A few questions about monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

A few questions about monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Necroramo
05-13-07, 09:40 AM I'm starting to dabble in the world of creating my own monsters (or at least, messing around with monsters that are already in place), and I had a few questions:

1. If a monster has an attack that delivers a disease listed in another book, is the save DC the one normally given for the disease or the standard 10 + .5HD + relative modifier?

2. While advancing a monster, at what point do they receive epic feats? I'm guessing it's not past 20 HD because the Angel of Decay in Libris Mortis has 26 HD and no Epic Feats, so is it when the monster advances beyond CR 20 in this fashion?
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 11:01 AM 1. If a monster has an attack that delivers a disease listed in another book, is the save DC the one normally given for the disease or the standard 10 + .5HD + relative modifier?

That's up to you. I would recommend basing it upon the formula from the monster's hit dice, using the standard disease may adjust the final CR of the creature.

2. While advancing a monster, at what point do they receive epic feats? I'm guessing it's not past 20 HD because the Angel of Decay in Libris Mortis has 26 HD and no Epic Feats, so is it when the monster advances beyond CR 20 in this fashion?

They are eligible from 20HD, but the game designers don't always give them epic feats. You don't have to stick with this though when you advance or rewrite a creature.

Edit: Eligible from 20HD or from ECL 20 whichever comes sooner.
Dracomortis
05-13-07, 11:56 AM 1. If a monster has an attack that delivers a disease listed in another book, is the save DC the one normally given for the disease or the standard 10 + .5HD + relative modifier?
When it's a monster, you use the standard 10 + 1/2 monster's Hit Dice + ability modifier (usually Con). The DC given in the books elsewhere (such as the Dungeon Master's Guide) are for coming into contact with the disease elsewhere, such as, say, contracting filth fever from eating decaying food or some such.

2. While advancing a monster, at what point do they receive epic feats? I'm guessing it's not past 20 HD because the Angel of Decay in Libris Mortis has 26 HD and no Epic Feats, so is it when the monster advances beyond CR 20 in this fashion?
As Optimized_Commoner said, they are technically eligible at 20 Hit Dice or when their Effective Character Level reaches 20, whichever happens first. However, it is bad design to give a non-epic creature access to epic material because it exposes the PCs to abilities far beyond what they should be facing. Feats tend to be less dangerous than other epic abilities (there's nothing particularly deadly about giving a non-epic creature Great Dexterity or Epic Weapon Focus), but they can still be unbalancing if not handled carefully (Epic Spellcasting and Improved Whirlwind Attack can decimate non-epic parties).
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 02:09 PM However, it is bad design to give a non-epic creature access to epic material because it exposes the PCs to abilities far beyond what they should be facing. Feats tend to be less dangerous than other epic abilities (there's nothing particularly deadly about giving a non-epic creature Great Dexterity or Epic Weapon Focus), but they can still be unbalancing if not handled carefully (Epic Spellcasting and Improved Whirlwind Attack can decimate non-epic parties).

I agree with this completely.
Perseus_Stoned
05-13-07, 02:20 PM Edit: Eligible from 20HD or from ECL 20 whichever comes sooner.

Is there a way to get access to 20HD before being ECL20?
Witch
05-13-07, 02:20 PM Edit: Eligible from 20HD or from ECL 20 whichever comes sooner.
This is incorrect. Only from 20HD do they qualify, not from 20 ECL.
Perseus_Stoned
05-13-07, 02:32 PM This is incorrect. Only from 20HD do they qualify, not from 20 ECL.

Do you have a specific ruling on that?

Acquiring Epic Feats

Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.
Since this only mentions "levels" I'd say 'effective character level' would definitely qualify you.
Witch
05-13-07, 02:37 PM No, it doesn't. ECL isn't levels. In any case, from the SRD:

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level

To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.

If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later).

Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice.

(...)

Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases

A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

The underlined part, alongside with the fact that ECL doesn't affect anything beyond the fact that what it says it affects, means that ECL is irrelevant for purposes of when you get Epic Feats. Level never refers to ECL, it always refers to either class or character level, depending on context.
Perseus_Stoned
05-13-07, 02:42 PM No, it doesn't. ECL isn't levels.

Touché. ;)

Honestly, I really don't know what I was thinking, I mean its not like LA counts as racial hit die.
Dracomortis
05-13-07, 05:26 PM Is there a way to get access to 20HD before being ECL20?
If it's a monster that can't be played as a character, yes, because it has no ECL. Other than that, no, and as Witch pointed out, you have to have 20 HD anyway, although I usually houserule that characters can get it at ECL 21 and on (there's no reason the player who chose to be an ogre should be penalized even further).
Witch
05-13-07, 05:35 PM I also often houserule thusly, but it need be clarified as such :) Many other prereqs are still out of range then, though.
Dracomortis
05-13-07, 05:47 PM True enough (I would hate to be something with an LA going for epic spellcasting...ugh).
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 06:43 PM The underlined part, alongside with the fact that ECL doesn't affect anything beyond the fact that what it says it affects, means that ECL is irrelevant for purposes of when you get Epic Feats. Level neaver refers to ECL, it always refers to either class or character level, depending on context.

