge Giant (Air, Shapechanger) Hit Dice: 17d8+119 + 54d8+972 (1410 hp) Initiative: +6 Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares) Armor Class: 34 (–2 size, +2 Dex, +20 natural, +4 mithril chain shirt), touch 10, flat-footed 32 Base Attack/Grapple: +52/+73 Attack: Gargantuan +4 morningstar +67 melee (4d6+23) or slam +63 melee (1d6+13) or rock +52 ranged (2d8+13) Full Attack: Gargantuan +4 morningstar +67/+62/+57/+52 melee (4d6+23) or 2 slams +63 melee (1d6+13) or rock +52 ranged (2d8+13) Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft. Special Attacks: Rock throwing, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Low-light vision, oversized weapon, rock catching, scent, alternate form, empathy Saves: Fort +46, Ref +36, Will +30 Abilities: Str 36, Dex 14, Con 24, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 13 Skills: Climb +25, Craft (any one) +13, Diplomacy +13, Intimidate +13, Listen +85, Perform (stringed instrument) +13, Sense Motive +16, Spot +85 Feats: Fast Healing (x2), Great Constitution, Great Dexterity, Great Strength, Iron Will, Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Endurance, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (Bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor (x6), Improved Natural Attack (bite), Power Attack, Run, Improved Toughness, Skill Focus (Spot), Skill Focus (Listen), Track, Trample Environment: Temperate mountains Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 17 Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items Alignment: Always chaotic evil Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: — Gargantuan Giant (Air, Shapechanger) Hit Dice: 17d8+119 + 54d8+972 (1410 hp) Initiative: +7 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 26 (–4 size, +3 Dex, +17 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 23 Base Attack/Grapple: +52/+92 Attack: Bite +76 melee (3d8+42) Full Attack: Bite +76 melee (3d8+42) Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft. Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole, curse of lycanthropy Special Qualities: Low-light vision, oversized weapon, rock catching, scent, alternate form, empathy, dr 10/silver Saves: Fort +56, Ref +37, Will +30 Abilities: Str 66, Dex 16, Con 44, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 13 Skills: Climb +40, Craft (any one) +13, Diplomacy +13, Intimidate +13, Listen +85, Perform (stringed instrument) +13, Sense Motive +16, Spot +85 Gargantuan Giant (Air, Shapechanger) Hit Dice: 17d8+119 + 54d8+972 (1410 hp) Initiative: +7 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 29 (–4 size, +3 Dex, +20 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 26 Base Attack/Grapple: +52/+92 Attack: Bite +76 melee (3d8+42) or Gargantuan +4 morningstar +80 melee (4d6+46) Full Attack: Gargantuan +4 morningstar +80/+75/+70/+65 melee (4d6+46) and Bite +71 melee (3d8+14) OR 2 claws +76 melee (2d6+28) and Bite +71 melee (3d8+14) Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft. Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole, curse of lycanthropy Special Qualities: Low-light vision, oversized weapon, rock catching, scent, alternate form, empathy, dr 10/silver Saves: Fort +56, Ref +37, Will +30 Abilities: Str 66, Dex 16, Con 44, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 13 Skills: Climb +40, Craft (any one) +13, Diplomacy +13, Intimidate +13, Listen +85, Perform (stringed instrument) +13, Sense Motive +16, Spot +85 Combat Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is 140 feet for thrown rocks. Oversized Weapon (Ex): Caelum wields a great, two-handed morningstar (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty. Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 15th. 3/day - levitate (self plus 2,000 pounds), obscuring mist; 1/day - fog cloud. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Caelum must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round. Swallow Whole (Ex): Caelum can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from his gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. Caelum’s gizzard can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents. Skills: Caelum has a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
Hellsbells 06-12-07, 12:37 PM	So is the point to make monsters that seem weak but are strong, that are strong but seem weak, or am i just missing the point completely?
Warforged Goblin 06-12-07, 01:58 PM	Simply lovely. I think I have an idea that may not break the rules: 2.) Start with an orc - CR 1/2 Give it the Lycanthrope Template (Let's use a Dire Wolverine) - +3 CR Give it Half-Fiend Template, which makes its type Outsider - +1 CR So far we're looking at a Challenge Rating 4 Were-Dire Wolverine Half-Fiend Orc with approximately 8 hit points. I sure hope it wins Initiative...
