A couple questions about Natural Attacks- Improved Disarm and Rapid Shot [Archive] - Wizards Community

A couple questions about Natural Attacks- Improved Disarm and Rapid Shot [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
UltimaGabe
09-14-04, 12:39 AM Hey, everyone. I've got a couple questions about Natural Attacks.

Let's say you're using an Awakened Animal that normally gets 2 claw attacks. Let's say you give it a few levels of Fighter, and it takes Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm.

Could it, on a Full Attack action, attack with one claw and try to Disarm with the other? Could it Disarm with one and Trip with the other? Do they each count as iterative attacks for purposes of feats and abilities that take up an attack action?

Now for my second question: This one requires a bit of imagination. Let's say a creature somehow has a Ranged Natural Attack. (For example, there's a spell in Savage Species that allows a creature to use one of its natural attacks as a ranged attack up to 30 feat away. Let's say you're playing Troll with that spell permanently on. He'd then have 2 claws, each with a range of 30 feet.) Could you, theoretically, combine these natural attacks with Rapid Shot? I suppose a better comparison would be to ask if a creature with a Claw attack could take Two-Weapon Fighting and get two attacks. Would anything like this be possible?

Basically, here's the deal: I'm playing an Eberron Artificer in a campaign, and I'm working with the DM to make a new type of Nimblewright. (As you know, Nimblewrights have natural weapons- 2 Rapier-Hands. These follow all of the rules of Natural Weapons, as far as I know.) My character uses a Pistol- taken from a recent issue of Dragon- and we got the idea to make a Nimblewright that uses two pistols (or possibly revolvers) instead of two rapiers. Basically, we're re-working the Nimblewright a bit, changing its feats, and so on. So I was wondering what feats to give him. Spring Attack is out, as is Combat Reflexes (as he won't be making any melee attacks, or attacks of opportunity, in the near future). I thought of the Ranged Disarm feat from Complete Warrior, but I wanted to know if he could possibly get some sort of a benefit from Rapid Shot. If not, that's fine, but I just wanted to know if there was anything in the rules saying that it was possible.

Any help or advice would be most appreciated.
d_nychus
09-14-04, 01:03 PM Hey, everyone. I've got a couple questions about Natural Attacks.

Let's say you're using an Awakened Animal that normally gets 2 claw attacks. Let's say you give it a few levels of Fighter, and it takes Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm.

Could it, on a Full Attack action, attack with one claw and try to Disarm with the other? Could it Disarm with one and Trip with the other?

Yes to both. A melee attack is a melee attack is a melee attack. What you do with the melee attack is up to you.

Do they each count as iterative attacks for purposes of feats and abilities that take up an attack action?

Err, no, not in the sense you mean. Look, just forget about the term 'iterative' when dealing with feats. That is a term that is used solely in the online community, and not in the actual rules. Just remember that natural weapons do NOT get more attacks per round due to high BAB, while manufactured weapons do.

If a feat or ability requires an attack to use, then each of the two claw attacks count as a separate attack. For instance, say you have an Awakened animal monk with Stunning Fist. You could use Stunning Fist with each of those claw attacks.

I think that is what you are asking. I'm a little unclear about it.

Now for my second question: This one requires a bit of imagination. Let's say a creature somehow has a Ranged Natural Attack. (For example, there's a spell in Savage Species that allows a creature to use one of its natural attacks as a ranged attack up to 30 feat away. Let's say you're playing Troll with that spell permanently on. He'd then have 2 claws, each with a range of 30 feet.) Could you, theoretically, combine these natural attacks with Rapid Shot? I suppose a better comparison would be to ask if a creature with a Claw attack could take Two-Weapon Fighting and get two attacks. Would anything like this be possible?

Well, the Rapid Shot works fine. A ranged attack is a ranged attack is a ranged attack.

The TWF thing you mentioned, however, does not work. Remember, creatures with natural weapons are already effectively attacking "two-handed." The only way that would work is if the creature could somehow hold a manufactured weapon, and then the claw would default to the off hand.

I suppose a creature could take the TWF penalties and make an unarmed strike, dealing nothing but non-lethal damage with an off-hand attack, but that is a total guess. Not sure if that meshes with the rules, though I personally see no harm in it.

