Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeadEye 09-27-04, 01:42 AM	Hi there. I've recently started a campaign as a Kaorti, a monster from the Fiend Folio with 2 hit die and a +2 level adjustment. The campaign starts us as level 5 characters. Thus, I have an extra class level, making me ECL 5. I thought that since my effective character level is 5, I would get the money total listed for level 5 characters on table 2-24 in the DMG. My DM said that since I have only one class level, my money total is only the starting gold of a level 1 character. I've read the instructions in Savage Species on how to create a monster character, and it says "compare your starting ECL with the table 2-24 in the DMG", which I assume means that since my ECL is 5, I get the level 5 money. I mean, that seems logical to me. Otherwise, the special abilities you gain as a monster (which roughly, roughly equate to the class levels you'd get if you'd gone a race with no monster HD or LA to worry about) in no way approach the power of a character of a class level higher than you, with extra magical items on top of that. The logic continues to elude me when it comes to levelling up. I've got the same XP as a character with class levels equivalent to my ECL, but because his are class levels and mine are from being a monster, I'm forced into taking a lesser portion of the treasure because I'm not of an adequate level? At level 20, I'd have 260,000 gold, whereas a human of my level would have 500,000 on top of that. My Kaorti abilities and stat bonuses don't nearly approach what can be achieved with that amount of gold. If anyone could point me to either an FAQ or some other printed example I can show my DM, I'd be very appreciative. Also, if everyone who reads this could let me know what their opinion is on the matter, I'd be appreciative, as a majority one way or the other might help clarify things.
malykoth 09-27-04, 09:30 AM	While I'm a firm believer in everyone being entitled to his/her own opinion, I must say that in this case at least, your DM couldn't be more wrong. You are absolutely correct in your assumption. Have him look in his DMG (I assume he has one?) on page 135, under "Character Wealth". The second paragraph actually has a reference to 7th-level CHARACTERS...ECL stands for "Effective Character Level", i.e.: it is added to class level to calculate full character levels. A player that had (as you do) a character with ECL 4 and 1 class level should have 9,000 gp (5th level character) starting wealth. Does he really think an illithid (ECL 15) is going to have absolutely NO equipment other than rocks and sticks? :rolleyes: Good luck... Edit: Oops...I just noticed you're using 3.0...I may need to apologize to your DM, as I'm using 3.5. I don't have a 3.0 DMG handy, so I have to admit it may be different in the older edition. Still, the principle is the same...
matx2k 09-27-04, 06:09 PM	Yes, your DM is very wrong. Maly is completely right. a 5th level character with the stuff on a 1st won't be alive for long. a level 3 human paladin is ECL 3, and therefore deserves 3rd level cash. an ECL 5 should get 5th level cash.
Thomar_of_Uointer 09-27-04, 10:11 PM	Yep. The DMG clearly states that you figure out the amount of wealth you have based on your ECL.