Light_Colonel 06-12-07, 02:01 PM	So is the point to make monsters that seem weak but are strong, that are strong but seem weak, or am i just missing the point completely? No the point is to use the rules as written, and abuse them. For monsters. As in my above example, there is no realistic way a 71 HD monster is CR 17. The reason it is CR 17 is because the CR rules say when adding the Lycanthrope template it is only +6 CR for 21+ HD base animals.... So, I maxxed out a T-Rex to 54 HD, then used that as the base animal. Wrong? Yes. Legal? Yes.
RealSorceror 06-12-07, 02:14 PM	An intelligent swarm that can cast Creeping Doom or a similair spell to summon swarms. :plotting: Then it becomes a Hivemind as outlined in the BoVD, where the number of creatures is equal to it's hp. With enough hp, it gains Sorceror caster levels. Have it continue to Summon Swarm until its caster level is stupididly retarded, and have fun. :evillaugh
Light_Colonel 06-12-07, 02:28 PM	Simply lovely. I think I have an idea that may not break the rules: 2.) Start with an orc - CR 1/2 Give it the Lycanthrope Template (Let's use a Dire Wolverine) - +3 CR Give it Half-Fiend Template, which makes its type Outsider - +1 CR+2 So far we're looking at a Challenge Rating 4 Were-Dire Wolverine Half-Fiend Orc with approximately 8 hit points. I sure hope it wins Initiative... Actually he is a lot nastier than that. First his CR would 5, since the Wolverine is 5 HD, which adds to the Orcs total. So at 6 HD Half Fiend adds +2 CR. Still he is looking really nasty with a few spell like abilities, flight and while in Hybrid or Animal form a nasty looking set of stats: Str 34, Dex 21, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 8 His average Hit points, assuming no switcharounds or other abuses, would be: {1d8+2}+{5d8+33} (62 hp) (75 while raging) In animal form he is taking two claws at +16 melee (1d4+12) and a bite +11 for 1d6+6; not all that bad really. On top of that he has DR 10/Silver and DR 5/Magic. I also think the CR 1/2 of his initial Orc level would have to brought up, either by adding a second level of Warrior, or by replacing the Warrior level with a Barb level. Using option one gives him an extra BAB and another 7 HP. Option 2 only gives him 2 More HP, but it would allow him to utilise Double Rage action, by Using his rage class feature, then shift into animal form and get hit and rage from that; that then gives him an extra 24 HP and an extra 4 to hit. Overall he would end up having to be CR 6, but I think he would make the average CR 6 party very upset.
snakeman830 06-12-07, 02:47 PM	No the point is to use the rules as written, and abuse them. For monsters. As in my above example, there is no realistic way a 71 HD monster is CR 17. The reason it is CR 17 is because the CR rules say when adding the Lycanthrope template it is only +6 CR for 21+ HD base animals.... So, I maxxed out a T-Rex to 54 HD, then used that as the base animal. Wrong? Yes. Legal? Yes. I love it. This one is a little more interesting. I used the Paragon Creature template from ELH: Paragon Thri-keen Medium Monsterous Humanoid Hit Dice: 2D8 +40 (56hp) Initiative: +10 Speed: 120 feet AC: 50 (+10 Dex, +5 natural, +12 insight, +12 luck) Touch:45, Flat-footed: 40 BAB/Grapple: +2/+35 (remember, grapples count as attacks) Attack: Claw + 35 melee (1D6 + 28) or longspear + 35 melee (1D8 +28/3) or javelin +36 ranged (1D6 + 28) Full attack: 4 claws + 35 melee (1D6 +28) and bite +33 melee (1D4 + 24 plus poison) Space/reach: 5ft/5ft Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, poison, Psi-like abilities Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 10/Epic, Darkvision 60ft, Fast Healing 20, Immunity to sleep, leap, Resist Fire 10, Cold 10, Spell Resistance 41 Saves: Fort: +18, Ref +23, Will +22 Abilities: Str 27, Dex 30, Con 26, Int 23, Wis 27, Cha 22 Skills: Balance +27, Climb + 23, Hide +25, Jump + 87, Listen + 23, Spot +23 Feats: Deflect Arrows(b), Improved Natural Attack (claw)(b), Multiattack CR: 16 Spell-like abilities: 3/Day- Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, See Invisibility. Caster level 15th Poison: Fortitude DC 19. Initial Damge: 1D6 Dex, Secondary Damage: Paralysis Psi-like abilities: 3/Day- Chameleon, Know Direction and Location. 1/Day- Psionic Displacement, Metaphysical Claw. Manifester level 16th Natural weapons are treated as Epic for overcoming DR. With that AC, fast healing, DR, speed, saves, and damage output, I don't think he's really a CR 16.
