Post/Author/DateTime	Post
P33KAJ3W 04-29-05, 05:05 PM	Feats: A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity. Does this mean if I provoke a 12 headed hydra I get 12 attacks of opportunity or that any of the 12 heads may make one if you prevoke an AoO...
Mercurius 04-29-05, 05:26 PM	I'm gonna say right up front that I don't honestly know the full answer. Some people on the boards have interpreted it to mean that it gets a whole mess of attacks against one AoO chance and others who say that they get a separate AoO per turn for each head (basically just like if they'd had a much higher DEX bonus). I prefer the second option, because it makes each AoO less absurdly deadly, and it makes the Combat Reflexes ability make more sense. It also fits better, IMHO. However, I don't know what the "official" word is.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-29-05, 05:48 PM	I interpret it to mean that a 12 headed hydra can make 12 attacks of opportunities a round, but can still only make one per enemy. In other words, the Dex mod is replaced by number of heads for the purpose of the Combat Reflexes feat.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-29-05, 08:53 PM	I personally interpet it as a hydra gets to use all of its heads in a single AoO.
d_nychus 04-29-05, 09:17 PM	12 attacks during one AoO, as Raymond suggests, seems like the best way to handle it. Think of it this way, what does the hydra get for various attack scenarios: Attack: 12 bites Full Attack: 12 bites AoO: 12 bites, or one bite 12 times in a round? It really seems that the rules are attempting allow for the hydra to always get 12 (or however many heads it has at the time) attacks in every time it attacks. Frankly, considering how weak the hydra is on defense (even with fast healing: ungodly, the hydra has no other serious defenses), I think it should have a pretty heavy-handed offense to keep up with its CR, and that should include AoOs as well.
Origami_Ninja 04-30-05, 06:37 PM	there's just one problem with it getting 12 attacks per AoO. It only gets 1 AoO. It's dex isn't high enough to afford it more than that, and that means once it attacks once, that's it, no more. Therefore, I would say that it would allow it to make more AoO's than it's dex allows, meaning 1 AoO per head, as if each head was a seperate entity EDIT: oops, sorry was going with the 3.0 version. Anyhoo, it's still only twice a round, I'd still rule it like that. but, that means it can make 12 AoO's per round(!) still quite a bit for creature. EDIT2: Geh...alright, now the writers are being screwy. 1 attack is all heads at once? with 2d8+whatever str bonus per head? It's like the body is a separate entity/ride, and the heads are the riders. I guess that's what they're trying to do with it.maybe it is all head at once...
Solidcobra 05-01-05, 01:45 PM	I go with the one AoO-per-head rule, simply because it is more impressive and less deadly all at once. (What makes for a more terrifying scene? The fighter tasting 24d8 damage because he tried to attack the hydra, or each hydra snapping up a fleeing, screaming commoner in their mouths and crushing them between their teeth?) I never liked hydras anyway.
PhaedrusXY 05-01-05, 01:59 PM	EDIT2: Geh...alright, now the writers are being screwy. 1 attack is all heads at once? with 2d8+whatever str bonus per head? It's like the body is a separate entity/ride, and the heads are the riders. I guess that's what they're trying to do with it.maybe it is all head at once...Exactly. I think it can use all of its heads on a single AoO. The heads all attack independantly of each other. So when you provoke an AoO from a hydra, you're basically provoking attacks of opportunity from 12 different attackers. They just all happen to be attached to the same body. :P
Alienfreak 05-01-05, 03:00 PM	Even if there is stated that the creature has 3 claws it is still a Full Attack Action to attack with more than one claw. I single standard attack action still uses only 1 head. If it has 1 Bite and 2 Claws in its attack block it attack with 1 Bite when using a single action and attack with all of them when using a full attack. The Hydra is no exception here. And also its clearly stated that you can do only a SINGLE melee attack upon one AoO. 12 Attacks are still MULTIPLE attacks or does anyone want to tell me that 12 attacks are one (so single?).
Alienfreak 05-01-05, 03:22 PM	Even if there is stated that the creature has 3 claws it is still a Full Attack Action to attack with more than one claw. I single standard attack action still uses only 1 head. If it has 1 Bite and 2 Claws in its attack block it attack with 1 Bite when using a single action and attack with all of them when using a full attack. The Hydra is no exception here. And also its clearly stated that you can do only a SINGLE melee attack upon one AoO. 12 Attacks are still MULTIPLE attacks or does anyone want to tell me that 12 attacks are one (so single?).
