14HD Gold Dragon's alternate form has 4 HP? [Archive] - Wizards Community

14HD Gold Dragon's alternate form has 4 HP? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zuur
04-29-06, 12:27 AM My first post - please excuse (any point out) any mistakes..

So, a Wyrmling Gold Dragon has 8HD, a caster level of "-", and the Alternate Form ability which reads roughly like this:

Alternate Form (Su):
A gold dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself at its caster level, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an animal or humanoid. The dragon can remain in animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.
The polymorph spell states:
The assumed form can't have more hit dice than your caster level (or the subject's HD, which ever is lower), to a maximum of 15HD at 15th level.

I remember the Draconomicon saying somewhere that a dragon with a caster level of "-" is assumed to be a zero'th level caster for purposes..

Does this mean that the best an 8HD-11HD dragon can do is turn into an human with 0 HP?
Is 0HP even possible, or is this ability redundant until he can use it at 14HD (becoming a 1st level caster) and have a whole 4 HP?

Why would a dragon change into an alternate form at all if it meant a 1st level adventurer could sneeze on him and have a CR9 kill under his belt?

When I started reading the "Alternate Form" ability, I was expecting the ability to turn into a humanoid, demihumanoid, or more likely half-dragon of the applicable type, and be in a worthy bipedal form for a 8HD+ dragon - maybe loosing 2HP/level as the dragon's d12's were scaled down to d8's, and a few more HP/level as it lost it's high Con in its new form - but not turning into a 0HD animal of your preferred type :confused:

Some background: I'm wanting a relatively young sinver dragon to join a party of adventurers and have it follow them on dungoen crawls in a humanoid form.

Thanks for your thoughts :)

PS: How does one do a search in these forums? (or am I just blind..).
d_nychus
04-29-06, 12:38 AM You keep your normal hp while you are in an alternate form.

This section is from the errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)

Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.

Oh, and the search has been down for months, almost a year I think. They keep on having problems with it for some reason, or have just given up on it.
obrysii
04-29-06, 12:46 AM Things such as Alternate Form are assumed to have a caster level equal to the HD of the creature, if it does not have a higher caster level or a stated caster level, if I recall correctly.
Zuur
04-29-06, 07:17 AM Thanks guys - that clears things up nicely.

Two questions if I may, which aren't worthy in any way of their own thread..
1) Any ideas on easy ways for said dragon to transform into a half-dragon of the appropriate type (without having to be an epic druid or something) (being that a half-dragon has a type of "Dragon (augmented humanoid)" rather then humanoid or animal).
2) How do you find stuff round here if there's no search functionality?!? are there other quirks that help find things or do you just have to read through every single post ever?

Cheers,
- me.
obrysii
04-29-06, 09:21 AM 1) Any ideas on easy ways for said dragon to transform into a half-dragon of the appropriate type (without having to be an epic druid or something) (being that a half-dragon has a type of "Dragon (augmented humanoid)" rather then humanoid or animal).

Nope. You can't polymorph into a templated creature. The closest, if you only want the bonuses to strength and consitution, would be Draconic Polymorph, in the Draconomicon.

2) How do you find stuff round here if there's no search functionality?!? are there other quirks that help find things or do you just have to read through every single post ever?

Patience, by scanning each forum page :P
runestar
04-29-06, 09:36 AM 2) How do you find stuff round here if there's no search functionality?!? are there other quirks that help find things or do you just have to read through every single post ever?

Try begging and grovelling...and hoping that someone with a link to said article deigns to grace you with his knowledge and insight... :P

