?CR of druid animal companions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

?CR of druid animal companions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cammobeast
07-27-05, 09:05 PM i have a nemisis for the pc's who is a druid. the druid is real bad news and the pc's have a long way to go before they can confront her.
i was planning on using some animal companions of hers as "sub bosses" for a few of the adventures. is there a published rule for deciding the CR for animal compainions? if there is no rule published, is there anything like a greyhawk house rule?
if someone could give me a rule to use for this situation, id be really happy. if wizards or the other orginizations dont have a rule for this sort of thing id be shocked. i cant imagine that no other GM has wanted a situation like this for a familiar, a mount or whatever in their game.
Seraph of Babel
07-27-05, 10:42 PM Technically an animal companion has no CR, since it is a "class feature". The challenge it poses is accounted for by the druid's CR. It's just like when a spellcaster summons a monster, the creature is a "spell effect" and has no CR (and thus gives no XP).

But if the PCs encountered the animal companion without the druid, then I'd give an ad hoc CR = CR of the base animal +1 per 2 extra HD due to high druid levels.
cammobeast
07-28-05, 05:04 PM thanks for you help. i was hoping for an official rule. ive read about how they have no CR, and understand why they are directly associated with the druids CR. i cant believe that none of the wirters ever considered that a party may encounter a familiar of a powerful wizard long before they encounter him, or the animal compainion in this case. i was hoping (since the druid was evil and wouldnt mind sacrifising animals) that i could encounter a system that would allow the druid to take her time and summon animal compaions to be lesser opponents at the end of each adventure, until the party aquires enough XP to go after the druid.
SgtHulka
07-28-05, 05:21 PM On the contrary, I think the rule is quite clear. The PC's who kill an animal companion don't gain any experience until they also kill the druid.

As for familiars, you don't get experience for killing them, either. However, the wizard who "owns" the familiar takes a nasty xp hit and loses some neat bonuses like alertness and saving throw bonuses.

You're already giving the PC's an advantage by having them fight the animal companion first. It's easier to kill the animal companion, because the ac doesn't have it's druid there to help support it. It's easier to kill the driud, later, because the druid doesn't have the ac to help support him. By seperating the combatants, you're making each of them significantly easier to defeat. I would argue that you shouldn't give the PC's more experience for this, but less.

Instead of using the animal companion(s) to help build up their experience, give the druid a number of well-trained regular animals/magical beasts. The druid's got animal empathy, and he should have a pretty high handle animal roll. And he's likely got all the time in the world. He should be able to train an army's worth of worgs, dire wolves, dire bats, flying monkeys, huge vipers, or whatever to do his bidding. These animals you can provide experience for, because they aren't a class feature.
The Abominable Darkling
07-28-05, 05:41 PM Technically an animal companion has no CR, since it is a "class feature". The challenge it poses is accounted for by the druid's CR. It's just like when a spellcaster summons a monster, the creature is a "spell effect" and has no CR (and thus gives no XP).
On the contrary, I think the rule is quite clear. The PC's who kill an animal companion don't gain any experience until they also kill the druid.
This is utter nonsense. This is no rule saying that you should deny the players XP for animal companions, cohorts, or any other sort of permanent companion.

The logic behind the summoning rule is that the caster had to spend resources (an action and a spell) during the fight to summon the creature. This should be treated no differently than if they had spent resources to do something else (like cast fireball, for instance). Obviously, this reasoning does not apply to animal companions.

Also, consider this: if the players fought a druid and a trained brown bear (not the druid's animal companion) they would certainly get XP for both. Now your claim is that if you make the brown bear the druid's companion, not only does the bear get a lot tougher, but it also robs the PCs of their XP. That's absurd.