Dragonblade275 05-01-05, 03:47 PM	This is an interesting dicussion to me. As I was reading the thread, I was wondering if a hydra could be treated like an ettin. In other words, each head is a separate creature that shares one body. Let me get my books and see... ... ... Since the hydras single attack and full attack are the same, it seems to me that a hydra would get an Attack of Opportunity with each head even without the Combat Reflexes Feat. All the hydras in the Monster Manual have a DEX of 12. If a human fighter with a 12 DEX had Combat Reflexes, s/he'd only get one attack of opportunity. Since each head has a 12 DEX, each head gets an AoO from Combat Reflexes. What gets scary is an elite 12-headed hydra using with a 15 DEX or higher. 24 AoO's or maybe even 36 or 48 for a hydra with a really high DEX. I'm fairly well convinced that a 12-headed hydra with an 18 DEX could make 48 AoO's.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-01-05, 03:52 PM	All the hydras in the Monster Manual have a DEX of 12. If a human fighter with a 12 DEX had Combat Reflexes, s/he'd only get one attack of opportunity. He'd get 2. Combat Reflexes gives bonus AoOs equal to the Dexterity Bonus, with a minimum of one bonus AoO. Unless, of course, they changed this within the last few months. I single standard attack action still uses only 1 head. If it has 1 Bite and 2 Claws in its attack block it attack with 1 Bite when using a single action and attack with all of them when using a full attack. The Hydra is no exception here. It is. The Hydra's Attack and Full Attack are identical.
Dragonblade275 05-01-05, 03:57 PM	Thanks, Raymond. That'd mean that a 12-headed hydra with an 18 DEX could take 60 AoO's, right?
d_nychus 05-01-05, 04:25 PM	Thanks, Raymond. That'd mean that a 12-headed hydra with an 18 DEX could take 60 AoO's, right? No. That means that a 12-headed hydra with an 18 Dex could take 5 AoOs a round, with 12 heads each time.
Dragonblade275 05-01-05, 04:44 PM	No. That means that a 12-headed hydra with an 18 Dex could take 5 AoOs a round, with 12 heads each time. So, each head couldn't choose to take attacks of opportunity independantly? Six heads take this AoO while the other six wait for another opportunity?
d_nychus 05-01-05, 05:12 PM	So, each head couldn't choose to take attacks of opportunity independantly? Six heads take this AoO while the other six wait for another opportunity? No, it would only have X number of AoOs (5 in the case you listed, or 2 for a typical), and each AoO would allow for up to all 12 heads to attack (or more, if it had them). If it only attacks with a few of its heads for some reason (why, honestly, is beyond me), the other attacks are effectively lost. Don't think of each head as an independent attack. All of its heads are effectively 1 attack, or 1 AoO. It just can make more than one AoO a round.
Sildatorak 05-01-05, 11:00 PM	:weep: <-- that is the barbarian (w/o improved sunder) who tries to imitate his fighter buddy (with improved sunder)
runestar 05-01-05, 11:31 PM	I would interpret it as being able to make up to 12 AOO in a single round, but no more than 1 per foe. Else, that's a potential 144 attacks a round(12*12), which is just plain wrong.
d_nychus 05-02-05, 09:17 AM	I would interpret it as being able to make up to 12 AOO in a single round, but no more than 1 per foe. Else, that's a potential 144 attacks a round(12*12), which is just plain wrong. How on earth do you get 12 times 12? A base 12-headed hydra has a 12 Dex, meaning a total of 2 (1 base, +1 Dex modifier) AoOs per round. That means the hydra can make 2 AoOs, each with 12 heads, per round, for a total of 2 * 12 = 24 potential attacks against 2 different AoO provocations. Really, for a CR 11, is that so powerful?
Phrennzy 05-02-05, 09:49 AM	This is exactly why I ditched the hydra encounter I was planning. The whole 'head-sundering' thing and the many AoO. Hydras seem like too much of an exception to rules.
runestar 05-02-05, 10:04 AM	My rationale was 12 heads against one foe, and since it has 12 heads, it can announce up to 12 attacks of opportunity, with each AOO utilising all 12 heads to attack. Tell me I have gone bonkers....