Basically, here's the deal: I'm playing an Eberron Artificer in a campaign, and I'm working with the DM to make a new type of Nimblewright. (As you know, Nimblewrights have natural weapons- 2 Rapier-Hands. These follow all of the rules of Natural Weapons, as far as I know.) My character uses a Pistol- taken from a recent issue of Dragon- and we got the idea to make a Nimblewright that uses two pistols (or possibly revolvers) instead of two rapiers. Basically, we're re-working the Nimblewright a bit, changing its feats, and so on. So I was wondering what feats to give him. Spring Attack is out, as is Combat Reflexes (as he won't be making any melee attacks, or attacks of opportunity, in the near future). I thought of the Ranged Disarm feat from Complete Warrior, but I wanted to know if he could possibly get some sort of a benefit from Rapid Shot. If not, that's fine, but I just wanted to know if there was anything in the rules saying that it was possible.

Any help or advice would be most appreciated.

By the rules as written, that seems fine. Rapid shot would obviously only work when he took a full attack.

Recommend Point Blank Shot.

Oh, and how does he reload himself?
UltimaGabe
09-14-04, 10:14 PM Oh, and how does he reload himself?

Well, effectively, he's got two repeating crossbows as his natural weapons (they're revolvers, but it's the same concept). Every couple rounds he has to take a round or two to reload them, but after doing so he's able to get off as many shots as he can hold until he runs out.

Anyway, thanks for the answers. However, I've got one more.

Let's say he's got these two ranged natural attacks, and he takes Rapid Shot.

How many attacks does he get now?

He's got his two natural attacks, but how many does Rapid Shot give him? Just one, resulting in three attacks (one with one of his natural weapons, and two with the other)? Or two, resulting in four attacks (two attacks with each weapon)?

