3.0 Devil w/ 3.5 DR (Lord of the Iron Fortress spoilers) [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.0 Devil w/ 3.5 DR (Lord of the Iron Fortress spoilers) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GMScoundrel
11-07-04, 04:31 PM For the record I run a v3.5 game. Sometime in the future I'm going to be running the WOTC "Lord of the Iron Fortress" adventure. I look forward to tormenting my players with it. However, if anyone has read it or played it before they know that the spell symbol plays a huge part in the adventure. These symbols are cast by the local Pit Fiend who lives there. Now, you're going to say "Hey wait, Pit Fiend's can't cast the spell symbol!" and there lies the problem.

A quick glance will tell you there is a HUGE difference between the 3.5 Uber Pit Fiend, and his lesser cousin the 3.0 Pit Fiend. While his physical attributes has made the Pit Fiend more deadly than ever, he lost a lot in the spell department, including the spell symbol. I still would like to use the Pit Fiend, but obviously now it is too powerful and would wipe the floor with my hapless players, and also wouldn't be able to litter the fortress with his traps and spells.

So I was thinking of using the 3.0 Pit Fiend with some small 3.5 updates to it, mainly in the Damage Reduction department. I just need some help from the more knowledgeable masses out here to help me find a balance. I would basically keep the 3.0 Pit Fiend exactly the same. Have him keep his ability scores, attacks, and damages. So he won't wipe the floor with my players, I wasn't thinking of increasing any of his poisons, diseases, or other special attacks and qualities. And I was going to keep his rather plentiful spell-like ability list the same.

The 3.5 Pit Fiend has a DR of 15/good and silver and a regeneration of 5, taking normal damage from good-aligned silvered weapons and good spells. Obviously these are too powerful for my wiener CR 16, 13HD monster.

I was thinking more, DR 10/good or silver and a regenration of 5, taking normal damage from good weapons, sliver weapons, and good spells. What do you think? Too much, too weak? Right on target? Thanks for you help in advance.
(Psi)SeveredHead
11-07-04, 04:54 PM For the record I run a v3.5 game. Sometime in the future I'm going to be running the WOTC "Lord of the Iron Fortress" adventure. I look forward to tormenting my players with it. However, if anyone has read it or played it before they know that the spell symbol plays a huge part in the adventure. These symbols are cast by the local Pit Fiend who lives there. Now, you're going to say "Hey wait, Pit Fiend's can't cast the spell symbol!" and there lies the problem.

A quick glance will tell you there is a HUGE difference between the 3.5 Uber Pit Fiend, and his lesser cousin the 3.0 Pit Fiend. While his physical attributes has made the Pit Fiend more deadly than ever, he lost a lot in the spell department, including the spell symbol. I still would like to use the Pit Fiend, but obviously now it is too powerful and would wipe the floor with my hapless players, and also wouldn't be able to litter the fortress with his traps and spells.

So I was thinking of using the 3.0 Pit Fiend with some small 3.5 updates to it, mainly in the Damage Reduction department. I just need some help from the more knowledgeable masses out here to help me find a balance. I would basically keep the 3.0 Pit Fiend exactly the same. Have him keep his ability scores, attacks, and damages. So he won't wipe the floor with my players, I wasn't thinking of increasing any of his poisons, diseases, or other special attacks and qualities. And I was going to keep his rather plentiful spell-like ability list the same.

The 3.5 Pit Fiend has a DR of 15/good and silver and a regeneration of 5, taking normal damage from good-aligned silvered weapons and good spells. Obviously these are too powerful for my wiener CR 16, 13HD monster.

I was thinking more, DR 10/good or silver and a regenration of 5, taking normal damage from good weapons, sliver weapons, and good spells. What do you think? Too much, too weak? Right on target? Thanks for you help in advance.

IMO that's not a great idea. The 3.0 pit fiend was pitifully weak, even if you ignore DR issues.

Then again, a CR 20 creature is probably too strong for a 15th-level adventure. IMO you should take another fiend of the same size or smaller and modify it's spell selection slightly (so replace a high-level spell-like ability with the appropriate symbol spell(s)). You could replace multiple spells and give it a theme (eg if you applied the wood elemental template, you would replace many spells with (new) plant versions of the same thing).