Unfortunately, the rules do not specify what the CR of an animal companion should be. I suggested taking the base animal's CR and adding +1 per 4 HD.
cammobeast
07-28-05, 06:17 PM also when dealing with animal compaions and not familiars,.. if you you encounter a powerful druid's animal compaion and that druid is encountered in a seperate (and distant) adventure, that animal will have been replaced without any XP cost to the druid (unlike familiars). particularly if the druid is evil and dosent mind expending large numbers of animal companions. i think i will probably go with the suggestion to use other animals/magic beasts controlled by wild empathy (because i like to keep the rules all official). is there someplace on this site that i can submit suggestions to Wizards? this would be a good thing for them to consider for the future.
The Abominable Darkling
07-28-05, 06:33 PM Send it to custserv@wizards.com; make sure to include D&D in the subject line.
cammobeast
07-28-05, 08:58 PM thanks
Fiery_Overlord
07-29-05, 01:08 PM This is utter nonsense. This is no rule saying that you should deny the players XP for animal companions, cohorts, or any other sort of permanent companion.

Actually since there are no rules for awarding xp for animal companions, cohorts, or any other sort of permanent companion that is a defacto rule against it. They are indeed just resources of the character and not challenges of themselves, but part of a bigger challenge.

The logic behind the summoning rule is that the caster had to spend resources (an action and a spell) during the fight to summon the creature. This should be treated no differently than if they had spent resources to do something else (like cast fireball, for instance). Obviously, this reasoning does not apply to animal companions.

Consider this; instead of the leadership feat or the animal companion class feature the character took power attack feat or a class that has direct benifets to armor class (monk example). Would you give the PCs more XP if they found a way to make innert or would you consider it part of the over all challenge? Feats and class features are resource of character design just as a summon spell is.

Also, consider this: if the players fought a druid and a trained brown bear (not the druid's animal companion) they would certainly get XP for both. Now your claim is that if you make the brown bear the druid's companion, not only does the bear get a lot tougher, but it also robs the PCs of their XP. That's absurd.

The druid didn't expend a class feature or feat to gain the trained minion, and is not limited in how many he can wield, (much like humaniod minions and the diplomacy feat) The merely trained bear is much more of an independant being from the druid and suseptable to many more forms of defeat than an animal companion. (Animal companions are supernaturally loyal and essentially an extention of thier owners will, unlike trained minions)
The Abominable Darkling
07-29-05, 01:51 PM The purpose of the CR system is not to allow you to maximize the danger of a fight while minimizing the players' reward for beating it. It is utterly unfair to claim that significant threats such as cohorts and animal companions are included in their master's CR--especially when the rules say no such thing.

This is a particularly egregious claim in the case of cohorts. According to the mixed pair rule, a CR 9 creature plus a CR 7 creature is an EL 10 fight. Now you come along and say that should you replace the CR 9's Skill Focus (Craft (basketweaving)) feat with Leadership, it should suddenly become an EL 9? Utter nonsense.

