3.5 troll [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

3.5 troll [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lilian The Lady Ghost
04-18-06, 05:42 AM They're slightly less powerful than 3.0 ones, maybe too little difference to give it a lower CR, but does their level adjustment change/should change?
dok
04-18-06, 12:41 PM They're slightly less powerful than 3.0 ones...

Ummmm, no they're not. Trolls have the same Hit dice, ability scores, natural attacks, attack bonuses, damage bonuses, and regeneration under 3.5 that they do in 3.0; the only differences I could see between the two were the 3.5 Troll has one more feat, and two points less natural armor. That's not enough of a distinction to change either CR or LA.
DungeonMaster
04-18-06, 04:55 PM It is weaker like most 3.5 monsters but I agree with dok: 2 less AC is not worth changing the LA on the monster.
Lilian The Lady Ghost
04-18-06, 08:41 PM I see, thank you :)
Tony111
04-18-06, 09:27 PM weaker like most 3.5 monsters

Surely you jest. My impression of the game is that 3.5 monsters are more powerful than 3.0 monsters at the same CR. This is especially true of outsiders (vrock, for example).

-Tony
runestar
04-18-06, 11:42 PM If you think their AC is too low, then just give them leather armour to make up for the disparity. Its armour check penalty 0, so it won't hamper them in the least.
DungeonMaster
04-19-06, 11:18 AM Surely you jest. My impression of the game is that 3.5 monsters are more powerful than 3.0 monsters at the same CR. This is especially true of outsiders (vrock, for example).

No not at all. Most 3.5 monsters are in fact overall weaker for their CR, which is the only measure of strength we can really use.
A good example of a monster that got kicked in the nads is the Titan which is literally a push-over for his 3rd edition counterpart.
Outsiders actually lost a significant chunk of their good abilities. If you take a CR 18 3rd edition balor and use 3rd edition advancement rules to make it CR 20 then you end up with a monster that looks stat-wise almost identical except the 3rd edition balor has symbol at will as well as wall of fire, pyrotechnics , unhallow , unholy blight and still more. There are many subtle nerfs as well such as the vorpal weapon working only on a 20 in 3.5.
Some non-666 outsiders like the noble salamander got CR increased with virtually no change or were weakened.
The vrock was stripped of its "big gun" 8th level spell like ability mass charm so they had to drop off its CR significantly along with the loss of AC, darkness, resistances, DR and SR. It's mostly redesigned for a different style of combat - physical - which demons and devils are still pretty terrible at compared to say, vermin or giants or dragons.

That's not to say the system isn't self contained. Core (I stress core rules) PCs are weaker too in 3.5 with crappier spells, worse gear and generally weaker feats and abilities so it all works out in the end.
Freefall
04-19-06, 06:55 PM No not at all. Most 3.5 monsters are in fact overall weaker for their CR, which is the only measure of strength we can really use.

Not really. CR is an estimate of a creature's overall combat effectiveness against PCs, not an intrinsic quality that they have, like their HD or strength. There are plenty of monsters that people generally consider to have a higher or lower CR than is truly warranted. If you take the idea that monsters between editions are comparable mainly by CR, then there are two major assumptions you are making. 1) All the CRs in the monster manuals in both 3.0 and 3.5 are right on the mark; 2) That the rules for advancement in both editions are perfectly sound.

I would argue with both of these. I think that nearly anything in the MM above CR 7 or so could be estimated at least 1 CR higher or lower. Plenty of people think that the Tarrasque is pathetic for a CR 20 critter, for example, while there are a few others who still think it is almost unbeatable. Go figure.

I'm also quite skeptical that a 60 HD Balor in 3.5 is actually a CR 40 monster, considering that the advancement rules, by themselves, include nothing for increasing SR, DR, caster level for SLAs, upgrades for equipment, and so forth. I'm similarly skeptical that 3.0 rules for advancement were accurate. Didn't they have some weird thing where you need to increase HD by 50% to increase CR by 1? That's just rediculous. There's no way increasing HD by (potentially) that much is only worth a +1 CR. Furthermore, if the initial estimate of the CR is off by even a little bit, then advancing a creature in this manner will just make it more and more wrong the more you advance it.

If you're going to compare CRs, I would say at least restrict it to base CRs. So compare a 3.0 Pit Fiend to a 3.5 Glabrezu maybe (or whichever pairs are about equal CR) and see who is tougher there. I will agree though, that losing all those SLAs really sucked (Pit Fiends can't even polymorph themselves anymore).

Um, back to the Troll. Troll's start out pretty tough in either edition. It sounds like the difference in their abilities is fairly small, especially considering their ECL. Not enough to warrant a change in LA (In order to lower his LA you'd basically have to argue that the difference in power is enough to be worth giving him a whole extra monster level).
DungeonMaster
04-20-06, 02:09 PM What you said about CR is true, it's not an intrinsic quality of the creature and many people disagree to within a few points.
Unless the game is a status quo style, when applying the rules per the book if I'm level 12 in a 3rd edition game I can encounter a pit-fiend. CR 16 falls within the "very difficult" 15% bracket of EL 1-4 higher than party level (p.102 DMG). That's a pretty damn tough fight, you better be both sharp and lucky to come out without a TPK.