For a good comparison, let's say you're a Fighter with the Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, and Quickdraw feats, and a bandolier full of Throwing Daggers. In one full attack action, not counting rapid shot, you've got two dagger attacks (one with each hand) at +9. Then, he decides to use Rapid Shot. Does he just get one extra dagger, or one extra dagger with each hand?
d_nychus
09-15-04, 01:27 AM Rapid shot only gives one additional ranged attack per round, regardless of the number of weapons used.
UltimaGabe
09-16-04, 03:55 PM Alright, thanks for the help.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UltimaGabe 09-14-04, 12:39 AM	Hey, everyone. I've got a couple questions about Natural Attacks. Let's say you're using an Awakened Animal that normally gets 2 claw attacks. Let's say you give it a few levels of Fighter, and it takes Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm. Could it, on a Full Attack action, attack with one claw and try to Disarm with the other? Could it Disarm with one and Trip with the other? Do they each count as iterative attacks for purposes of feats and abilities that take up an attack action? Now for my second question: This one requires a bit of imagination. Let's say a creature somehow has a Ranged Natural Attack. (For example, there's a spell in Savage Species that allows a creature to use one of its natural attacks as a ranged attack up to 30 feat away. Let's say you're playing Troll with that spell permanently on. He'd then have 2 claws, each with a range of 30 feet.) Could you, theoretically, combine these natural attacks with Rapid Shot? I suppose a better comparison would be to ask if a creature with a Claw attack could take Two-Weapon Fighting and get two attacks. Would anything like this be possible? Basically, here's the deal: I'm playing an Eberron Artificer in a campaign, and I'm working with the DM to make a new type of Nimblewright. (As you know, Nimblewrights have natural weapons- 2 Rapier-Hands. These follow all of the rules of Natural Weapons, as far as I know.) My character uses a Pistol- taken from a recent issue of Dragon- and we got the idea to make a Nimblewright that uses two pistols (or possibly revolvers) instead of two rapiers. Basically, we're re-working the Nimblewright a bit, changing its feats, and so on. So I was wondering what feats to give him. Spring Attack is out, as is Combat Reflexes (as he won't be making any melee attacks, or attacks of opportunity, in the near future). I thought of the Ranged Disarm feat from Complete Warrior, but I wanted to know if he could possibly get some sort of a benefit from Rapid Shot. If not, that's fine, but I just wanted to know if there was anything in the rules saying that it was possible. Any help or advice would be most appreciated.
d_nychus 09-14-04, 01:03 PM	Hey, everyone. I've got a couple questions about Natural Attacks. Let's say you're using an Awakened Animal that normally gets 2 claw attacks. Let's say you give it a few levels of Fighter, and it takes Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm. Could it, on a Full Attack action, attack with one claw and try to Disarm with the other? Could it Disarm with one and Trip with the other? Yes to both. A melee attack is a melee attack is a melee attack. What you do with the melee attack is up to you. Do they each count as iterative attacks for purposes of feats and abilities that take up an attack action? Err, no, not in the sense you mean. Look, just forget about the term 'iterative' when dealing with feats. That is a term that is used solely in the online community, and not in the actual rules. Just remember that natural weapons do NOT get more attacks per round due to high BAB, while manufactured weapons do. If a feat or ability requires an attack to use, then each of the two claw attacks count as a separate attack. For instance, say you have an Awakened animal monk with Stunning Fist. You could use Stunning Fist with each of those claw attacks. I think that is what you are asking. I'm a little unclear about it. Now for my second question: This one requires a bit of imagination. Let's say a creature somehow has a Ranged Natural Attack. (For example, there's a spell in Savage Species that allows a creature to use one of its natural attacks as a ranged attack up to 30 feat away. Let's say you're playing Troll with that spell permanently on. He'd then have 2 claws, each with a range of 30 feet.) Could you, theoretically, combine these natural attacks with Rapid Shot? I suppose a better comparison would be to ask if a creature with a Claw attack could take Two-Weapon Fighting and get two attacks. Would anything like this be possible? Well, the Rapid Shot works fine. A ranged attack is a ranged attack is a ranged attack. The TWF thing you mentioned, however, does not work. Remember, creatures with natural weapons are already effectively attacking "two-handed." The only way that would work is if the creature could somehow hold a manufactured weapon, and then the claw would default to the off hand. I suppose a creature could take the TWF penalties and make an unarmed strike, dealing nothing but non-lethal damage with an off-hand attack, but that is a total guess. Not sure if that meshes with the rules, though I personally see no harm in it. Basically, here's the deal: I'm playing an Eberron Artificer in a campaign, and I'm working with the DM to make a new type of Nimblewright. (As you know, Nimblewrights have natural weapons- 2 Rapier-Hands. These follow all of the rules of Natural Weapons, as far as I know.) My character uses a Pistol- taken from a recent issue of Dragon- and we got the idea to make a Nimblewright that uses two pistols (or possibly revolvers) instead of two rapiers. Basically, we're re-working the Nimblewright a bit, changing its feats, and so on. So I was wondering what feats to give him. Spring Attack is out, as is Combat Reflexes (as he won't be making any melee attacks, or attacks of opportunity, in the near future). I thought of the Ranged Disarm feat from Complete Warrior, but I wanted to know if he could possibly get some sort of a benefit from Rapid Shot. If not, that's fine, but I just wanted to know if there was anything in the rules saying that it was possible. Any help or advice would be most appreciated. By the rules as written, that seems fine. Rapid shot would obviously only work when he took a full attack. Recommend Point Blank Shot. Oh, and how does he reload himself?
UltimaGabe 09-14-04, 10:14 PM	Oh, and how does he reload himself? Well, effectively, he's got two repeating crossbows as his natural weapons (they're revolvers, but it's the same concept). Every couple rounds he has to take a round or two to reload them, but after doing so he's able to get off as many shots as he can hold until he runs out. Anyway, thanks for the answers. However, I've got one more. Let's say he's got these two ranged natural attacks, and he takes Rapid Shot. How many attacks does he get now? He's got his two natural attacks, but how many does Rapid Shot give him? Just one, resulting in three attacks (one with one of his natural weapons, and two with the other)? Or two, resulting in four attacks (two attacks with each weapon)? For a good comparison, let's say you're a Fighter with the Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, and Quickdraw feats, and a bandolier full of Throwing Daggers. In one full attack action, not counting rapid shot, you've got two dagger attacks (one with each hand) at +9. Then, he decides to use Rapid Shot. Does he just get one extra dagger, or one extra dagger with each hand?
d_nychus 09-15-04, 01:27 AM	Rapid shot only gives one additional ranged attack per round, regardless of the number of weapons used.
UltimaGabe 09-16-04, 03:55 PM	Alright, thanks for the help.