This actually sounds quite familiar, I think you may be right. Tommorow I'll look this up and check it out in detail, but yes, I think you may well have this one quite right.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necroramo 05-13-07, 09:40 AM	I'm starting to dabble in the world of creating my own monsters (or at least, messing around with monsters that are already in place), and I had a few questions: 1. If a monster has an attack that delivers a disease listed in another book, is the save DC the one normally given for the disease or the standard 10 + .5HD + relative modifier? 2. While advancing a monster, at what point do they receive epic feats? I'm guessing it's not past 20 HD because the Angel of Decay in Libris Mortis has 26 HD and no Epic Feats, so is it when the monster advances beyond CR 20 in this fashion?
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 11:01 AM	1. If a monster has an attack that delivers a disease listed in another book, is the save DC the one normally given for the disease or the standard 10 + .5HD + relative modifier? That's up to you. I would recommend basing it upon the formula from the monster's hit dice, using the standard disease may adjust the final CR of the creature. 2. While advancing a monster, at what point do they receive epic feats? I'm guessing it's not past 20 HD because the Angel of Decay in Libris Mortis has 26 HD and no Epic Feats, so is it when the monster advances beyond CR 20 in this fashion? They are eligible from 20HD, but the game designers don't always give them epic feats. You don't have to stick with this though when you advance or rewrite a creature. Edit: Eligible from 20HD or from ECL 20 whichever comes sooner.
Dracomortis 05-13-07, 11:56 AM	1. If a monster has an attack that delivers a disease listed in another book, is the save DC the one normally given for the disease or the standard 10 + .5HD + relative modifier? When it's a monster, you use the standard 10 + 1/2 monster's Hit Dice + ability modifier (usually Con). The DC given in the books elsewhere (such as the Dungeon Master's Guide) are for coming into contact with the disease elsewhere, such as, say, contracting filth fever from eating decaying food or some such. 2. While advancing a monster, at what point do they receive epic feats? I'm guessing it's not past 20 HD because the Angel of Decay in Libris Mortis has 26 HD and no Epic Feats, so is it when the monster advances beyond CR 20 in this fashion? As Optimized_Commoner said, they are technically eligible at 20 Hit Dice or when their Effective Character Level reaches 20, whichever happens first. However, it is bad design to give a non-epic creature access to epic material because it exposes the PCs to abilities far beyond what they should be facing. Feats tend to be less dangerous than other epic abilities (there's nothing particularly deadly about giving a non-epic creature Great Dexterity or Epic Weapon Focus), but they can still be unbalancing if not handled carefully (Epic Spellcasting and Improved Whirlwind Attack can decimate non-epic parties).
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 02:09 PM	However, it is bad design to give a non-epic creature access to epic material because it exposes the PCs to abilities far beyond what they should be facing. Feats tend to be less dangerous than other epic abilities (there's nothing particularly deadly about giving a non-epic creature Great Dexterity or Epic Weapon Focus), but they can still be unbalancing if not handled carefully (Epic Spellcasting and Improved Whirlwind Attack can decimate non-epic parties). I agree with this completely.
Perseus_Stoned 05-13-07, 02:20 PM	Edit: Eligible from 20HD or from ECL 20 whichever comes sooner. Is there a way to get access to 20HD before being ECL20?
Witch 05-13-07, 02:20 PM	Edit: Eligible from 20HD or from ECL 20 whichever comes sooner. This is incorrect. Only from 20HD do they qualify, not from 20 ECL.
Perseus_Stoned 05-13-07, 02:32 PM	This is incorrect. Only from 20HD do they qualify, not from 20 ECL. Do you have a specific ruling on that? Acquiring Epic Feats Characters gain epic feats in the following ways: At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat. Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class. Since this only mentions "levels" I'd say 'effective character level' would definitely qualify you.
Witch 05-13-07, 02:37 PM	No, it doesn't. ECL isn't levels. In any case, from the SRD: Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character. Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills. If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later). Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice. (...) Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. The underlined part, alongside with the fact that ECL doesn't affect anything beyond the fact that what it says it affects, means that ECL is irrelevant for purposes of when you get Epic Feats. Level never refers to ECL, it always refers to either class or character level, depending on context.
Perseus_Stoned 05-13-07, 02:42 PM	No, it doesn't. ECL isn't levels. Touché. ;) Honestly, I really don't know what I was thinking, I mean its not like LA counts as racial hit die.
Dracomortis 05-13-07, 05:26 PM	Is there a way to get access to 20HD before being ECL20? If it's a monster that can't be played as a character, yes, because it has no ECL. Other than that, no, and as Witch pointed out, you have to have 20 HD anyway, although I usually houserule that characters can get it at ECL 21 and on (there's no reason the player who chose to be an ogre should be penalized even further).
Witch 05-13-07, 05:35 PM	I also often houserule thusly, but it need be clarified as such :) Many other prereqs are still out of range then, though.
Dracomortis 05-13-07, 05:47 PM	True enough (I would hate to be something with an LA going for epic spellcasting...ugh).
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 06:43 PM	The underlined part, alongside with the fact that ECL doesn't affect anything beyond the fact that what it says it affects, means that ECL is irrelevant for purposes of when you get Epic Feats. Level neaver refers to ECL, it always refers to either class or character level, depending on context. This actually sounds quite familiar, I think you may be right. Tommorow I'll look this up and check it out in detail, but yes, I think you may well have this one quite right.