Alternatively, you could take a low CR fiend and give it caster levels, using the non-associated class rules.
DungeonMaster
11-08-04, 12:54 PM I think you should just use the advancement rules in 3rd edition rather than use the much weaker 3.5 pitfiend.
The 3rd edition pit-fiend is CR 16 while the 3.5 one is CR 20.
You didn't say what level your party is so I'm presuming level 20 or so.
A CR 20 3rd edition pitfiend will have 39 HD and corresponding increase in size to huge, bab, skill points, etc...
If you want I could dig up the advanced monster for you, I did it a while ago.
What they did in 3.5 is more or less advance the monsters then they nixed all their truly nasty abilities.

I don't suggest using 3.5 DR unless you really want to. The 3rd edition pit-fiend regenerates all damage done to it except from blessed or holy weapons of at least +3 enchantment. So they really need the right weapon to do the job. I can also give you some simple tricks and tactics the pit-fiend can use with it's much greater spell like ability selection than the 3.5 one.
GMScoundrel
11-08-04, 04:45 PM Thanks for responding (Psi)SeveredHead and DungeonMaster!

I'm not too worried about it being too weak, (Psi)SeveredHead. They won't be facing it in one on one combat, as he will mostly be playing behind the scene caster than front running tank. Of course I've never run one either, so I'll take your advice into consideration. I also only have 3 PCs gaming, so it doesn't take much for it to be a challenge. The template idea isn't that bad, but I'm not looking to get too crazy here. I like the Pit Fiend mostly the way its set up now. I'll take a look at some of the other devil's to upgrade, but none of them seem quite have that "cool" factor that the Pit Fiend does.

I'm sorry I didn't state more clearly DungeonMaster the adventure is ment for 4, 15th level PCs. Obviously my merry band of 3 will be slightly higher level than that. So the 3.5 Pit Fiend is out of the question. Just too strong, while its nasty spell abilities are gone, it will simply be too physically brutal to them.

The only reason I wanted to use the 3.5 DR system, its because I'm running a 3.5 game. By that level they are used to that type of DR, as I will be. I'd hate to make one exception, but on the other hand, they'll never know! ;)

Both versions are fairly nasty when it comes to the regeneration, especially considering nobody in the party is a cleric. They'll be hard pressed to do it anyway. That’s why I wanted to soften it slightly to be all of the following, silver, good, or good spells. I figured that would be broad enough of a range to be possible to achieve. Of course I don't know exactly that’s why I'm asking.

I'd defiantly love some tips and tactics to use, you can never have too many. I really want to use the 3.0 Pit Fiend's greater spell list, to really wreck havoc on them while the minions try to bog them down in combat. Thanks again! :D
DungeonMaster
11-08-04, 07:20 PM Ok! So without knowing more than that here's the simple plan:

If the devil has had any time to itself undisturbed unhallow everything . This gives the effects of a magic circle vs. good everywhere.
Make sure to have legions of crappy undead everywhere. Anything the pitfiend has killed should be animated within the unhallowed area and make sure it desecrates the ground before animating them so that they gain +1 hp per hitdie. Turning checks in a desecrated area are at -3 which stacks with unhallow so they're at -7.
Any PC that dies should be immediately animated as a zombie to prevent anything short of resurrection. The pit fiend can do this or alternatively any of lower-level devils it can summon such as osyluth.
Unhallow gives the devil tons of room to screw with their powers. Some of my favorite spells to have keyed to the area are:
Silence - a real pain on many a spellcaster
Deeper darkness - the devils can see right through magical darkness (don't use 3.5 darkness, use the real thing).
Protection from elements (cold).
Invisibility purge and dispel magic can be usefull as well (though PC caster level is likely high for the dispel).
You can alternate these effects - one room is totally dark, one is a dimensional trap with emerald green walls, the other is completely silent and still another where cold spells are heavily impeded.

Unholy aura all minions . It's a close range spell so the pit fiend needs to be nearby but it's more than irritating to have your strength drained if you smack a lowly zombie and your spells resisted by the same lowly zombie.

Try at absolute best to not get within 120 feet of the party. True-seeing has a range of 120 feet - as long as you're beyond that range the pit-fiend can be a polymorphed bat, rat or something else innoffensive, a scorpion, etc...
it can still use all of it's spell like abilities in the polymorphed form - they require neither V,S or M components.
Always improved invisible as well of course as a backup, but that's not as good a disguise as the polymorph spell at these high levels.