My personal opinion on monster advancement is that neither 3rd edition nor 3.5 got it quite right. At low levels adding 1 HD to 1 CR ala 3.5 is fairly accurate in my opinion. At high levels 5 HD isn't even noticeable and not worth +5 CR. A percentage works better but 50% for 1 CR is quite steep, in fact a little too steep in my experience. 35% per CR seems about right from experience. The size increase helps when they pass a certain HD though.

Comparing the 3.5 cornugon to the 3rd edition pitfiend is CR 16 vs. CR 16 base:

The cornugon really has 1 option, launch himself into mellee and try to stun+fear as many things as he can. It should be buffed with dispel good+chaos that brings his AC up to an impressive 39 and the magic circle is useful against summoned creatures but doesn't stack with dispel good. He should have many illusions to initially confuse PCs up and active. If he knows the PCs are coming/can retreat he can 20% of the time get another cornugon, only the barbed devils can offer a few new spells to his arsenal in the form of unholy blight and hold person.

The pit fiend has many options. Right off the bat he has meteor swarm and symbol. His lair should be littered with symbols of persuasion, death, fear, insanity and pain. Persuasion is my favorite because it changes creatures to lawful evil and charms them. The lair would be warded by desecrate and unhallow to which it can tie any number of effects to it, preferably darkness to benefit from devil vision. It should be buffed with unholy aura, magic circle against good, improved invisibility and polymorph self. Unholy aura makes its AC 34, not shabby, but polymorph can make that much higher if it so choses such as changing into an ancient black dragon.
It can furthermore dispel magic, litter an area with firewalls and pyrotechnic ash. If given time and preparation raise a small contigent of desecrate enhanced undead shadows, wights, zombies, etc... it can automatically acquire a gelugon to add cone of cold to all its fire damage as well as wall of ice. Or get some osyluth to dimensional anchor pesky teleporting PCs as well as more walls of ice. Or an Eriyes for their stupid-strong Charm person gaze and unholy blight at will. It can cover the summoned creatures with improved invis and unholy aura as well. And it can stun-lock PCs with blasphemy (no save) while the undead and summoned critters kick the crap out of the PCs.