DeadEye 09-28-04, 04:00 AM	While I'm a firm believer in everyone being entitled to his/her own opinion, I must say that in this case at least, your DM couldn't be more wrong. You are absolutely correct in your assumption. Have him look in his DMG (I assume he has one?) on page 135, under "Character Wealth". The second paragraph actually has a reference to 7th-level CHARACTERS...ECL stands for "Effective Character Level", i.e.: it is added to class level to calculate full character levels. A player that had (as you do) a character with ECL 4 and 1 class level should have 9,000 gp (5th level character) starting wealth. Does he really think an illithid (ECL 15) is going to have absolutely NO equipment other than rocks and sticks? :rolleyes: Good luck... Edit: Oops...I just noticed you're using 3.0...I may need to apologize to your DM, as I'm using 3.5. I don't have a 3.0 DMG handy, so I have to admit it may be different in the older edition. Still, the principle is the same... The problem basically down to the limited rules available for playing as monster PCs in the 3.0 DMG. It was really expanded later in stuff like Savage Species, so I will show my DM a few of the relevant pages of that, but for some reason he's making comments along the lines of: "Savage Species is for playing a monster campaign", and implying that it has modified the rules in regards to playing a monster PC in a predominantly monster-populated world, which is not the case. Whether I can talk through that is beyond me at the moment, only because he's likely to be stubborn. Anyway, the 3.0 DMG actually says "A creature with no class levels has the standard gear for a creature of its kind. A creature with class levels has equipment worth an amount based on the total of those class levels (see Table 2-24: Starting Equipment for PCs above 1st Level)." So according to your example, an illithid would have either the gear it says it has in the Monster Manual (if it has no class levels) or equipment of whatever class level it is (if it has class levels). So a 1st level wizard illithid would have 4d4 x 10 gold or something like that, according to the 3.0 DMG. This is at a point in D&D history where I think the phrases"effective character level" or "level adjustment" must not have existed, as they're not referenced in the appropriate text at all. I mean, if my DM's going to be stubborn, I'm pretty much boned anyway; there's not so much you can argue if someone decides your sources of argument are irrelevant. Really all I can do is show the parts of Savage Species that mention you get equipment worth your ECL, the bit in the SRD that mentions the same, and this thread. Does anyone know if the Sage has dealt with this anywhere?
The WarOverlord 09-28-04, 05:16 AM	Yes, your DM is very wrong. Maly is completely right. a 5th level character with the stuff on a 1st won't be alive for long. a level 3 human paladin is ECL 3, and therefore deserves 3rd level cash. an ECL 5 should get 5th level cash. Unless there is a Story/Plot to why you wouldn't e.g. Just got/broke out of Prison, Just finished serving in the Army (equipment wasn't yours), the particular Church doesn't have the Starting equipment/funds needed to equip the Paladin.
malykoth 09-28-04, 08:51 AM	Meh...if he's going to be a stubborn b*tth*le, save yourself a lot of frustration and just play one of the core races. There's plenty of neat role/roll play opportunity with them, unless you've somehow managed to play every possible option/variant that interests you.
DeadEye 09-28-04, 01:28 PM	Meh...if he's going to be a stubborn b*tth*le, save yourself a lot of frustration and just play one of the core races. There's plenty of neat role/roll play opportunity with them, unless you've somehow managed to play every possible option/variant that interests you. Too late. Already started the campaign. I actually found out what his opinion was on the whole equipment issue maybe 5 minutes before the session began. Besides, if I'd played a core race, I wouldn't be able to play what I plan to. In any case, it's an interesting character I have planned. I qualify for Fiend of Possession at 6th level, so this kaorti's plan is to become one, then pass himself off as a weapon of great power in a couple of levels time. Then I can possess a weapon and make it good, manipulate the person who picks it up and uses it, if they are good enough then to turn them into a half-fiend with my kaorti ability, buff them with cleric powers (if you possess someone you become part of them, thus personal powers such as Divine Power or Favour affect them as well), then possess the weapon and have an extra +6 of bonus enhancements on it. As for playing up the "Legendary Weapon of Unimaginable Power" cover story, I figure I can either drop 'rumours' of its existence, or hire some bard to make known the existence of this weapon of great legend that lies unfound somewhere. Either way should supply me with a few weak-willed powerhungry simpletons to control. As a character idea that I've never played before, I think I will enjoy playing up the manipulation and domination aspects of the character. It's more out of frustration that I complain about stuff like starting equipment, mostly because it increases the chance of me dying early and not actually pulling the build off.
DeadEye 09-28-04, 01:36 PM	Unless there is a Story/Plot to why you wouldn't e.g. Just got/broke out of Prison, Just finished serving in the Army (equipment wasn't yours), the particular Church doesn't have the Starting equipment/funds needed to equip the Paladin. Nope, not really. Well, not that I've been made aware of, which leads me to believe that there isn't a plot reason. In the end, all it means is that me and the werewolf in the party end up having to screw the other guys out of a decent amount of loot, because we're so down (The party is made of a Hobgoblin cleric, a Hobgoblin barbarian sorceror, a human werewolf rogue and me, the kaorti cleric).