Actually since there are no rules for awarding xp for animal companions, cohorts, or any other sort of permanent companion that is a defacto rule against it. They are indeed just resources of the character and not challenges of themselves, but part of a bigger challenge.
There are rules for awarding XP for animal companions and cohorts. Both of these have CRs attached to them and the experience chart shows how to convert this into XP. The only thing that's missing is how much an animal companion's CR should differ from a normal animal of its kind.
cammobeast
07-29-05, 09:17 PM the idea that "They are indeed just resources of the character and not challenges of themselves, but part of a bigger challenge," sort of ignores the subject of this discussion. ill ask you this, what if there never is a bigger challange? (at any rate not in the same adventure)
this extreme example may make things more clear...
say there is a level 7 party adventuring through hostile druidic territory. they are forced into an encounter with a animal companion owl. owls normally have a CR of 1/4 each. but this owl companion belongs to a level 20 druid so its HP jumps from 4 to 52 (or more if you are a particularly mean game master). its AC is now 32 from 17. its ST's are higher. it has a much higher strength and dex, as well as skills. for good measure, it also has hover (to take full round attacks), improved natural attack, endurance, and diehard feats. even now we still should consider its improved evasion, and abilility bonuses due to extra HD.
in one possible scenerio the party defeats this worthy advisary and continues through the woods and on to their adventure, never to hear from the druid again. how come they wouldnt even get to split 66XP for killing an owl? that dosent sit right with me. if fact, one might consider it fair to consider the owl anywhere from CR 4 to 9 depending on weather you consider it a Battler of Ambusher (as per rules on MM 3.5 p.302) which affords much more XP for them.
the other option (the "inside the box" option) is that the owl is encountered with or somehow in conjunction with the druid. this option supports the various opinions stated above. fighting the animal is part of the druid encounter, and fighting it seperately makes things even easier.
to make things even more complicated... the same L20 druid mentioned above, survives by influence of her power and through her various survants. she preferrs to live with a vast amount of idle time, meditating on nature, life, and death. after her owl is killed, the loss of one day is of no great signifigance to her. she summons another. then that same party reaches a adiquate level to defeat her and encouners her alongside her new owl (many adventures and many months, or even years, after the first owl is killed). was the frist owl really part of this encounter?
can you tell this has really been bugging me and ive had lots of time to think about it?
Seraph of Babel
07-30-05, 05:19 AM Also, consider this: if the players fought a druid and a trained brown bear (not the druid's animal companion) they would certainly get XP for both.
If the druid has no animal companion, I'd give an ad hoc reduction to his CR. It's like fighting a wizard who has already expended half of his spells or a paladin who has violated his paladinhood.

There are rules for awarding XP for animal companions and cohorts. Both of these have CRs attached to them and the experience chart shows how to convert this into XP.
Not really. Animal companions generally have no CR "attached to them". Instead, they are usually listed as "CR -". For example, see NPC druids and their animal companions in Complete Adventurer (pp.28,60,94), Races of Stone (pp.77,102), Dungeon #123 (p.28), etc.

The logic behind the summoning rule is that the caster had to spend resources (an action and a spell) during the fight to summon the creature.
DMG p.37: "Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers. An enemy's ability to summon or add these creatures is part of the enemy's CR already."

An animal companion is added to a druid's arsenal as part of its class feature and is thereafter part of the druid's CR. The animal companion is a druid's resource. Giving complex instructions to an animal companion, such as attacking a specific enemy, is a standard action for the druid/ranger as well. (See DMG, p.206)

Unfortunately, the rules do not specify what the CR of an animal companion should be. I suggested taking the base animal's CR and adding +1 per 4 HD.
Yes and the reason why the rules does not give an animal companion CR adjustment is because it has no CR (CR -).

CR+1 per extra 4 HD is way too low. A normal advanced animal has CR+1 per extra 3 HD. Since an animal companion gains other goodies (e.g. natural armor, evasion, etc.) which a normal advanced animal does not have, a better estimate would be CR+1 per extra 2 HD instead.
Seraph of Babel
07-30-05, 05:26 AM in one possible scenerio the party defeats this worthy advisary and continues through the woods and on to their adventure, never to hear from the druid again. how come they wouldnt even get to split 66XP for killing an owl?
The rules are silent on this issue. As mentioned in my 1st post, I'd personally give an ad hoc XP award if the party defeated the solitary animal companion and...
1. never encountered the druid; or
2. the druid was encountered later with a replacement animal companion.
The Abominable Darkling
07-30-05, 10:07 AM DMG p.37: "Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers. An enemy's ability to summon or add these creatures is part of the enemy's CR already.""Add" does not mean "always present." This rule refers specifically to things like summon monster spells or a demon's summon ability--nothing else.
Fiery_Overlord
07-30-05, 03:29 PM but precedent is clear in this statement and since cohort and companions are listed as CR: - then it would seem precedent is quite correct.