Sildatorak 05-02-05, 01:54 PM	Tell me I have gone bonkers.... You have, but it is understandable in this world when nothing has meaning. Don't worry, we have plenty of cells and a staff that is here to help you deal with your struggle.
runestar 05-03-05, 11:13 PM	Staff as in personnel, or the wooden pole to knock me out with? :)
mountc 05-16-05, 09:50 AM	This very same argument is taking place on a separate board. It's clear to me that the hydra gets 2 AoOs each with all its heads, but some of you here, just like on the other board, take it to mean X AoO, with only one head at a time taking the AoO. I would very much like to see this issue addressed and concluded once and for all by the writers and developers. It's going to be an issue for me personally in about a month when my players meet with the 8 headed pyro-hydra. I'd really like to not have to retool the encounter with another creature, but I want to make sure I make the correct ruling and don't nerf the hydra.
mountc 05-17-05, 12:25 PM	*bump* Still really interested in an official ruling on this issue.
Sildatorak 05-17-05, 01:11 PM	I'd really like to not have to retool the encounter with another creature, but I want to make sure I make the correct ruling and don't nerf the hydra. The hydra gets X attacks using a standard action, so it seems pretty clear that one natural attack consists of every head biting once. It can make one natural attack as an attack of opportunity, so it is advisable to avoid AoO's from a hydra unless you have high armor class (because every head will bite you). I think the problem is that combat reflexes has absolutely nothing to do with this ability, so they should rework the hydra once again with the multi-attack thing as an extraordinary ability rather than as a note under feats and a line in the stat block.
mountc 05-17-05, 02:16 PM	See, that's the ruling I've always gone by, and the only one that makes sense to me. Here and at the other board it seems to have sparked an argument, and, as far as I can tell, there has been no clarification by WotC.
mvincent 05-17-05, 05:52 PM	The hydra gets X attacks using a standard action, so it seems pretty clear that one natural attack consists of every head biting once.I don't follow that logic. Although I believe a DM would be justified in using all the heads on an AoO simply because the rules says you can (or at least one interpretation of them), I also believe the writer's intent was that this was supposed to function like the combat reflexes feat... i.e. allowing extra AoO attempts during different opportunities. It does not seem to be intended to overwrite the basic rule of 'only one AoO per opportunity per opponent'. Playing it this way is likely to be unbalancing and unfun. If you look at the Ettin for an example, note that even they do not get more than one AoO. Their extra head merely gives them the superior two-weapon fighting feat.
mountc 05-17-05, 06:35 PM	But every AoO you make one melee attack, correct? By the RAW, that's true anyway. A hydra's melee attack (attack action, not the full attack) is X attacks, where X equals the number of heads. So by strict rules interpretation, if you provoke an AoO, you receive one attack from the hydra. The hydra's one attack is actually X attacks, one from each head. That's strict and follows the rules as written.
mvincent 05-17-05, 07:06 PM	The hydra's one attack is actually X attacks, one from each head.Incorrect. Each attack is still a separate attack, they just can all be made during a standard attack action. If you allowed for 11 head attacks for each hydra attack, it's BAB would allow it even more during a full attack. Plus grappling, haste, etc. would get way out of hand (I don't even want to think of how polymorphed PC's could take advantage of this). As is, I can think of lots of obscene ways a polymorphed PC could take advantage of someone allowing multi-head attacks on an AoO. Best to not go there, especially since the writer's intent seems to be to have the hydra merely possessing combat reflexes (but with a larger number of attacks of opportunity it could make in a round). From the rules: "This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity)."
mountc 05-17-05, 09:43 PM	Then why give it combat reflexes if it only has a 12 dex? By the rules of combat reflexes you only get # of AoO's based on your dex mod. The clarification still doesn't work in that sense because then the hydra really doesn't have combat reflexes, it has a separate feat. In every other case when a monster has a similar ability to a feat, they do not give it the feat and then explain details. They give it a wholly new extraordinary ability that may mimic the feat, but is NOT the feat. By RAW, you're wrong too. That's why I want an official Wizard's ruling. RAW supports both points of view and doesn't resolve anything. EDIT: Also of note, there is NO such thing as an attack action. There is an attack, which is a standard action. A melee attack is a standard action. As such, the standard action can also be a melee attack. A hydra gets X attacks as a standard action. Therefore, again, by RAW a hydra gets X hits during each of 2 AoO's that it is granted from Combat Reflexes. If what you suggest is right, then you couldn't use improved sunder, improved trip, etc with as AoO's because they are not strictly melee attacks. And that's already been cleared up just about everywhere. The AoO can be any attack that comprises one standard action.
