Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SpaceMonkey 06-09-04, 03:17 AM	I checked the site, and didn't see any errata file for the MM 3.5. Has this not come out yet? Is there an unofficial source or a 'stuff found so far' listing? I was going over the troll ranger entry from the MM and may have found an error. He seems to have a couple of ability points more than he should have (assuming that he was built with the elite array - 15,14,13,12,10,8) does anyone else see this, or can you point me to something I missed? I know he get 2 points from Hit Dice (one at 8HD and one at 12), but there are 2 extra after that by my calculations.
Gemstone 06-09-04, 03:26 AM	He should have another at HD 4...
ieattrollsforbreakfast 06-09-04, 04:42 AM	NO he shouldnt, the 4th HD is giant HD, and doesnt grant bonus ability scores, only counts towards calculations for the next. Perhaps the troll is just special?
Gemstone 06-09-04, 08:48 AM	Originally posted by ieattrollsforbreakfast NO he shouldnt, the 4th HD is giant HD, and doesnt grant bonus ability scores, only counts towards calculations for the next. Perhaps the troll is just special? What in the Faerūnian Abyss and part of Baator do you mean with that? All creatures gain ability scores for each 4 HD they have, so the troll hunter should have a total of 6+6=12 12/4=3 points to spend on attributes. So can you please explain what you mean (No flame, I just don't understand what you mean)
ieattrollsforbreakfast 06-09-04, 10:53 AM	Well the trolls racial HD do not grant bonus ability scores like the class HD. In other worlds, the six giant HD do not count in the calculation, since all trolls have them anyway. However, I remeber reading (SS or MM 3.5 I think), that a monster with class levels gains increased ability scores whenever its HD total is a multiple of 4. For example, the troll hunter is a 6th level ranger. It has 12 HD, and so would normally have 3 bonus points to its abilities (one at 4th level, 8th level and 12th level). But, because its first 6 HD are racial HD they dont give it extra ability score points, so the one at 4th level doesnt count, only giving itthe bonus points at 8th and 12th level. If we were talking about, say, a stone giant fighter level 6, the giant has a total of 20HD. A character with 20HD in class levels would get 5 bonus points. But since the first 14HD are racial giant HD, he doesnt get bonuses for those HD. So instead of getting them at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th, he would lose the ones at 4th, 8th and 12th, only getting the two from 16th and 20th. I hope that makes more sense.
NightScreamer20 06-09-04, 03:58 PM	Huh? That's not right... Monsters gain +1 ability bonus for every 4 HD they have. Classes give +1 ability bonus for every level you take of them. When advancing as a Monster PC these Stack to determine what stat increases you get. Let's look at your 6th level Stone Giant fighter. Stone Giants have 14 HD right? Plus 6 levels of Fighter = 20 HD. He would gain 5 +1 ability score increases. Page 290 of the MM 3.5 states that whenever a creatures gains an HD divisible by 4 it increases an ability score by +1. You're reading the part where it says 'Monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial HD, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores" That is for straight out advancing monsters for players to fight. If you were playing Stone Giant you have to take levels IN Stone Giant and therefore cannot have 'already reached' them. Instead WHEN you reach them YOU choose where to place the ability score bonus. If not using that Stone Giant example as a PC, but as a monster for your PCs to battle (using just their already written down ability scores instead of rerolling your own and making them new seperate characters) you would do as Trolls said, since the Ability Scores increases are ALREADY in the statistics block. Knowing Wizards of the Coast though it was probably a typo...
