Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tamako of the Empty Hand 12-22-03, 01:17 PM	Awright, a while back there was a very good thread entitled "20th level wizard vs. army." For the sake of a little fun, let's try that with a great wyrm attacking a fortified metropolis (assume the city knows the dragon is coming). (If this has been done already I'm sorry, but I haven't been on the boards in a while). If you can think of a way for an average coastal meroplois (with normal numbers of high-level characters and normal levels of money) to defend itself, post away! A Red will burn even a grand metropolis to the ground within a few minutes, too quick for high-level party to respond. Only a well-known contingency plan for some epic characters to recieve a large payment of gold for the dragon's head in this event could prove a deterrent. A Green would probably release acid rain from the sky, which is slower than a raging fire but no less effective. The town could directly protect themselves from this only by covering most exterior surfaces with an acid-resistant metal such as gold. Rather expensive, but it could be done on just the fortifications... trapping the poor townsfolk in one place. Again the contingency of high-level help seems the only defense. A black would posion the city water supply, pure and simple. When most of the people became sick, it could punch holes in the town by loosing its line of acid at the town from ground level. Gold sheeting would be even less feasible against this attack than the Green's. But a black is weak enough that an entire of town of poeple with bows can hope to roll three natural twenties in a row and kill the beast ala The Hobbit (unless that rule got nerfed in 3.5, I don't have the 3.5 DMG). A blue's breath weapon would be less effective against stone, but lightning can start fires, and blues are pretty tough. Burrowing under the town would also be a strong possibility, collapsing many of the structures. Dwarven architects could probably rebuild the town's foundation in such a way as to make the towers collapse on he beast instead of after it is done tunneling, but the dragon might live and would only fall prey to this trick once. A white would probably be the least likely to even try such an attack, since it is the weakest of the Wyrms. Still, a few Control Weather spells can make the surrounding area more hospitable to the dragon. Flaming Ballistae stand a chance of repelling the beast, unless it is smart enough to cast an elemental resistance spell. Nevertheless, a cone-shaped rather than line-shaped breath weapon means formations of archers and/or foot soldiers (ha!) are not oging to work. Anyone who has read this far, I salute you :fight!: . Now the challenge: How can this city defend itself, besides the cheap contingency plan?
Derren S. 12-22-03, 01:29 PM	Lots of magical arrows. With the weakened DR dragons have in 3.5 some hundered magical arrows fired at the same time would statistically kill any dragon. But the dragon has means of defend itself against that.
Mirtek 12-22-03, 04:56 PM	Yep, with the new DR rules it's easy enough to arm enough archers with arrows which can hurt the dragon. It's all about how many of them get the oppurtunity to get a shoot at the dragon. It's easy enough to calculate how much hits you need to kill the dragon, it's just the matter of getting enough archers to fire to score the needed hits
the_heart 12-23-03, 04:30 AM	Originally posted by Tamako of the Empty Hand But a black is weak enough that an entire of town of poeple with bows can hope to roll three natural twenties in a row and kill the beast ala The Hobbit (unless that rule got nerfed in 3.5, I don't have the 3.5 DMG). that was never a Core rule in 3.0, it was an optional rule(a very bad one too, IMO). traditional way is to bribe it with gold and virgins, to buy time until you can acquire high level help. but a large number of ballistae would help.for general defences, building with heat resistant ceramic should protect against both fire and acid. get all the temples to dedicate staff to memorising greater magic weapon and have a system of kids running enchanted arrows to the walls. have the high level guys ewuipped with contingent teleports to a stockpile of anti dragon equipment(dragon bane weapons, enhanced scrolls of wingbind etc.) problem is if you know enough about the dragon to start building (or rebuilding) the city with specific defences, a great wyrm is likely to have the resources to know about the alterations, and attack before they are in place(gold plating a building takes time) or utilise non standard attacks(red dragon learning Cone of Cold)
jagggar 12-23-03, 07:31 PM	Let's see. . . Send a party of high level characters to the closest gold great wyrm and offer sizable amounts of treasure in return for the help? :D And who says a metallic dragon can't be attacking the city?
scott644 12-24-03, 03:41 PM	A metropolis will have significant numbers of mid- to high-level characters available. They likely won't be entirely organized but they'll have significant magical capabilities to drive the critter away or even kill it. Note for this I consider non-magical and spell-level up to 3 as low-level, spell-level 4-6 as mid-level, and above that high-level. Low-level tools and weapons: Magic missile, flight, haste, invisibility. Lots of scrolls and potions. Poisons. Using the Book of Exalted Deads, ravages and certain exalted feats. Mid-level tools and weapons: Magic items can now be acquired of the nature to break through the dragon's DR. Wall spells (especially wall of force), numerous no-save/no-SR spells in the spell list. Summoned creatures of elemental types opposed to the dragon's. High-level tools and weapons: Just about everything - get creative. Epic: The possibilities boggle the mind.
