A debate at work about two monsters. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A debate at work about two monsters. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Skyshroud7
03-11-04, 06:41 PM I just started this new job last week, and there are two other people who like d & d.

Well one is all about a red dragon being the most powerful monster yet, the other and I know the Tarrasque would man handle even the most power of red dragons.

His dumb ass strategy is to have the dragon fly from behind (tries not to laugh much) and pick the tarrasque off the ground, and then assult him further with this entre of spells.

For those who have probally been playing alot longer than I honestly is this really even a contest? And if it is not, just how many dragons would it take.
d_nychus
03-11-04, 06:55 PM A red dragon CAN take out a tarrasque, but definately NOT like that. That's about the dumbest thing for a red dragon, or anyone, to do. The tarrasque would tear up the dragon in a grapple.

A red dragon SHOULD be using his spells to beat the tarrasque down, maybe finally attacking it physically to finish it off before Wishing it to death. But grappling it is an outright insane tactic.
Skyshroud7
03-11-04, 06:57 PM The things is man, WHAT SPELLS, can the dragons even use to hit it in the first place?
d_nychus
03-11-04, 07:14 PM Well, there are just so many options. Direct damage is really hard to pull off, but not impossible. Save or die spells are much harder to pull off, but will allow fo the red dragon to get close enough to perform a few more attacks to put its nonlethal damage too high to quickly regenerate back from, then use a Wish. Summoning things like demons and devils would also help out, as the more attacks that can be laid on the tarrasque, the harder it is for the tarrasque to regenerate.

If you just want to DEFEAT the tarrasque and not just kill it, i.e., send it to another plane of existance, you'll have an easier time.

I'm not really set up to look up exactly what the best spells are against it, but I am more than certain it can be done.
Vanigo
03-11-04, 09:07 PM It's also worth noting that a gold dragon is noticably stronger than a red.
Skyshroud7
03-11-04, 10:11 PM Ok, so why in all the time I have played (only since like 96) has this seemed to be the toughest stat wise out of all the critters? Why make it so legendary and dorminant for years only to rampage and be snuffed by a meer dragon. Why not have the dragon be rare and only come out every 30 years?

Dunno I guess I am a little confused.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
03-11-04, 10:20 PM The only reason the Tarrasque's CR is so low is that it cannot fly. Put on a template that gives it flight (half-dragon, half-celestial, or half-fiend) and its actual CR will be far higher that what the template says it would be. (22, I believe. With flight, the Big T's actual CR would probably be at least 30.)
Korhal_IV
03-11-04, 10:31 PM The dragon can fly. The tarrasque cannot. Dragon wins.

Additionally, even without direct damage and save-or-die spells, the dragon is still a 20th level spellcaster. Spells like Force Cage and Stone to Mud will make Big T’s life difficult. Spells like Bull’s Strength, Divine Favor, Improved Invisibility, Haste, and Tenser’s Transformation will power up the dragon to incredible heights.

It’s no contest, really – Big T has to fight on the dragon’s terms, because of the dragon’s flying ability, and the dragon can certainly choose circumstances in which it has a huge advantage (given its incredible brillance).
Juca
03-12-04, 09:38 AM Well, im pretty much sure that the dragon can outdish the tarrasque in damage input per round with its attacks, specially if using power attack, spells like tenser transformation (interative attacks...) and no save spells.
Archangel
03-12-04, 10:01 AM This has been discussed on D&D boards and the conclusion is that Dragons have no chance against the Big T(in 3.5E)! He just regenerates quicker, has crazy saves and is immune to almost everything, can reflect spell back, has DR/Epic, even Breath weapons reflect back. In melee combat with his cannot miss attacks that have better critical and do more damage he will outdamage any dragon. There is nothing any non-Epic Handbook dragon can to kill him. He can Dominate him or Imprison him but that is all!
the_heart
03-12-04, 10:07 AM as archangel said, unless Dragon has just the right spells he can't defeat Mr. T. of course dragon has to stay out of Mr.T's reach because in a knockdown melee/grapple that dragon is toast.

