a 26 HD lycanthrope = CR 10 ??? Man does something's wrong ! [Archive] - Wizards Community

a 26 HD lycanthrope = CR 10 ??? Man does something's wrong ! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JiCi
02-17-06, 08:01 PM Ok, ever since I read the MM 3.5 and the Lycanthrope template, I keep thinking something is really wrong with the CR adjustments.

I was thinking about an Incarnate Stone Golem (from Savage Species, p. 120-121) with in addition the ability of a dire werebear.

According to the template, we have 14 HD for the I.S.G. and 12 for the dire bear form, for a total of 26 HD.

According to the template, we must add +5 to the CR (12 HD animal = +5) to the I.S.G., which is 5, for a total of 10...

WHAT ??? :eek: Come on something's not right. A party of 10th characters couldn't survive the onslaught of a I.S.G. in dire bear form or hybrid form. We're talking about serious brokeness.

For the same adjustment (+5), you could have a dire bear (12 HD), a dire polar bear (from Frostburn; 16 HD) or a legendary bear (20 HD).

Am I the only one who notice this ???
cwslyclgh
02-17-06, 08:16 PM A party of 10th characters couldn't survive the onslaught of a I.S.G. in dire bear form or hybrid form. sure they can if they simply fly and pepper it with silver arrows and spells, wouldn't be all that challenging at all... it all depends on the circumstances of the encounter.
The_Rose
02-17-06, 08:23 PM unapplicable, anyway. Lycanthropes can only be humanoids or giants.
JiCi
02-17-06, 08:28 PM unapplicable, anyway. Lycanthropes can only be humanoids or giants.huh... the Incarnate Construct template transforms a construct into a humanoid or a giant, making it eligible for the lycanthrope template.
JiCi
02-17-06, 08:33 PM sure they can if they simply fly and pepper it with silver arrows and spells, wouldn't be all that challenging at all... it all depends on the circumstances of the encounter.Yeah... guess you're right, yet a 26 HD creature should be around CR 15-18, not a little 10. If the rules would be like increase the CR by half the animal's HD, I wouldn't complain at all, but +5 for 20 animal HD worth of abilities ? It kinda seem a bit scary, if not freaky.
radu the wanderer
02-17-06, 08:44 PM keep in mind you're layering templates, and some very sketchy ones at that--- Incarnate Construct is a bit dodgy, and Lycanthropes need to be given some TLC before play.

CONSIDER THIS: the Dire Bear you're adding on has 12 HD, which you've already observed. It's also a CR 7 beastie by itself. In other words, you're adding a CR 7 monster (and then some) onto a CR 11 monster.

In my experience, the Lycanthrope template should add to CR accorting to the ANIMAL form. I use Animal Form CR +1 or 2 as a rough estimate... you're adding more hd, which means more attacks, saves, and skills. Granted, it's not phenomenal stuff, but hybrid form alone is well worth it.

Why not just throw a giant at your party instead?
runestar
02-17-06, 10:00 PM Animal HD improved at a rate of +1cr for every 3HD added. A brown bear with 6HD has a base cr of +4. Advance it to 12HD and you have a cr of +6, so +5 seems close enough. I suppose the end result is a melee monster with truely terrifying physical stats. Since there is no apparent way of winning in a slugfest, my advice? Don't. Set ambushes, or as suggested before, take to the skies and pelt it with all impunity. Everything has a weakness, it all depends on how readily you can exploit it. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JiCi 02-17-06, 08:01 PM	Ok, ever since I read the MM 3.5 and the Lycanthrope template, I keep thinking something is really wrong with the CR adjustments. I was thinking about an Incarnate Stone Golem (from Savage Species, p. 120-121) with in addition the ability of a dire werebear. According to the template, we have 14 HD for the I.S.G. and 12 for the dire bear form, for a total of 26 HD. According to the template, we must add +5 to the CR (12 HD animal = +5) to the I.S.G., which is 5, for a total of 10... WHAT ??? :eek: Come on something's not right. A party of 10th characters couldn't survive the onslaught of a I.S.G. in dire bear form or hybrid form. We're talking about serious brokeness. For the same adjustment (+5), you could have a dire bear (12 HD), a dire polar bear (from Frostburn; 16 HD) or a legendary bear (20 HD). Am I the only one who notice this ???
cwslyclgh 02-17-06, 08:16 PM	A party of 10th characters couldn't survive the onslaught of a I.S.G. in dire bear form or hybrid form. sure they can if they simply fly and pepper it with silver arrows and spells, wouldn't be all that challenging at all... it all depends on the circumstances of the encounter.
The_Rose 02-17-06, 08:23 PM	unapplicable, anyway. Lycanthropes can only be humanoids or giants.
JiCi 02-17-06, 08:28 PM	unapplicable, anyway. Lycanthropes can only be humanoids or giants.huh... the Incarnate Construct template transforms a construct into a humanoid or a giant, making it eligible for the lycanthrope template.
JiCi 02-17-06, 08:33 PM	sure they can if they simply fly and pepper it with silver arrows and spells, wouldn't be all that challenging at all... it all depends on the circumstances of the encounter.Yeah... guess you're right, yet a 26 HD creature should be around CR 15-18, not a little 10. If the rules would be like increase the CR by half the animal's HD, I wouldn't complain at all, but +5 for 20 animal HD worth of abilities ? It kinda seem a bit scary, if not freaky.
radu the wanderer 02-17-06, 08:44 PM	keep in mind you're layering templates, and some very sketchy ones at that--- Incarnate Construct is a bit dodgy, and Lycanthropes need to be given some TLC before play. CONSIDER THIS: the Dire Bear you're adding on has 12 HD, which you've already observed. It's also a CR 7 beastie by itself. In other words, you're adding a CR 7 monster (and then some) onto a CR 11 monster. In my experience, the Lycanthrope template should add to CR accorting to the ANIMAL form. I use Animal Form CR +1 or 2 as a rough estimate... you're adding more hd, which means more attacks, saves, and skills. Granted, it's not phenomenal stuff, but hybrid form alone is well worth it. Why not just throw a giant at your party instead?
runestar 02-17-06, 10:00 PM	Animal HD improved at a rate of +1cr for every 3HD added. A brown bear with 6HD has a base cr of +4. Advance it to 12HD and you have a cr of +6, so +5 seems close enough. I suppose the end result is a melee monster with truely terrifying physical stats. Since there is no apparent way of winning in a slugfest, my advice? Don't. Set ambushes, or as suggested before, take to the skies and pelt it with all impunity. Everything has a weakness, it all depends on how readily you can exploit it. :)