Beyond this range illlusions such as the major image can totally screw around with the PCs - An illusions of reinforcements will drain spells, disorient the warriors, and generally cause panic. Don't make it obvious - have the pitfiend create a real wall of fire around a large illusionary salamander then layer the area with firewalls and the occasional fireball. These attacks typically won't injure PCs of this level to a great degree - that's how you draw them into the real killer, the symbols.
Symbols of persuasion are among my personal favorites. There's nothing like charming AND causing alignment change... always carefully inscribe them for +4 to the DC. Hopelessness, pain, and discord are also very bad. Actually they're all extremely bad in my experience. Mind-blanked wizards might manage with a variety of them - then you carefully layer a few in there to hit them with symbols of pain, death and stunning to get those fortitude saves.
If you can manage try to get a suggestion spell off on the most righteous looking of the PCs to "charge forth and save a maiden in distress" the maiden being an illusion of course and the path to the maiden littered with symbols.
The PC in question might hate you for some time afterwards but he should realise that it's a greater devil he's going up against and the creature is not going to fight fair.

Whenever there's a wall of fire spell active use pyrotechnics on it to sow confusion. In fact the devil should never be caught without a simple produced flame (cuped in his hands to not emit light of course and potentially blow his cover) so that he can't pyrotechnics a fire source instantly.
Kalitharus
11-24-04, 08:51 AM That module Lord of the Iron Fortress is terrible. A half Duergar-half Red Dragon as the main villian? What a lame idea. Duergar live in the Underdark and Red Dragons live in the mountains; its likely a Duergar has never seen a Red Dragon to begin with.
texanhick20
11-24-04, 11:21 AM change it to a half shadow dragon :) for an underdark campaign, that's gonna be nasty, (specially if you add paragon half dragon to the villian.
The Abominable Darkling
11-24-04, 11:23 AM Why not just replace the pit fiend entirely? As I recall, its particular nature wasn't relevant to the story. You could just use a 16th-level sorcerer, for example.
Kalitharus
11-24-04, 12:24 PM Would'nt want to... I despise 3E and its bastard children. :D