mvincent 05-17-05, 11:23 PM	RAW supports both points of view and doesn't resolve anything.I stated my agreement with this in my initial post. I am merely trying demonstrate what I believe to be the writer's intent. I believe it was more similar to combat reflexes (multiple attacks for multiple opportunities) rather than something much more powerful (multiple attacks on each opportunity). I'm also trying to convey some potential balance problems with treating any hydra attack as X attacks. In (for instance) a grappling situation, an 11 headed hydra would get 33 attacks (since # off attacks is based on BAB). Smart PC's would polymorph into a hydra and try this trick, use haste (for 22 attacks), whirlwind attacks (11 attacks on everyone nearby), cleaves (killling a target garners 11 additional attacks on the next target, increasing exponentially), and/or set up situations where AoO's can be maximized (fellow PC's bull-rush, trip, etc.). To me, this seems to conflict with how the D&D rules work.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-18-05, 10:52 PM	Then why give it combat reflexes if it only has a 12 dex? With a minimum of one bonus AoO. Why does everyone always miss that?
mountc 05-19-05, 07:52 AM	With a minimum of one bonus AoO. Why does everyone always miss that? Not sure what you're referring to there. That statement's not in the SRD under either hydra or Combat Reflexes.
Krelios 05-19-05, 08:36 AM	A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity. An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).Where in any of this does the Hydra get to make a full attack instead of the normal one per AoO? It doesn't, a Hydra simply has the capacity to make as many as 12 AoOs per round, if 12 opportunities present themselves. You can't imply that each of it's AoOs uses 12 heads because it doesn't say that anywhere in the text. Not even an epic feat allows a character to make a full attack on an AoO.
mountc 05-19-05, 10:42 AM	"Where in any of this does the Hydra get to make a full attack instead of the normal one per AoO?" He doesn't. He gets one attack. From the SRD entry on 5 headed hydra. Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3) Full Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3) So, as ONE attack it gets 5 bites.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-19-05, 02:10 PM	Not sure what you're referring to there. That statement's not in the SRD under either hydra or Combat Reflexes. Sorry. Misremembered. However, Combat Reflexes grants 1 bonus AoO per point of Dex bonus. So a Hydra still gets 2 AoOs.
pres_man 05-19-05, 02:13 PM	Think of it kind of like a living version of magic missile (without the auto-hit), one standard action but possible multiple hits on potentially multiple targets.
mvincent 05-19-05, 03:54 PM	Also of note, there is NO such thing as an attack action. There is an attack, which is a standard action. A melee attack is a standard action. As such, the standard action can also be a melee attack. A hydra gets X attacks as a standard action. Therefore, again, by RAW a hydra gets X hits during each of 2 AoO's that it is granted from Combat Reflexes. From the rules on reading monster stat entries: "Attack: This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action. In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well. "
The Abominable Darkling 05-19-05, 04:04 PM	I think the problem is that combat reflexes has absolutely nothing to do with this ability, so they should rework the hydra once again with the multi-attack thing as an extraordinary ability rather than as a note under feats and a line in the stat block.I second that motion. Edit: The wording on this creature remains a mess (though it is slightly better than 3.0), so I'm not going to debate which interpretation is correct. However, I would like to point out that many of you seem to place far too much emphasis on the creature's absolute number of attacks. A large number of attacks does not a dangerous creature make. You have to consider the whole picture, which includes the proability that those attacks hit, the damage that each deals, and the defences available against them. The last point is of particular relevance. 11th-level characters have numerous defences available to them with which a hydra simply cannot deal.
StormCrow42 05-19-05, 04:15 PM	(since # off attacks is based on BAB) NO, it isn't. High BAB NEVER grants extra attacks with natural weapons (but neither does low BAB limit the number of natural weapons you have and can attack with). High BAB only grants extra attacks with manufactured weapons.
yonman 05-19-05, 04:27 PM	NO, it isn't. High BAB NEVER grants extra attacks with natural weapons (but neither does low BAB limit the number of natural weapons you have and can attack with). High BAB only grants extra attacks with manufactured weapons. So does this mean that a high level Druid with multiple attacks does not get multiple attacks when he shapechanges?
pres_man 05-19-05, 04:32 PM	Only if they wild shape into a form with multiple natural attacks. Or if they wild shape into a form that is capable of holding a weapon.
yonman 05-19-05, 05:08 PM	Only if they wild shape into a form with multiple natural attacks. Or if they wild shape into a form that is capable of holding a weapon. Okay so then my next question is, if an 8th leve Druid turns into a Bear with 3 natural attacks, does he get the regular 3 natural attacks with the two 2ndary attacks at -5 to hit, or does he get the 3 natural attacks with an extra 2ndary attack due to his class level at -5 to hit as well.