dman11235 06-12-07, 05:13 PM	Just a note, the +25 doesn't apply to grapples, just the attack roll to initiate it. And a couple nit picks, the jump is +88, and the AC is 49. Not like it matters!
souldragon_420 06-12-07, 05:28 PM	Any high HD monster with the psuedo natural template from the ELH is insanely broken in my opion since they get 5x there HD as SR and more tentacles the more HD they have and to top it all off the more HD the base creature has the less the template increases its CR. I know this from experince where a DM got on a psuedonatural kick in an epic campaign and it ended abrutly when 2 psuedonatural gray renders turned a party of 6 lvl 27 characters to hamburger in about 4 or 5 rounds with us so much as scrathing them and they were only a CR 20 encounter.
Hellsbells 06-14-07, 07:42 PM	Add chimeric to any great wyrm dragon (don't have books on me so not sure if its legal but lets asume it is) and its already broken..... Alternitavly just give a max HD T-rex the half dragon template...
Lionhearted 06-14-07, 07:58 PM	Add chimeric to any great wyrm dragon (don't have books on me so not sure if its legal but lets asume it is) and its already broken..... Alternitavly just give a max HD T-rex the half dragon template... Actually a max HD t-rex is CR 24 .. and a Half-dragon Maxed T-rex is cr 26 I don't think he compares to a Great wyrm gold dragon ;)
cog_n_taz 06-14-07, 08:22 PM	Dragon turtle, especially in 3.0:P No, seriously, go back to your MM/SRD, and look at that thing.
runestar 06-15-07, 12:12 AM	A lot of monsters in the MM tend to have filler feats such as alertness and toughness. Thus, just by "optimizing" their feat choice, they can be made more challenging than they already are. For example, all instances of toughness should be replaced with improved toughness. Swap in quicken SLA whenever possible, so the monster gets more actions each round. Also, hide armour is inferior to chain shirt or breastplate, so it is your pick as to whether you want better speed or more AC. Give them gear appropriate for their wealth guidelines. The improvement is fairly noticeable. For example, take the hill giant. Replace its feats with power attack, leap attack, shock trooper, improved bull rush and perhaps weapon focus or improved initiative. Replace hide armour with chain shirt for better speed. Have it buff up with bull's str. It can do enough damage to take down a fighter in 1 charge. Will of the wisp: give it improved flyby attack. With its high AC and immunities, it can afford to play hit-and-run with the entire party 24/7 given its high fly speed. Better hope the mage has tons of magic missiles. The lycantrope template's cr is also noticeably broken, especially for higher HD animals (since the cr increase is lower than the cr of the actual animal itself). In a more extreme case, a were-battletitan commoner1 is just cr7, while the battletitan dinosaur is a hefty cr16 itself...:cool: Take the balor from MM, and give it extraordinary concentration. It can now maintain implosion as a move action, followed with a quickened telekinesis or greater dispelling, and use a 3rd SLA as a standard action (typically blasphemy). All this while its summoned balor is in the thick of battle). Likewise, give the barbed devil quicken SLA: scorching ray to improve its damage output. The horned devil has improved sunder, which is useless since it cannot sunder with its spiked chain, so you should swap it out for quicken SLA: fireball or lightning bolt. Its stats make it a fairly good tripper, so you might consider bringing in expertise, improved trip and perhaps even improved disarm as well. The pit fiend can be a TPK if used correctly on an unsuspecting party (have it use wish to replicate AMF, charge into battle, grapple a rogue or wizard, fly away and bite them repeatedly until its poison kicks in, then repeat the whole sequence) A spider swarm is typically taken down by fire at lower lvs. Slap on the half red-dragon template and watch as your PCs squirm as they try to find a way to overcome it (as of the moment, I know of no way in which a cr3 party can garner the resources to defeat one). The tarrasque is perhaps the most iconic, with the eyesore that is its 6 toughness feats. Replace them with improved toughness, multiattack, perhaps stand still and maybe even some of the CW combat feats. I am not sure if improved crit stacks with augmented crit or not though. A threat range of 15-20 is pretty scary...but do note that the half-fiend template is not as good as some people are making it out to be, since a fly speed of 20-ft is not as scary as some might like to believe. Also, though I am not familiar with ToB, I have heard that the classes can be quite broken when combined with monster HD, due to the way initiator lv is determined. The CO boards once mentioned that they could create a cr17 challenge that proved to be extremely tough for a lv20 party to take on. To whet your appetite, consider the choker with 4 lvs of crusader.:D More may come, depending on what I can dig up, both from the boards here and my memory.:)