Else, try the google advanced search option, setting the wotc boards as its search parameters. It's rate of success is quite limited though, but it's still better than nothing. :(
Mystic Lemur
04-29-06, 10:32 AM If you want to shapechange to something Dragonish, try Dragonkin from Monsters of Faerun... although they may be monstrous humanoids, or dragons...
ClementWillowbreaker
04-29-06, 01:19 PM Note that now there is no caster level for Alternate Form (if there ever was a chance of something with that ability having fewer hit dice than the humanoid/animal it was turning into ), since it is no longer based on Polymorph. It's now its own thing. Check the MM Errata.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zuur 04-29-06, 12:27 AM	My first post - please excuse (any point out) any mistakes.. So, a Wyrmling Gold Dragon has 8HD, a caster level of "-", and the Alternate Form ability which reads roughly like this: Alternate Form (Su): A gold dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself at its caster level, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an animal or humanoid. The dragon can remain in animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form. The polymorph spell states: The assumed form can't have more hit dice than your caster level (or the subject's HD, which ever is lower), to a maximum of 15HD at 15th level. I remember the Draconomicon saying somewhere that a dragon with a caster level of "-" is assumed to be a zero'th level caster for purposes.. Does this mean that the best an 8HD-11HD dragon can do is turn into an human with 0 HP? Is 0HP even possible, or is this ability redundant until he can use it at 14HD (becoming a 1st level caster) and have a whole 4 HP? Why would a dragon change into an alternate form at all if it meant a 1st level adventurer could sneeze on him and have a CR9 kill under his belt? When I started reading the "Alternate Form" ability, I was expecting the ability to turn into a humanoid, demihumanoid, or more likely half-dragon of the applicable type, and be in a worthy bipedal form for a 8HD+ dragon - maybe loosing 2HP/level as the dragon's d12's were scaled down to d8's, and a few more HP/level as it lost it's high Con in its new form - but not turning into a 0HD animal of your preferred type :confused: Some background: I'm wanting a relatively young sinver dragon to join a party of adventurers and have it follow them on dungoen crawls in a humanoid form. Thanks for your thoughts :) PS: How does one do a search in these forums? (or am I just blind..).
d_nychus 04-29-06, 12:38 AM	You keep your normal hp while you are in an alternate form. This section is from the errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. Oh, and the search has been down for months, almost a year I think. They keep on having problems with it for some reason, or have just given up on it.
obrysii 04-29-06, 12:46 AM	Things such as Alternate Form are assumed to have a caster level equal to the HD of the creature, if it does not have a higher caster level or a stated caster level, if I recall correctly.
Zuur 04-29-06, 07:17 AM	Thanks guys - that clears things up nicely. Two questions if I may, which aren't worthy in any way of their own thread.. 1) Any ideas on easy ways for said dragon to transform into a half-dragon of the appropriate type (without having to be an epic druid or something) (being that a half-dragon has a type of "Dragon (augmented humanoid)" rather then humanoid or animal). 2) How do you find stuff round here if there's no search functionality?!? are there other quirks that help find things or do you just have to read through every single post ever? Cheers, - me.
obrysii 04-29-06, 09:21 AM	1) Any ideas on easy ways for said dragon to transform into a half-dragon of the appropriate type (without having to be an epic druid or something) (being that a half-dragon has a type of "Dragon (augmented humanoid)" rather then humanoid or animal). Nope. You can't polymorph into a templated creature. The closest, if you only want the bonuses to strength and consitution, would be Draconic Polymorph, in the Draconomicon. 2) How do you find stuff round here if there's no search functionality?!? are there other quirks that help find things or do you just have to read through every single post ever? Patience, by scanning each forum page :P
runestar 04-29-06, 09:36 AM	2) How do you find stuff round here if there's no search functionality?!? are there other quirks that help find things or do you just have to read through every single post ever? Try begging and grovelling...and hoping that someone with a link to said article deigns to grace you with his knowledge and insight... :P Else, try the google advanced search option, setting the wotc boards as its search parameters. It's rate of success is quite limited though, but it's still better than nothing. :(
Mystic Lemur 04-29-06, 10:32 AM	If you want to shapechange to something Dragonish, try Dragonkin from Monsters of Faerun... although they may be monstrous humanoids, or dragons...
ClementWillowbreaker 04-29-06, 01:19 PM	Note that now there is no caster level for Alternate Form (if there ever was a chance of something with that ability having fewer hit dice than the humanoid/animal it was turning into ), since it is no longer based on Polymorph. It's now its own thing. Check the MM Errata.