3.5 Outsiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Outsiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
shwack
04-20-04, 02:54 PM I'm very pleased that the outsiders from v3.0 got some much needed upgrading in 3.5. The marilith was supposed to be CR 17, but had only 85 HP and not that great an AC or SR. The versions presented in the new MM are much more reasonable, but the monster manual 2, fiend folio, monsters of faerun, etc.... all have outdated, wimpy paragons of evil. Has anyone developed 3.5 stats for these guys? or has anyone got a good method for doing it?
Ogre4Hire
04-20-04, 04:02 PM With the exception of the Yugoloths (who I've been rather outspoken about on the MotP board), I feel that most of the fiends in the MM2 and FF are quite powerful. Are you talking just from looking at their stats or did you fight some and find them underwhelming for their power level?

If it was the latter, then it was probably because the DM didn't do a particularly good job of running them, or the party was either exceptionally lucky or extremely well equipped to fight them.
R.M.G.C.L.F.
04-20-04, 04:07 PM I fail to see how 3.5 changes would power up any monster. They might slightly weaken it by lowering the DR and making those /+2's through /+5's useless, but I cannot thing of any boosts it might provide.
Freefall
04-20-04, 05:04 PM Originally posted by R.M.G.C.L.F.
I fail to see how 3.5 changes would power up any monster. They might slightly weaken it by lowering the DR and making those /+2's through /+5's useless, but I cannot thing of any boosts it might provide.

You should break out MM 3.0 and compare it to MM 3.5. Just about every demon and devil got decent increases to their HP, AC, and a number of attributes. They are far more powerful now than they used to be. I think some of the upper planar outsiders got boosts too (Leonals look tougher than they did in MotP), but I don't think it was quite as drastic.

Someone did an update of the Yugoloths on here a while ago. Try searching for a thread titled "yugoloths" (or something like that; there might have been more words in the title, like "revised yugoloths"; can't quite remember) and you should be able to find them eventually.
R.M.G.C.L.F.
04-20-04, 05:15 PM But that was because of changes made on an individual basis. I mere conversion will not change much of anything about the power level.
Freefall
04-20-04, 05:44 PM I don't think he's asking for them to be converted so that they are merely in line with 3.5 rules (which is, as you mentioned, virtually no change), I think he's more asking how powerful people think some of those creatures would be if they had been written with the 3.5 MM in mind rather than the 3.0 MM in mind, since presumably the various outsiders in FF and MMII were created with the fiends and outsiders in the 3.0 MM as the measuring stick. Those things that were designed to be more powerful than Balors in FF were far more threatening to the 3.0 Balor than the 3.5 Balor, so if they had been written after 3.5 came out they would presumably be proportionally more powerful (if they wanted to keep the flavor).

This is basically the same as all those BoVD arguments for giving the Demon Princes and Archdevils many more HD and increasing their attributes: Back in 3.0 they could smack around Balors and Pit Fiends no problem, even if you advanced them a lot of HD. But now a Balor or Pit Fiend can be advanced only halfway (maybe less) and kick around the archfiends.
d_nychus
04-20-04, 06:58 PM Originally posted by R.M.G.C.L.F.
I fail to see how 3.5 changes would power up any monster. They might slightly weaken it by lowering the DR and making those /+2's through /+5's useless, but I cannot thing of any boosts it might provide.

Those +2s to +5s were already useless to anyone who knew the spell Greater Magic Weapon, so that point is utterly moot. The changes to DR actually heavily improved severl outsiders by requiring multiple types of attacks to bypass the DR. Take the 3.0 pit fiend and compare it to the 3.5 pit fiend.

In 3.0, it took one spell that lasted all day to overcome not only the pit fiend's DR, but absolutely any thing else's DR. Honestly, you were a fool to actually buy magic weapons in 3.0 higher than +1, because GMW was so good.

If you did NOT have a GMW (really bad idea in 3.0) or a +3 holy weapon (which is dirt cheap by the time you get to the level you could successfully face a pit fiend), it would be virtually invincible.

In 3.5, it actually has to cost money for the character (at least by the core), and he has to be specifically set up to fight the pit fiend. A holy silver sword is certainly perfect for defeating a pit fiend, but dealing with its iron golem creation that requires adamantine to bypass DR is a whole other story. DR actually matters.

If you DIDN'T have the right tools for the job, beating the pit fiend is still possible, but it would take a lot longer, and cost more resources. It rewards good planning, but allows for the PCs to win out normally, as it should.