3E/3.5 are corrupted shells of a once great game.
DungeonMaster
11-24-04, 01:59 PM Red dragons have a terrain entry "mountains/undergroud" so you could have a red dragon in the underdark.
Not to bolster the module, it's quite bad in my estimation - like all of AC's stuff it's rather simplistic, crude and ill thought out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GMScoundrel 11-07-04, 04:31 PM	For the record I run a v3.5 game. Sometime in the future I'm going to be running the WOTC "Lord of the Iron Fortress" adventure. I look forward to tormenting my players with it. However, if anyone has read it or played it before they know that the spell symbol plays a huge part in the adventure. These symbols are cast by the local Pit Fiend who lives there. Now, you're going to say "Hey wait, Pit Fiend's can't cast the spell symbol!" and there lies the problem. A quick glance will tell you there is a HUGE difference between the 3.5 Uber Pit Fiend, and his lesser cousin the 3.0 Pit Fiend. While his physical attributes has made the Pit Fiend more deadly than ever, he lost a lot in the spell department, including the spell symbol. I still would like to use the Pit Fiend, but obviously now it is too powerful and would wipe the floor with my hapless players, and also wouldn't be able to litter the fortress with his traps and spells. So I was thinking of using the 3.0 Pit Fiend with some small 3.5 updates to it, mainly in the Damage Reduction department. I just need some help from the more knowledgeable masses out here to help me find a balance. I would basically keep the 3.0 Pit Fiend exactly the same. Have him keep his ability scores, attacks, and damages. So he won't wipe the floor with my players, I wasn't thinking of increasing any of his poisons, diseases, or other special attacks and qualities. And I was going to keep his rather plentiful spell-like ability list the same. The 3.5 Pit Fiend has a DR of 15/good and silver and a regeneration of 5, taking normal damage from good-aligned silvered weapons and good spells. Obviously these are too powerful for my wiener CR 16, 13HD monster. I was thinking more, DR 10/good or silver and a regenration of 5, taking normal damage from good weapons, sliver weapons, and good spells. What do you think? Too much, too weak? Right on target? Thanks for you help in advance.
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-07-04, 04:54 PM	For the record I run a v3.5 game. Sometime in the future I'm going to be running the WOTC "Lord of the Iron Fortress" adventure. I look forward to tormenting my players with it. However, if anyone has read it or played it before they know that the spell symbol plays a huge part in the adventure. These symbols are cast by the local Pit Fiend who lives there. Now, you're going to say "Hey wait, Pit Fiend's can't cast the spell symbol!" and there lies the problem. A quick glance will tell you there is a HUGE difference between the 3.5 Uber Pit Fiend, and his lesser cousin the 3.0 Pit Fiend. While his physical attributes has made the Pit Fiend more deadly than ever, he lost a lot in the spell department, including the spell symbol. I still would like to use the Pit Fiend, but obviously now it is too powerful and would wipe the floor with my hapless players, and also wouldn't be able to litter the fortress with his traps and spells. So I was thinking of using the 3.0 Pit Fiend with some small 3.5 updates to it, mainly in the Damage Reduction department. I just need some help from the more knowledgeable masses out here to help me find a balance. I would basically keep the 3.0 Pit Fiend exactly the same. Have him keep his ability scores, attacks, and damages. So he won't wipe the floor with my players, I wasn't thinking of increasing any of his poisons, diseases, or other special attacks and qualities. And I was going to keep his rather plentiful spell-like ability list the same. The 3.5 Pit Fiend has a DR of 15/good and silver and a regeneration of 5, taking normal damage from good-aligned silvered weapons and good spells. Obviously these are too powerful for my wiener CR 16, 13HD monster. I was thinking more, DR 10/good or silver and a regenration of 5, taking normal damage from good weapons, sliver weapons, and good spells. What do you think? Too much, too weak? Right on target? Thanks for you help in advance. IMO that's not a great idea. The 3.0 pit fiend was pitifully weak, even if you ignore DR issues. Then again, a CR 20 creature is probably too strong for a 15th-level adventure. IMO you should take another fiend of the same size or smaller and modify it's spell selection slightly (so replace a high-level spell-like ability with the appropriate symbol spell(s)). You could replace multiple spells and give it a theme (eg if you applied the wood elemental template, you would replace many spells with (new) plant versions of the same thing). Alternatively, you could take a low CR fiend and give it caster levels, using the non-associated class rules.
DungeonMaster 11-08-04, 12:54 PM	I think you should just use the advancement rules in 3rd edition rather than use the much weaker 3.5 pitfiend. The 3rd edition pit-fiend is CR 16 while the 3.5 one is CR 20. You didn't say what level your party is so I'm presuming level 20 or so. A CR 20 3rd edition pitfiend will have 39 HD and corresponding increase in size to huge, bab, skill points, etc... If you want I could dig up the advanced monster for you, I did it a while ago. What they did in 3.5 is more or less advance the monsters then they nixed all their truly nasty abilities. I don't suggest using 3.5 DR unless you really want to. The 3rd edition pit-fiend regenerates all damage done to it except from blessed or holy weapons of at least +3 enchantment. So they really need the right weapon to do the job. I can also give you some simple tricks and tactics the pit-fiend can use with it's much greater spell like ability selection than the 3.5 one.