The question really is; is defeating an extension of a character will a defeat of a character? That is an arguable point, I would say yes but only a partial defeat. Of course xp is awarded for defeating foes and not killing them. This would make showing mercy prudent in strictly a mechanical sense of leaving further opportunities for xp available.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cammobeast 07-27-05, 09:05 PM	i have a nemisis for the pc's who is a druid. the druid is real bad news and the pc's have a long way to go before they can confront her. i was planning on using some animal companions of hers as "sub bosses" for a few of the adventures. is there a published rule for deciding the CR for animal compainions? if there is no rule published, is there anything like a greyhawk house rule? if someone could give me a rule to use for this situation, id be really happy. if wizards or the other orginizations dont have a rule for this sort of thing id be shocked. i cant imagine that no other GM has wanted a situation like this for a familiar, a mount or whatever in their game.
Seraph of Babel 07-27-05, 10:42 PM	Technically an animal companion has no CR, since it is a "class feature". The challenge it poses is accounted for by the druid's CR. It's just like when a spellcaster summons a monster, the creature is a "spell effect" and has no CR (and thus gives no XP). But if the PCs encountered the animal companion without the druid, then I'd give an ad hoc CR = CR of the base animal +1 per 2 extra HD due to high druid levels.
cammobeast 07-28-05, 05:04 PM	thanks for you help. i was hoping for an official rule. ive read about how they have no CR, and understand why they are directly associated with the druids CR. i cant believe that none of the wirters ever considered that a party may encounter a familiar of a powerful wizard long before they encounter him, or the animal compainion in this case. i was hoping (since the druid was evil and wouldnt mind sacrifising animals) that i could encounter a system that would allow the druid to take her time and summon animal compaions to be lesser opponents at the end of each adventure, until the party aquires enough XP to go after the druid.
SgtHulka 07-28-05, 05:21 PM	On the contrary, I think the rule is quite clear. The PC's who kill an animal companion don't gain any experience until they also kill the druid. As for familiars, you don't get experience for killing them, either. However, the wizard who "owns" the familiar takes a nasty xp hit and loses some neat bonuses like alertness and saving throw bonuses. You're already giving the PC's an advantage by having them fight the animal companion first. It's easier to kill the animal companion, because the ac doesn't have it's druid there to help support it. It's easier to kill the driud, later, because the druid doesn't have the ac to help support him. By seperating the combatants, you're making each of them significantly easier to defeat. I would argue that you shouldn't give the PC's more experience for this, but less. Instead of using the animal companion(s) to help build up their experience, give the druid a number of well-trained regular animals/magical beasts. The druid's got animal empathy, and he should have a pretty high handle animal roll. And he's likely got all the time in the world. He should be able to train an army's worth of worgs, dire wolves, dire bats, flying monkeys, huge vipers, or whatever to do his bidding. These animals you can provide experience for, because they aren't a class feature.
The Abominable Darkling 07-28-05, 05:41 PM	Technically an animal companion has no CR, since it is a "class feature". The challenge it poses is accounted for by the druid's CR. It's just like when a spellcaster summons a monster, the creature is a "spell effect" and has no CR (and thus gives no XP). On the contrary, I think the rule is quite clear. The PC's who kill an animal companion don't gain any experience until they also kill the druid. This is utter nonsense. This is no rule saying that you should deny the players XP for animal companions, cohorts, or any other sort of permanent companion. The logic behind the summoning rule is that the caster had to spend resources (an action and a spell) during the fight to summon the creature. This should be treated no differently than if they had spent resources to do something else (like cast fireball, for instance). Obviously, this reasoning does not apply to animal companions. Also, consider this: if the players fought a druid and a trained brown bear (not the druid's animal companion) they would certainly get XP for both. Now your claim is that if you make the brown bear the druid's companion, not only does the bear get a lot tougher, but it also robs the PCs of their XP. That's absurd. Unfortunately, the rules do not specify what the CR of an animal companion should be. I suggested taking the base animal's CR and adding +1 per 4 HD.