SpaceMonkey 06-09-04, 04:04 PM	Regarding the gaining of ability points for 'monster levels' already attained: (MM 3.5 pg 290 'Ability Score Improvement') - "Monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they 'already reached' with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores." Basically, any and all bonus ability points that a monster would get at every 4th hit die gained are already calculated into the standard bonuses (in this case the trolls whopping bonuses to strength, con, dex...) So ieattrolls was right in that you don't have to worry about them, not because you don't get them but because they have already been taken care of in the base monster stats. -------------- Regardless of the above, I'm still wondering if there is any errata or 'in the works' errata out there? Also, does it then appear that the troll ranger is 2 points the better on ability scores? I'm ok with that, as long as I know it (perhaps they just decided to use something other than the elite array for him to begin with, as it doesn't list his starting stats). Feels like a mistake to me though, as usually they would list that if they weren't using the proper default array (and sometimes they even list exactly which slots they put each of the array numbers in, like with the orc warrior). Can anyone answer either of these questions?
NightScreamer20 06-09-04, 04:48 PM	I think really that's what I was pointing out. I had Trolls wrong, I thought he was creating a CHARACTER, a true PC not just adding class levels to Stone Giant levels to make an NPC. I jsut stated that when making an actual character you DO gain these bonuses along with the racial bonuses they already get. That's why some creatures have odd numbers for ability scores. Edit: Fixed multiple spelling errors due to intense heat...ugh...
SpaceMonkey 06-09-04, 05:50 PM	NightScreamer, are you saying that a 6th level ranger/troll NPC and a 6th level ranger/troll PC would have a difference of ability points if both were made using the standard elite array (or any other system, as long as both used it and got equal starting scores before any additions)? Simply because of one's status as a PC? I don't think that is correct, not from what I have read anyway. I believe that the troll stats, as presented, already include the bonus for his 4th level of 'troll' (or giant type if you prefer), and that he would not get that bonus again, or be denied it simply because he was a PC or NPC, respectively. I would certainly allow a player to re-assign that point as he saw fit, to put it into wisdom (if he were making a troll cleric) for example, but I would not let it be included already (as I believe it to be) and then add it again because he is classing the monster. Any further advancement, by class or monster hit dice, would add ability points every 4th as normal, of course, for a PC or an NPC with no difference. While the average PC may have better scores than an NPC, this is due solely to better starting scores (the PC rolls 4d6 instead of taking the elite array, for example) and not any difference in bonuses bases solely on status as a PC. If you can find evidence that this is incorrect, please let me know, as I would be very interested to look at it. ---------------------------------------- As for the 2 point difference on the troll ranger stats, I am leaning towards it being a mistake. I have found no reason for him to have those 2 extra points, and with no errata I can only assume it to be either a mistake of using a different starting score or scores for ability points and not making a note of it, or of not including equipment (say he has a magical item that grants him a +2 to an ability, not too far out there for a 12th level npc), or simply an error in math. (or of course something I'm missing) I would like to know which it is, but as there is no errata I guess I'm stuck until some comes out, or someone points out something I missed...
NightScreamer20 06-09-04, 06:42 PM	NightScreamer, are you saying that a 6th level ranger/troll NPC and a 6th level ranger/troll PC would have a difference of ability points if both were made using the standard elite array (or any other system, as long as both used it and got equal starting scores before any additions)? Simply because of one's status as a PC? Simply...Yes. But it's true for all Monster Races. Are you telling me that all PC Trolls have the same statistics? I hope not. The Troll in the MM is the AVERAGE Troll. A PC is a Hero, or Villain, but either way is supposed to be more powerful than the rest of it's kind. I don't think that is correct, not from what I have read anyway. I believe that the troll stats, as presented, already include the bonus for his 4th level of 'troll' (or giant type if you prefer), and that he would not get that bonus again, or be denied it simply because he was a PC or NPC, respectively. They do, I never said they didn't. What I mean is that if you make a Troll PC you roll out ability scores, then add in the racial ability score increases (or decreases) and then level them up. I would certainly allow a player to re-assign that point as he saw fit, to put it into wisdom (if he were making a troll cleric) for example, but I would not let it be included already (as I believe it to be) and then add it again because he is classing the monster. Any further advancement, by class or monster hit dice, would add ability points every 4th as normal, of course, for a PC or an NPC with no difference. While the average PC may have better scores than an NPC, this is due solely to better starting scores (the PC rolls 4d6 instead of taking the elite array, for example) and not any difference in bonuses bases solely on status as a PC. Oh I see where this is going. I'm sorry I was unclear. This is what I ment. The point is ALREADY added in the MM, and like I said when you make a character he doesn't have those points, only his base rolls and the base racial ability increases. As he levels up you can add in those points WHEN you get them. If you can find evidence that this is incorrect, please let me know, as I would be very interested to look at it. You are correct, I just either mis-understood or because of the insane heat (now gone because got my AC working HUZZAH!). Sorry for making such a big debate even though I'm trying to agree with you. Lol. As for the 2 point difference on the troll ranger stats, I am leaning towards it being a mistake. I have found no reason for him to have those 2 extra points, and with no errata I can only assume it to be either a mistake of using a different starting score or scores for ability points and not making a note of it, or of not including equipment (say he has a magical item that grants him a +2 to an ability, not too far out there for a 12th level npc), or simply an error in math. (or of course something I'm missing) Either that or they rolled stats for it and never put in what stats they rolled...Interesting.