Vanigo 12-24-03, 08:41 PM	Let's see here... A few dozen low to mid level wizards, sorcerers, rogues, and bards with wands of Melf's acid arrow pop out of the woodwork. The dragon's touch AC is negligible, so 95% of them hit. The dragon takes around 92d4 points of acid damage (including damage from crits), then another 86d4 on the next round. That's an average of 445 damage for each round of this barrage. Melf's acid arrow does not allow a save, and SR does not apply. It's a long range spell, so the firers are out of range of most of what the dragon can do. If it's a green or black dragon, use wands of energy substituted (sonic) Melf's acid arrow instead.
Devilfish 12-25-03, 12:29 AM	It's common knowledge that the power inflation between the strong and the weak in DnD is preposterous. In DnD mass combat does not work, and the entire society doesn't work if you think too hard about it. People would live like mice, scurrying to avoid being noticed or caught as bystanders by the godlike powers that warred over the world with reality-bending levels of supernatural power. However, I think that it's reasonable to suggest that a city's stone structures and walls might stand up to fire or even acid better than you're thinking, though indeed a Great Wyrm breath weapon is upwards of a heavy naval cannon in terms of raw power. A city ought ot have a certain amount of magic and technology at its disposal-- clerics would run around healing people and protectingt hings, fighters would turn into a citywide bow-and-arrow calliope, and Wizards and Psions would think fast for the best ways to make their magic work against the threat. Rogues, of course, would rob everyone while they were looking away. I think the best anti-dragon weapon is artillery-- specifically the static heavy ballista. A giant crossbow firing a giant arrow is as much or even more effective against a giant lizard than a regular crossbow would be against a regular lizard-- cube/square law. Of course there are no set D20 system rules for usin artillery against large creatures, especially flying ones, but if you think about it it should work.
Jaern 12-26-03, 12:57 AM	Personally, for ballista, I'd allow them to add the size to their base attack roll (it still needs to hit the AC, however). The most effective weapon, however, is 100 men armed with longbows. That's a 6.25% chance of an autokill (using the 3x 20's rule) each round. The dragon's breath weapon is an energy attack, so it goes through building hardness (realistically speaking, a dragon can burn down an entire town in one use of its breath weapon).
Devilfish 12-26-03, 05:48 PM	Objects take 50% damage from energy attacks. Also, I think that common-sense dictataes that you should sometimes use the hardness and sometimes even increase it-- I'd say a stone wall has hardness against fire; you've got to reacha certain temperature before the wall begins, bit by bit, to show damage in the form of thermal cracking and even melting. Lightning vs. Stone? Double to triple hardness. First, if you want to electrically heat the stone, you've got to cause dielectric breakdown of the stone's insulating properties. THEN you've got to heat it to the point of destructive. And that's a LOT of stone. I'd handle it by this formula: Effective Hardness = (Base Hardness + 1)(Thickness/6 feet)
nick012000 12-26-03, 08:14 PM	Umm... a Great Blue Wyrm's breath weapon deals 24d8 damage. A Sidewinder missile deals 20d6 damage, according to the d20 Modern Supplement Menace Manual. That should give you a sense of how powerful a Great Wyrm's breath weapon is.
wdarkk 12-26-03, 10:58 PM	And an M1A2 can deal 12d10. The dragon does almost twice as much damage as the most powerful modern tank. A Great Red Wyrm does 24d10, exactly twice as much. And now it can maximize that. 240 fire damage will _hurt_. That would be like standing under a space shuttle launch. I remember in the mid 90's there were these "superfires" in structures in the South set by some arsonist. Melted concrete and steal like they were chocolate. I'd say a Great Red Wyrm could melt most anything.
jagggar 12-26-03, 11:45 PM	posted to early
Devilfish 12-27-03, 04:18 AM	Fine, then-- 2 tank shells' worth of fire damage. Try shooting a caste with a tank twice; I have a suspicion that most of it will still be standing.
wdarkk 12-27-03, 04:28 AM	You'd be surprised. Those things weren't too thick and weren't too well built (by modern standards). One tank hit could easily topple a corner tower. Later on when they designed fortifications to withstand gunfire, they made them much, much thicker and used many yards of packed dirt to brace the outer walls. Oh, and Maximize Breath makes it closer to 4 tank hits.