cammobeast 07-28-05, 06:17 PM	also when dealing with animal compaions and not familiars,.. if you you encounter a powerful druid's animal compaion and that druid is encountered in a seperate (and distant) adventure, that animal will have been replaced without any XP cost to the druid (unlike familiars). particularly if the druid is evil and dosent mind expending large numbers of animal companions. i think i will probably go with the suggestion to use other animals/magic beasts controlled by wild empathy (because i like to keep the rules all official). is there someplace on this site that i can submit suggestions to Wizards? this would be a good thing for them to consider for the future.
The Abominable Darkling 07-28-05, 06:33 PM	Send it to custserv@wizards.com; make sure to include D&D in the subject line.
cammobeast 07-28-05, 08:58 PM	thanks
Fiery_Overlord 07-29-05, 01:08 PM	This is utter nonsense. This is no rule saying that you should deny the players XP for animal companions, cohorts, or any other sort of permanent companion. Actually since there are no rules for awarding xp for animal companions, cohorts, or any other sort of permanent companion that is a defacto rule against it. They are indeed just resources of the character and not challenges of themselves, but part of a bigger challenge. The logic behind the summoning rule is that the caster had to spend resources (an action and a spell) during the fight to summon the creature. This should be treated no differently than if they had spent resources to do something else (like cast fireball, for instance). Obviously, this reasoning does not apply to animal companions. Consider this; instead of the leadership feat or the animal companion class feature the character took power attack feat or a class that has direct benifets to armor class (monk example). Would you give the PCs more XP if they found a way to make innert or would you consider it part of the over all challenge? Feats and class features are resource of character design just as a summon spell is. Also, consider this: if the players fought a druid and a trained brown bear (not the druid's animal companion) they would certainly get XP for both. Now your claim is that if you make the brown bear the druid's companion, not only does the bear get a lot tougher, but it also robs the PCs of their XP. That's absurd. The druid didn't expend a class feature or feat to gain the trained minion, and is not limited in how many he can wield, (much like humaniod minions and the diplomacy feat) The merely trained bear is much more of an independant being from the druid and suseptable to many more forms of defeat than an animal companion. (Animal companions are supernaturally loyal and essentially an extention of thier owners will, unlike trained minions)
The Abominable Darkling 07-29-05, 01:51 PM	The purpose of the CR system is not to allow you to maximize the danger of a fight while minimizing the players' reward for beating it. It is utterly unfair to claim that significant threats such as cohorts and animal companions are included in their master's CR--especially when the rules say no such thing. This is a particularly egregious claim in the case of cohorts. According to the mixed pair rule, a CR 9 creature plus a CR 7 creature is an EL 10 fight. Now you come along and say that should you replace the CR 9's Skill Focus (Craft (basketweaving)) feat with Leadership, it should suddenly become an EL 9? Utter nonsense. Actually since there are no rules for awarding xp for animal companions, cohorts, or any other sort of permanent companion that is a defacto rule against it. They are indeed just resources of the character and not challenges of themselves, but part of a bigger challenge. There are rules for awarding XP for animal companions and cohorts. Both of these have CRs attached to them and the experience chart shows how to convert this into XP. The only thing that's missing is how much an animal companion's CR should differ from a normal animal of its kind.
cammobeast 07-29-05, 09:17 PM	the idea that "They are indeed just resources of the character and not challenges of themselves, but part of a bigger challenge," sort of ignores the subject of this discussion. ill ask you this, what if there never is a bigger challange? (at any rate not in the same adventure) this extreme example may make things more clear... say there is a level 7 party adventuring through hostile druidic territory. they are forced into an encounter with a animal companion owl. owls normally have a CR of 1/4 each. but this owl companion belongs to a level 20 druid so its HP jumps from 4 to 52 (or more if you are a particularly mean game master). its AC is now 32 from 17. its ST's are higher. it has a much higher strength and dex, as well as skills. for good measure, it also has hover (to take full round