So, in the end, 3.5 DR changes definately did improve the use and playbility of outsiders.
shwack
04-20-04, 07:49 PM thanks for the response. i guess no one has done that yet. to those of you who didn't understand what i was asking about, look at the maralith in the 3.0 and 3.5 versions. she was supposed to be CR 17 in each, but she went from 9 HD and 85 hp, to 16 HD and 218 hp, and from an attack bonus of +13 to +25. they dropped a few spell like abilities, but added 26 to her ability scores. despite the flavor text that said they loved physical combat, there's no way they could ever hit anything in the 3.0 version and it only took 1 or 2 good hits to take her out. in 3.5 she's finally worth of being CR 17.

the outsiders in the fiend folio, and monster manual 2, and the book of vile darkness suffer from the same vulnerabilities i think. in the epic campiagn i'm running i needed some big demons and thought the massive guys in the fiend folio might fit the bill, but he requires a bit of work before he'll be able to stand up to any punishment. as he's written he seems quite a bit weaker than the new pit fiend so it looks like i'll be adding a few points to each of his ability scores and at least 5 HD.

i was just hoping someone else had already done the dirty work so i wouldn't have to worry about how balanced he'd be when i'm done.

ogre4hire: being powerful is all relative. take the maurezhi(tanar'ri) in the fiend folio, for example. he can certainly wipe the floor with a party of 4 1st level characters, and he won't even slow down a party of 4 20th level characters. but his CR 9 indicates he's supposed to be a suitable challenge for a group of 4 9th level characters. that said, he's not even close to being powerful enough for that, one charge attack from a 9th level warrior will take him out (ac 15 with 27 hit points) or not too many arrows so i can't agree that he's quite powerful.

r.m.g.c.l.f. it's not the changes inherent in the system, the outsiders were way under powered and they got re-stated in v3.5 to bring them up to snuff. take a look and compare the two.

freefall: thanks for the heads up. i'll check it out, but i was hoping to find info on the demons especially.
SerialXp
04-21-04, 02:55 AM The outsiders from the fiend folio and the monster maual II are very weak too... The Klurichir as stated in the fiend folio isn´t even close to CR 24... To tell the truth they are weaker than a CR 20 3.5 Balor...
cwslyclgh
04-21-04, 03:08 AM I won't coment on the fiend folio demons/devils becausealthough I have looke dthem over I have not used any of them... the MM2 on the other hand varried a great dealin power level... some (Such as the Abyssal Ravager) were way underpowered for their CR, while others (such as the Malebranche) were very powerful for thier listed CR's
Kain Darkwind
04-21-04, 06:00 AM Here are the links to some monsters that I upgaded for that very purpose you speak of, shwack. Hope you enjoy them. Feel free to comment on them on this thread or where they are at.