mvincent 05-19-05, 05:12 PM	NO, it isn't. High BAB NEVER grants extra attacks with natural weapons.By RAW, number of attacks is determined by BAB during a grapple, and that was context of the scenario I presented in my original post: In (for instance) a grappling situation, an 11 headed hydra would get 33 attacks (since # off attacks is based on BAB). (note for future replies: I am not saying the above sample scenario is correct)
pres_man 05-19-05, 10:59 PM	Okay so then my next question is, if an 8th leve Druid turns into a Bear with 3 natural attacks, does he get the regular 3 natural attacks with the two 2ndary attacks at -5 to hit, or does he get the 3 natural attacks with an extra 2ndary attack due to his class level at -5 to hit as well. He gets 3 natural attacks, nothing more. Edit: But he uses his BAB which is probably better then the bear's, so the attack bonuses are higher, but he doesn't get anymore attacks then a normal bear. How does haste work with this? I'm not sure. Probably gets an extra attack with primary natural weapon.
mountc 05-20-05, 01:55 PM	From the rules on reading monster stat entries: "Attack: This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action. In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well. " I challenge you to find in the PHB under the actions portion where it lists attack action. It doesn't. The above is faulty wording, and in cases when text and charts don't match, the charts are correct, as delineated by WotC. An attack is a standard action. As for the attack being what a creature uses for an AoO, the most portion again doesn't confirm a single interpretation of the hydra's AoO.\ And I agree with Abominable Darkling, which is why I was pressing here to get some sort of clarification either here on the board or published in the errata. Wouldn't take much to add a clarification to the errata.
mvincent 05-20-05, 02:46 PM	I challenge you to find in the PHB under the actions portion where it lists attack action.Several different attack actions are listed. The AoO can be any attack that comprises one standard action Incorrect. The rules say: "An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack" This precludes things like ranged attacks, spells, etc (which might be listed under in a creatures attack stat). Presumeably, it precludes multi-attacks as well (if those happen to be listed as a standard action for a specialized creature). Note: actions like Sunder, Trip and such are considered melee attacks. Their descriptions list them as such. As for the attack being what a creature uses for an AoO, the most portion again doesn't confirm a single interpretation of the hydra's AoO.I wasn't saying that it did. The 'most' line merely shows that the writer's were addressing AoO's separately from an attack action (meaning they are not necessarily the same). I was pressing here to get some sort of clarification either here on the board or published in the errata. Wouldn't take much to add a clarification to the errata. I have stated (multiple times) that I agree, the rules could be interpretted either way.
Quoriil 05-20-05, 03:16 PM	(I don't even want to think of how polymorphed PC's could take advantage of this) Wait until shapechange when they get the fast healing... "Hey guys, I'm going to turn into a hydra in a sec, I want you to cut off each of my 12 heads..." <the 20th level wizard casts an extended tensers transformation, followed by shapechage:12 headed cryo-hydra; a few seconds later, his friends have cut off each of his heads with not-flaming weapons and he steps out to take his 24 Bites at +22 melee (2d8+6); a round later he breaths fire on his opponent, doing a measly 72d6 points of fire damage>
Sildatorak 05-22-05, 06:37 PM	The above is faulty wording, and in cases when text and charts don't match, the charts are correct, as delineated by WotC. You got that backwards (for most cases). Text takes precedence.
Shaudes29 05-22-05, 07:15 PM	, it's BAB would allow it even more during a full attack. "[/I] natural weapons do not benifit from aditional attacks from hi BAB..
mountc 05-22-05, 08:05 PM	You got that backwards (for most cases). Text takes precedence. Not according to the WotC Errata files. Errata Rule: Primary Sources When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. A monster's statistics block supersedes the descriptive text.
mvincent 05-23-05, 12:38 AM	Not according to the WotC Errata files. "An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. A monster's statistics block supersedes the descriptive text." For clarification, which chart were you referring to when you made this initial statement?: "I challenge you to find in the PHB under the actions portion where it lists attack action. It doesn't. The above is faulty wording, and in cases when text and charts don't match, the charts are correct, as delineated by WotC. An attack is a standard action." I wasn't really sure how it aided your argument, but I thought you were referring to a table in the PHB.
mountc 05-23-05, 06:48 AM	For clarification, which chart were you referring to when you made this initial statement?: The hydra's stat block. Its attack is X bites (X equals heads). So, each AoO is X bites. Monster stats take precedence in the event the words are faulty or dubious. I wasn't really sure how it aided your argument, but I thought you were referring to a table in the PHB. Sorry. I should have made myself more clear.