GMScoundrel 11-08-04, 04:45 PM	Thanks for responding (Psi)SeveredHead and DungeonMaster! I'm not too worried about it being too weak, (Psi)SeveredHead. They won't be facing it in one on one combat, as he will mostly be playing behind the scene caster than front running tank. Of course I've never run one either, so I'll take your advice into consideration. I also only have 3 PCs gaming, so it doesn't take much for it to be a challenge. The template idea isn't that bad, but I'm not looking to get too crazy here. I like the Pit Fiend mostly the way its set up now. I'll take a look at some of the other devil's to upgrade, but none of them seem quite have that "cool" factor that the Pit Fiend does. I'm sorry I didn't state more clearly DungeonMaster the adventure is ment for 4, 15th level PCs. Obviously my merry band of 3 will be slightly higher level than that. So the 3.5 Pit Fiend is out of the question. Just too strong, while its nasty spell abilities are gone, it will simply be too physically brutal to them. The only reason I wanted to use the 3.5 DR system, its because I'm running a 3.5 game. By that level they are used to that type of DR, as I will be. I'd hate to make one exception, but on the other hand, they'll never know! ;) Both versions are fairly nasty when it comes to the regeneration, especially considering nobody in the party is a cleric. They'll be hard pressed to do it anyway. That’s why I wanted to soften it slightly to be all of the following, silver, good, or good spells. I figured that would be broad enough of a range to be possible to achieve. Of course I don't know exactly that’s why I'm asking. I'd defiantly love some tips and tactics to use, you can never have too many. I really want to use the 3.0 Pit Fiend's greater spell list, to really wreck havoc on them while the minions try to bog them down in combat. Thanks again! :D
DungeonMaster 11-08-04, 07:20 PM	Ok! So without knowing more than that here's the simple plan: If the devil has had any time to itself undisturbed unhallow everything . This gives the effects of a magic circle vs. good everywhere. Make sure to have legions of crappy undead everywhere. Anything the pitfiend has killed should be animated within the unhallowed area and make sure it desecrates the ground before animating them so that they gain +1 hp per hitdie. Turning checks in a desecrated area are at -3 which stacks with unhallow so they're at -7. Any PC that dies should be immediately animated as a zombie to prevent anything short of resurrection. The pit fiend can do this or alternatively any of lower-level devils it can summon such as osyluth. Unhallow gives the devil tons of room to screw with their powers. Some of my favorite spells to have keyed to the area are: Silence - a real pain on many a spellcaster Deeper darkness - the devils can see right through magical darkness (don't use 3.5 darkness, use the real thing). Protection from elements (cold). Invisibility purge and dispel magic can be usefull as well (though PC caster level is likely high for the dispel). You can alternate these effects - one room is totally dark, one is a dimensional trap with emerald green walls, the other is completely silent and still another where cold spells are heavily impeded. Unholy aura all minions . It's a close range spell so the pit fiend needs to be nearby but it's more than irritating to have your strength drained if you smack a lowly zombie and your spells resisted by the same lowly zombie. Try at absolute best to not get within 120 feet of the party. True-seeing has a range of 120 feet - as long as you're beyond that range the pit-fiend can be a polymorphed bat, rat or something else innoffensive, a scorpion, etc... it can still use all of it's spell like abilities in the polymorphed form - they require neither V,S or M components. Always improved invisible as well of course as a backup, but that's not as good a disguise as the polymorph spell at these high levels. Beyond this range illlusions such as the major image can totally screw around with the PCs - An illusions of reinforcements will drain spells, disorient the warriors, and generally cause panic. Don't make it obvious - have the pitfiend create a real wall of fire around a large illusionary salamander then layer the area with firewalls and the occasional fireball. These attacks typically won't injure PCs of this level to a great degree - that's how you draw them into the real killer, the symbols. Symbols of persuasion are among my personal favorites. There's nothing like charming AND causing alignment change... always carefully inscribe them for +4 to the DC. Hopelessness, pain, and discord are also very bad. Actually they're all extremely bad in my experience. Mind-blanked wizards might manage with a variety of them - then you carefully layer a few in there to hit them with symbols of pain, death and stunning to get those fortitude saves. If you can manage try to get a suggestion spell off on the most righteous looking of the PCs to "charge forth and save a maiden in distress" the maiden being an illusion of course and the path to the maiden littered with symbols. The PC in question might hate you for some time afterwards but he should realise that it's a greater devil he's going up against and the creature is not going to fight fair. Whenever there's a wall of fire spell active use pyrotechnics on it to sow confusion. In fact the devil should never be caught without a simple produced flame (cuped in his hands to not emit light of course and potentially blow his cover) so that he can't pyrotechnics a fire source instantly.
Kalitharus 11-24-04, 08:51 AM	That module Lord of the Iron Fortress is terrible. A half Duergar-half Red Dragon as the main villian? What a lame idea. Duergar live in the Underdark and Red Dragons live in the mountains; its likely a Duergar has never seen a Red Dragon to begin with.
texanhick20 11-24-04, 11:21 AM	change it to a half shadow dragon :) for an underdark campaign, that's gonna be nasty, (specially if you add paragon half dragon to the villian.
The Abominable Darkling 11-24-04, 11:23 AM	Why not just replace the pit fiend entirely? As I recall, its particular nature wasn't relevant to the story. You could just use a 16th-level sorcerer, for example.
Kalitharus 11-24-04, 12:24 PM	Would'nt want to... I despise 3E and its bastard children. :D 3E/3.5 are corrupted shells of a once great game.
DungeonMaster 11-24-04, 01:59 PM	Red dragons have a terrain entry "mountains/undergroud" so you could have a red dragon in the underdark. Not to bolster the module, it's quite bad in my estimation - like all of AC's stuff it's rather simplistic, crude and ill thought out.