Malebranche (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=220)
Goristro (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=227)
Ultraloth (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=229)
Nycoloth (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=231)
Gelugon (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=541)
Narzugon (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=828)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shwack 04-20-04, 02:54 PM	I'm very pleased that the outsiders from v3.0 got some much needed upgrading in 3.5. The marilith was supposed to be CR 17, but had only 85 HP and not that great an AC or SR. The versions presented in the new MM are much more reasonable, but the monster manual 2, fiend folio, monsters of faerun, etc.... all have outdated, wimpy paragons of evil. Has anyone developed 3.5 stats for these guys? or has anyone got a good method for doing it?
Ogre4Hire 04-20-04, 04:02 PM	With the exception of the Yugoloths (who I've been rather outspoken about on the MotP board), I feel that most of the fiends in the MM2 and FF are quite powerful. Are you talking just from looking at their stats or did you fight some and find them underwhelming for their power level? If it was the latter, then it was probably because the DM didn't do a particularly good job of running them, or the party was either exceptionally lucky or extremely well equipped to fight them.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-20-04, 04:07 PM	I fail to see how 3.5 changes would power up any monster. They might slightly weaken it by lowering the DR and making those /+2's through /+5's useless, but I cannot thing of any boosts it might provide.
Freefall 04-20-04, 05:04 PM	Originally posted by R.M.G.C.L.F. I fail to see how 3.5 changes would power up any monster. They might slightly weaken it by lowering the DR and making those /+2's through /+5's useless, but I cannot thing of any boosts it might provide. You should break out MM 3.0 and compare it to MM 3.5. Just about every demon and devil got decent increases to their HP, AC, and a number of attributes. They are far more powerful now than they used to be. I think some of the upper planar outsiders got boosts too (Leonals look tougher than they did in MotP), but I don't think it was quite as drastic. Someone did an update of the Yugoloths on here a while ago. Try searching for a thread titled "yugoloths" (or something like that; there might have been more words in the title, like "revised yugoloths"; can't quite remember) and you should be able to find them eventually.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-20-04, 05:15 PM	But that was because of changes made on an individual basis. I mere conversion will not change much of anything about the power level.
Freefall 04-20-04, 05:44 PM	I don't think he's asking for them to be converted so that they are merely in line with 3.5 rules (which is, as you mentioned, virtually no change), I think he's more asking how powerful people think some of those creatures would be if they had been written with the 3.5 MM in mind rather than the 3.0 MM in mind, since presumably the various outsiders in FF and MMII were created with the fiends and outsiders in the 3.0 MM as the measuring stick. Those things that were designed to be more powerful than Balors in FF were far more threatening to the 3.0 Balor than the 3.5 Balor, so if they had been written after 3.5 came out they would presumably be proportionally more powerful (if they wanted to keep the flavor). This is basically the same as all those BoVD arguments for giving the Demon Princes and Archdevils many more HD and increasing their attributes: Back in 3.0 they could smack around Balors and Pit Fiends no problem, even if you advanced them a lot of HD. But now a Balor or Pit Fiend can be advanced only halfway (maybe less) and kick around the archfiends.
d_nychus 04-20-04, 06:58 PM	Originally posted by R.M.G.C.L.F. I fail to see how 3.5 changes would power up any monster. They might slightly weaken it by lowering the DR and making those /+2's through /+5's useless, but I cannot thing of any boosts it might provide. Those +2s to +5s were already useless to anyone who knew the spell Greater Magic Weapon, so that point is utterly moot. The changes to DR actually heavily improved severl outsiders by requiring multiple types of attacks to bypass the DR. Take the 3.0 pit fiend and compare it to the 3.5 pit fiend. In 3.0, it took one spell that lasted all day to overcome not only the pit fiend's DR, but absolutely any thing else's DR. Honestly, you were a fool to actually buy magic weapons in 3.0 higher than +1, because GMW was so good. If you did NOT have a GMW (really bad idea in 3.0) or a +3 holy weapon (which is dirt cheap by the time you get to the level you could successfully face a pit fiend), it would be virtually invincible. In 3.5, it actually has to cost money for the character (at least by the core), and he has to be specifically set up to fight the pit fiend. A holy silver sword is certainly perfect for defeating a pit fiend, but dealing with its iron golem creation that requires adamantine to bypass DR is a whole other story. DR actually matters. If you DIDN'T have the right tools for the job, beating the pit fiend is still possible, but it would take a lot longer, and cost more resources. It rewards good planning, but allows for the PCs to win out normally, as it should. So, in the end, 3.5 DR changes definately did improve the use and playbility of outsiders.
shwack 04-20-04, 07:49 PM	thanks for the response. i guess no one has done that yet. to those of you who didn't understand what i was asking about, look at the maralith in the 3.0 and 3.5 versions. she was supposed to be CR 17 in each, but she went from 9 HD and 85 hp, to 16 HD and 218 hp, and from an attack bonus of +13 to +25. they dropped a few spell like abilities, but added 26 to her ability scores. despite the flavor text that said they loved physical combat, there's no way they could ever hit anything in the 3.0 version and it only took 1 or 2 good hits to take her out. in 3.5 she's finally worth of being CR 17. the outsiders in the fiend folio, and monster manual 2, and the book of vile darkness suffer from the same vulnerabilities i think. in the epic campiagn i'm running i needed some big demons and thought the massive guys in the fiend folio might fit the bill, but he requires a bit of work before he'll be able to stand up to any punishment. as he's written he seems quite a bit weaker than the new pit fiend so it looks like i'll be adding a few points to each of his ability scores and at least 5 HD. i was just hoping someone else had already done the dirty work so i wouldn't have to worry about how balanced he'd be when i'm done. ogre4hire: being powerful is all relative. take the maurezhi(tanar'ri) in the fiend folio, for example. he can certainly wipe the floor with a party of 4 1st level characters, and he won't even slow down a party of 4 20th level characters. but his CR 9 indicates he's supposed to be a suitable challenge for a group of 4 9th level characters. that said, he's not even close to being powerful enough for that, one charge attack from a 9th level warrior will take him out (ac 15 with 27 hit points) or not too many arrows so i can't agree that he's quite powerful. r.m.g.c.l.f. it's not the changes inherent in the system, the outsiders were way under powered and they got re-stated in v3.5 to bring them up to snuff. take a look and compare the two. freefall: thanks for the heads up. i'll check it out, but i was hoping to find info on the demons especially.
SerialXp 04-21-04, 02:55 AM	The outsiders from the fiend folio and the monster maual II are very weak too... The Klurichir as stated in the fiend folio isn´t even close to CR 24... To tell the truth they are weaker than a CR 20 3.5 Balor...
cwslyclgh 04-21-04, 03:08 AM	I won't coment on the fiend folio demons/devils becausealthough I have looke dthem over I have not used any of them... the MM2 on the other hand varried a great dealin power level... some (Such as the Abyssal Ravager) were way underpowered for their CR, while others (such as the Malebranche) were very powerful for thier listed CR's
Kain Darkwind 04-21-04, 06:00 AM	Here are the links to some monsters that I upgaded for that very purpose you speak of, shwack. Hope you enjoy them. Feel free to comment on them on this thread or where they are at. Malebranche (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=220) Goristro (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=227) Ultraloth (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=229) Nycoloth (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=231) Gelugon (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=541) Narzugon (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=828)