SpaceMonkey 06-09-04, 07:07 PM	You are correct, I just either mis-understood or because of the insane heat (now gone because got my AC working HUZZAH!). Looks like we wer saying the same thing from 2 different angles (I was saying the point(s) were already added in and you could reshuffle them, and you were saying that a player could put them in 'when he got them', as in as he was building the character.) Sorry for making such a big debate even though I'm trying to agree with you. Lol. No big deal. I am glad, actually. I wanted to make sure of what you were saying because if I was wrong on this point, it could account for some of the troll ranger discrepency I am seeing. Oh well, guess I won't be figuring that out today. Either that or they rolled stats for it and never put in what stats they rolled...Interesting. yeah, I had thought about that as well (though with the new attitude in 3.5 and all, I don't think they would have used a non-standard array, and certainly would have put a note about it if they did it on purpose - even the orc warrior's original stats, which use one of the standard arrays, are listed.) really makes me think a portion of the troll ranger's stats got cut somewhere, either an equipment section like the Frost giant Jarl has or a note about the starting ability scores and where they were placed like the orc warrior. or it could still always be just a simple error in math ;) anyway, I mostly wanted to know if I was missing something or was looking at it the wrong way, but it seems that I've pretty much got it right and there is some strangeness there somewhere. I guess that's good enough for now. Makes me wonder how many mistakes there are in the MM though, and why we haven't seen any errata for this one yet, while the PH and DMG have had errata files for months and months already...
Walter Russ 06-11-04, 02:26 AM	Space Monkey, You are entirely correct, something is a little out of whack with the Troll Ranger. From my count, it should get an extra ability point at 2nd and 6th level Ranger (8 and 12 Hit Dice), and the designers used the "Elitie Array" of ability scores (15,14,13,12,10,8), as they are supposed to with classed entries. However, once you "reverse-engineer" it's abilities, it seems to have started out as 15/14/14/13/10/8. Here's what I get: STR: 13 (start) + 12 (Racial) = 25 DEX: 8 (start) + 4 (Racial) = 12 CON: 10 (start) + 12 (Racial) = 22 INT: 14 (start) - 4 (Racial) = 10 WIS: 15 (start) - 2 (Racial) + 2 (2nd,6th) = 15 CHA: 14 (start) - 4 (Racial) = 10 Since the skill points allocated confirm the Troll must have a 10 INT, the error must be in it's Charisma. It should probably be 8, starting at 12 in the Elite Array. Or you could say he has a +2 Headband of Charisma, though why he would have that seems unlikely. As for your question about other errors, I have gone through a good chunk of the MM 3.5 to "reverse engineer" the monsters just to see how many ranks of what skill they have and have found several errors in calculations. Most are perfect, but I have found a number of cases where the skill points aren't done correctly. As for classed entries, I know the Aboleth Mage and Archon Hero both add up, but haven't got to the others yet. Hope this helps!