attacks), improved natural attack, endurance, and diehard feats. even now we still should consider its improved evasion, and abilility bonuses due to extra HD. in one possible scenerio the party defeats this worthy advisary and continues through the woods and on to their adventure, never to hear from the druid again. how come they wouldnt even get to split 66XP for killing an owl? that dosent sit right with me. if fact, one might consider it fair to consider the owl anywhere from CR 4 to 9 depending on weather you consider it a Battler of Ambusher (as per rules on MM 3.5 p.302) which affords much more XP for them. the other option (the "inside the box" option) is that the owl is encountered with or somehow in conjunction with the druid. this option supports the various opinions stated above. fighting the animal is part of the druid encounter, and fighting it seperately makes things even easier. to make things even more complicated... the same L20 druid mentioned above, survives by influence of her power and through her various survants. she preferrs to live with a vast amount of idle time, meditating on nature, life, and death. after her owl is killed, the loss of one day is of no great signifigance to her. she summons another. then that same party reaches a adiquate level to defeat her and encouners her alongside her new owl (many adventures and many months, or even years, after the first owl is killed). was the frist owl really part of this encounter? can you tell this has really been bugging me and ive had lots of time to think about it?
Seraph of Babel 07-30-05, 05:19 AM	Also, consider this: if the players fought a druid and a trained brown bear (not the druid's animal companion) they would certainly get XP for both. If the druid has no animal companion, I'd give an ad hoc reduction to his CR. It's like fighting a wizard who has already expended half of his spells or a paladin who has violated his paladinhood. There are rules for awarding XP for animal companions and cohorts. Both of these have CRs attached to them and the experience chart shows how to convert this into XP. Not really. Animal companions generally have no CR "attached to them". Instead, they are usually listed as "CR -". For example, see NPC druids and their animal companions in Complete Adventurer (pp.28,60,94), Races of Stone (pp.77,102), Dungeon #123 (p.28), etc. The logic behind the summoning rule is that the caster had to spend resources (an action and a spell) during the fight to summon the creature. DMG p.37: "Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers. An enemy's ability to summon or add these creatures is part of the enemy's CR already." An animal companion is added to a druid's arsenal as part of its class feature and is thereafter part of the druid's CR. The animal companion is a druid's resource. Giving complex instructions to an animal companion, such as attacking a specific enemy, is a standard action for the druid/ranger as well. (See DMG, p.206) Unfortunately, the rules do not specify what the CR of an animal companion should be. I suggested taking the base animal's CR and adding +1 per 4 HD. Yes and the reason why the rules does not give an animal companion CR adjustment is because it has no CR (CR -). CR+1 per extra 4 HD is way too low. A normal advanced animal has CR+1 per extra 3 HD. Since an animal companion gains other goodies (e.g. natural armor, evasion, etc.) which a normal advanced animal does not have, a better estimate would be CR+1 per extra 2 HD instead.
Seraph of Babel 07-30-05, 05:26 AM	in one possible scenerio the party defeats this worthy advisary and continues through the woods and on to their adventure, never to hear from the druid again. how come they wouldnt even get to split 66XP for killing an owl? The rules are silent on this issue. As mentioned in my 1st post, I'd personally give an ad hoc XP award if the party defeated the solitary animal companion and... 1. never encountered the druid; or 2. the druid was encountered later with a replacement animal companion.
The Abominable Darkling 07-30-05, 10:07 AM	DMG p.37: "Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers. An enemy's ability to summon or add these creatures is part of the enemy's CR already.""Add" does not mean "always present." This rule refers specifically to things like summon monster spells or a demon's summon ability--nothing else.
Fiery_Overlord 07-30-05, 03:29 PM	but precedent is clear in this statement and since cohort and companions are listed as CR: - then it would seem precedent is quite correct. The question really is; is defeating an extension of a character will a defeat of a character? That is an arguable point, I would say yes but only a partial defeat. Of course xp is awarded for defeating foes and not killing them. This would make showing mercy prudent in strictly a mechanical sense of leaving further opportunities for xp available.