I think the 3.5 cornugon doesn't have anywhere near the same power level. Really they're different beasts, one to be used in kick-down-the-door play and the other much more intricate and evil.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lilian The Lady Ghost 04-18-06, 05:42 AM	They're slightly less powerful than 3.0 ones, maybe too little difference to give it a lower CR, but does their level adjustment change/should change?
dok 04-18-06, 12:41 PM	They're slightly less powerful than 3.0 ones... Ummmm, no they're not. Trolls have the same Hit dice, ability scores, natural attacks, attack bonuses, damage bonuses, and regeneration under 3.5 that they do in 3.0; the only differences I could see between the two were the 3.5 Troll has one more feat, and two points less natural armor. That's not enough of a distinction to change either CR or LA.
DungeonMaster 04-18-06, 04:55 PM	It is weaker like most 3.5 monsters but I agree with dok: 2 less AC is not worth changing the LA on the monster.
Lilian The Lady Ghost 04-18-06, 08:41 PM	I see, thank you :)
Tony111 04-18-06, 09:27 PM	weaker like most 3.5 monsters Surely you jest. My impression of the game is that 3.5 monsters are more powerful than 3.0 monsters at the same CR. This is especially true of outsiders (vrock, for example). -Tony
runestar 04-18-06, 11:42 PM	If you think their AC is too low, then just give them leather armour to make up for the disparity. Its armour check penalty 0, so it won't hamper them in the least.
DungeonMaster 04-19-06, 11:18 AM	Surely you jest. My impression of the game is that 3.5 monsters are more powerful than 3.0 monsters at the same CR. This is especially true of outsiders (vrock, for example). No not at all. Most 3.5 monsters are in fact overall weaker for their CR, which is the only measure of strength we can really use. A good example of a monster that got kicked in the nads is the Titan which is literally a push-over for his 3rd edition counterpart. Outsiders actually lost a significant chunk of their good abilities. If you take a CR 18 3rd edition balor and use 3rd edition advancement rules to make it CR 20 then you end up with a monster that looks stat-wise almost identical except the 3rd edition balor has symbol at will as well as wall of fire, pyrotechnics , unhallow , unholy blight and still more. There are many subtle nerfs as well such as the vorpal weapon working only on a 20 in 3.5. Some non-666 outsiders like the noble salamander got CR increased with virtually no change or were weakened. The vrock was stripped of its "big gun" 8th level spell like ability mass charm so they had to drop off its CR significantly along with the loss of AC, darkness, resistances, DR and SR. It's mostly redesigned for a different style of combat - physical - which demons and devils are still pretty terrible at compared to say, vermin or giants or dragons. That's not to say the system isn't self contained. Core (I stress core rules) PCs are weaker too in 3.5 with crappier spells, worse gear and generally weaker feats and abilities so it all works out in the end.
Freefall 04-19-06, 06:55 PM	No not at all. Most 3.5 monsters are in fact overall weaker for their CR, which is the only measure of strength we can really use. Not really. CR is an estimate of a creature's overall combat effectiveness against PCs, not an intrinsic quality that they have, like their HD or strength. There are plenty of monsters that people generally consider to have a higher or lower CR than is truly warranted. If you take the idea that monsters between editions are comparable mainly by CR, then there are two major assumptions you are making. 1) All the CRs in the monster manuals in both 3.0 and 3.5 are right on the mark; 2) That the rules for advancement in both editions are perfectly sound. I would argue with both of these. I think that nearly anything in the MM above CR 7 or so could be estimated at least 1 CR higher or lower. Plenty of people think that the Tarrasque is pathetic for a CR 20 critter, for example, while there are a few others who still think it is almost unbeatable. Go figure. I'm also quite skeptical that a 60 HD Balor in 3.5 is actually a CR 40 monster, considering that the advancement rules, by themselves, include nothing for increasing SR, DR, caster level for SLAs, upgrades for equipment, and so forth. I'm similarly skeptical that 3.0 rules for advancement were accurate. Didn't they have some weird thing where you need to increase HD by 50% to increase CR by 1? That's just rediculous. There's no way increasing HD by (potentially) that much is only worth a +1 CR. Furthermore, if the initial estimate of the CR is off by even a little bit, then advancing a creature in this manner will just make it more and more wrong the more you advance it. If you're going to compare CRs, I would say at least restrict it to base CRs. So compare a 3.0 Pit Fiend to a 3.5 Glabrezu maybe (or whichever pairs are about equal CR) and see who is tougher there. I will agree though, that losing all those SLAs really sucked (Pit Fiends can't even polymorph themselves anymore). Um, back to the Troll. Troll's start out pretty tough in either edition. It sounds like the difference in their abilities is fairly small, especially considering their ECL. Not enough to warrant a change in LA (In order to lower his LA you'd basically have to argue that the difference in power is enough to be worth giving him a whole extra monster level).
DungeonMaster 04-20-06, 02:09 PM	What you said about CR is true, it's not an intrinsic quality of the creature and many people disagree to within a few points. Unless the game is a status quo style, when applying the rules per the book if I'm level 12 in a 3rd edition game I can encounter a pit-fiend. CR 16 falls within the "very difficult" 15% bracket of EL 1-4 higher than party level (p.102 DMG). That's a pretty damn tough fight, you better be both sharp and lucky to come out without a TPK. My personal opinion on monster advancement is that neither 3rd edition nor 3.5 got it quite right. At low levels adding 1 HD to 1 CR ala 3.5 is fairly accurate in my opinion. At high levels 5 HD isn't even noticeable and not worth +5 CR. A percentage works better but 50% for 1 CR is quite steep, in fact a little too steep in my experience. 35% per CR seems about right from experience. The size increase helps when they pass a certain HD though. Comparing the 3.5 cornugon to the 3rd edition pitfiend is CR 16 vs. CR 16 base: The cornugon really has 1 option, launch himself into mellee and try to stun+fear as many things as he can. It should be buffed with dispel good+chaos that brings his AC up to an impressive 39 and the magic circle is useful against summoned creatures but doesn't stack with dispel good. He should have many illusions to initially confuse PCs up and active. If he knows the PCs are coming/can retreat he can 20% of the time get another cornugon, only the barbed devils can offer a few new spells to his arsenal in the form of unholy blight and hold person. The pit fiend has many options. Right off the bat he has meteor swarm and symbol. His lair should be littered with symbols of persuasion, death, fear, insanity and pain. Persuasion is my favorite because it changes creatures to lawful evil and charms them. The lair would be warded by desecrate and unhallow to which it can tie any number of effects to it, preferably darkness to benefit from devil vision. It should be buffed with unholy aura, magic circle against good, improved invisibility and polymorph self. Unholy aura makes its AC 34, not shabby, but polymorph can make that much higher if it so choses such as changing into an ancient black dragon. It can furthermore dispel magic, litter an area with firewalls and pyrotechnic ash. If given time and preparation raise a small contigent of desecrate enhanced undead shadows, wights, zombies, etc... it can automatically acquire a gelugon to add cone of cold to all its fire damage as well as wall of ice. Or get some osyluth to dimensional anchor pesky teleporting PCs as well as more walls of ice. Or an Eriyes for their stupid-strong Charm person gaze and unholy blight at will. It can cover the summoned creatures with improved invis and unholy aura as well. And it can stun-lock PCs with blasphemy (no save) while the undead and summoned critters kick the crap out of the PCs. I think the 3.5 cornugon doesn't have anywhere near the same power level. Really they're different beasts, one to be used in kick-down-the-door play and the other much more intricate and evil.