final outcome: Dragon buzzes Mr. T staying just out of reach (maybe getting pelted by a rock/ ripped up tree if Mr. T is feeling particularly belligerent) until said Dragon gets bored and goes home.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skyshroud7 03-11-04, 06:41 PM	I just started this new job last week, and there are two other people who like d & d. Well one is all about a red dragon being the most powerful monster yet, the other and I know the Tarrasque would man handle even the most power of red dragons. His dumb ass strategy is to have the dragon fly from behind (tries not to laugh much) and pick the tarrasque off the ground, and then assult him further with this entre of spells. For those who have probally been playing alot longer than I honestly is this really even a contest? And if it is not, just how many dragons would it take.
d_nychus 03-11-04, 06:55 PM	A red dragon CAN take out a tarrasque, but definately NOT like that. That's about the dumbest thing for a red dragon, or anyone, to do. The tarrasque would tear up the dragon in a grapple. A red dragon SHOULD be using his spells to beat the tarrasque down, maybe finally attacking it physically to finish it off before Wishing it to death. But grappling it is an outright insane tactic.
Skyshroud7 03-11-04, 06:57 PM	The things is man, WHAT SPELLS, can the dragons even use to hit it in the first place?
d_nychus 03-11-04, 07:14 PM	Well, there are just so many options. Direct damage is really hard to pull off, but not impossible. Save or die spells are much harder to pull off, but will allow fo the red dragon to get close enough to perform a few more attacks to put its nonlethal damage too high to quickly regenerate back from, then use a Wish. Summoning things like demons and devils would also help out, as the more attacks that can be laid on the tarrasque, the harder it is for the tarrasque to regenerate. If you just want to DEFEAT the tarrasque and not just kill it, i.e., send it to another plane of existance, you'll have an easier time. I'm not really set up to look up exactly what the best spells are against it, but I am more than certain it can be done.
Vanigo 03-11-04, 09:07 PM	It's also worth noting that a gold dragon is noticably stronger than a red.
Skyshroud7 03-11-04, 10:11 PM	Ok, so why in all the time I have played (only since like 96) has this seemed to be the toughest stat wise out of all the critters? Why make it so legendary and dorminant for years only to rampage and be snuffed by a meer dragon. Why not have the dragon be rare and only come out every 30 years? Dunno I guess I am a little confused.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-11-04, 10:20 PM	The only reason the Tarrasque's CR is so low is that it cannot fly. Put on a template that gives it flight (half-dragon, half-celestial, or half-fiend) and its actual CR will be far higher that what the template says it would be. (22, I believe. With flight, the Big T's actual CR would probably be at least 30.)
Korhal_IV 03-11-04, 10:31 PM	The dragon can fly. The tarrasque cannot. Dragon wins. Additionally, even without direct damage and save-or-die spells, the dragon is still a 20th level spellcaster. Spells like Force Cage and Stone to Mud will make Big T’s life difficult. Spells like Bull’s Strength, Divine Favor, Improved Invisibility, Haste, and Tenser’s Transformation will power up the dragon to incredible heights. It’s no contest, really – Big T has to fight on the dragon’s terms, because of the dragon’s flying ability, and the dragon can certainly choose circumstances in which it has a huge advantage (given its incredible brillance).
Juca 03-12-04, 09:38 AM	Well, im pretty much sure that the dragon can outdish the tarrasque in damage input per round with its attacks, specially if using power attack, spells like tenser transformation (interative attacks...) and no save spells.
Archangel 03-12-04, 10:01 AM	This has been discussed on D&D boards and the conclusion is that Dragons have no chance against the Big T(in 3.5E)! He just regenerates quicker, has crazy saves and is immune to almost everything, can reflect spell back, has DR/Epic, even Breath weapons reflect back. In melee combat with his cannot miss attacks that have better critical and do more damage he will outdamage any dragon. There is nothing any non-Epic Handbook dragon can to kill him. He can Dominate him or Imprison him but that is all!
the_heart 03-12-04, 10:07 AM	as archangel said, unless Dragon has just the right spells he can't defeat Mr. T. of course dragon has to stay out of Mr.T's reach because in a knockdown melee/grapple that dragon is toast. final outcome: Dragon buzzes Mr. T staying just out of reach (maybe getting pelted by a rock/ ripped up tree if Mr. T is feeling particularly belligerent) until said Dragon gets bored and goes home.