Devilfish 12-27-03, 05:13 AM	Hmm, good point. People WOULD build fortifications to the best of their abilities in a world full of tremendous destructive powers, though. Also, a good city has an air-force of people riding flying creatures or devices, and they would be ready for the dragon. Unless of course the Dragon used Improved Invisibility, which it would... damn it... That's something I really do HATE about this game: Dragon-Ball-Z like levels of power. If you ever think too hard about reality and the campaign world after about level 10 it just falls to pieces. This really frustrates me sometimes... I say it's the result of a poorly thought out, childish desire to impress people with sheer worldbending capabilites, and sky-high levels of power. Mass combat flat-out DOES NOT WORK in d20, and doing much of anything besides adventuring and fighting (beyond 10th level or so) simply DOES NOT WORK. Think about this: a single adventurer will be able to accomplish more of just about ANYTHING than a whole village of regular little people. What does a village do that an adventurer couldn't? Farm, build, raise children? An adventurer could put enough skill points into any profession or form of manual labor to wipe the walls with the best of trained porfessionals or time-hardened workers and STILL have the additional ability to kill the entire town one-handed. Superhuman adventurers dwarf the accomplishments of entire races. There's NOTHING they're not orders of magnitude more effective at! Put fifteen ranks into profession(farming) or craft(structure), and add points for elite ability scores, masterwork or magical tools, and feats, and then enjoy being better than everyone at everything. And don't even BRING UP the use of spells here... unless you watch the villagers cry and possibly commit suicide as you do ten times their lifes' work-- earned with blood, sweat, and tears-- in five minutes without even really trying. Why, if you give an umpteenth level cleric with the Earth domain (for Soften and Shape) a year, he can make a one-mile staircase at one end of a mile-deep canyon, a road across with periodic shelters, and another mile-high staircase at the other end. This is if a cruel DM has taken away the ability to just fly or teleport anywhere easily. A guy I know DID this. Adventurers are like Gods, and everyone would become one, or if they couldn't, they'd wallow in a truly meaningless and tiny existence and hope they didn't get killed for passing fun by someone to whom they did not even merit enslaving, due to their sheer weakness, stupidity, and general all-around uselessness. The d20 system spent all its time building up tremendous things to fight and forgot to create a world that could contain their massive monsters and deity-level magic! But who cares-- DnD isn't about being a character in a fantasy world, right? It's about fighting and getting wealth and power! Wealth and Power which you don't even bother to use, except on more fighting, because the world's so insignificant anyways. But the only alternative is White Wolf's system which has... its own problems... GRR. Okay rant over... I'm gonna bow out of this thread. Flame away.
jagggar 12-27-03, 11:32 PM	Could someone tell me when all these ballistic damage type weapons started doing energy damage? Dragons don't breath missles, so could someone tell me how it applies? The SRD says that fire does half damage against most objects, and I don't think stone is very flamable.
icemanjmw 12-27-03, 11:43 PM	It's important to keep in mind that not being very flammable is different from being immune to fire. No, stone will not catch fire and proceed to burn all along a stretch of wall, but if it gets hot enough it will start to melt which will destroy the integrity of most structures. As a DM you're free to rule that stone is completely invulnerable to fire, but if you do that you have to make sure you retain consistency in your campaign. Meaning you have to be careful what fire melts because the PCs will remember that it can't melt stone, and therefore assume it also won't affect a lot of other materials.
jagggar 12-27-03, 11:54 PM	I'm not saying fire won't melt stone. I'm just saying that comparing something like the red wyrm's breath to a missile is somewhat akin to comparing the wound left by a bastard sword to the wound left by a greatclub. They both do 1d10 damage numericly, but that doesn't mean that they'll both leave a bloody gash.
nick012000 12-28-03, 01:36 AM	Well, think of it this way: Total Immersion in lava is 20d6 damage. Being hit by a great red wyrm's breath weapon is 24d10 damage.
scott644 12-28-03, 10:16 AM	Energy tends to bypass object hardness, thus the fact that objects usually take half damage from energy. Now as to fire damaging stone - far more likely to crack it than to melt it, given the time frame. The differential of hot on one side and cool on the other results in a shattering of the stone. Lightning works similarly - the heat from the bolt instantaneously vaporizing every bit of ater in every crack, shattering the stone with massive internal pressures. Acid would simply eat away at the stone. Strong enough and plentiful enough acid would actually do so in a believable manner. Cold creates an effect similar to fire, only with extreme cold on one side and relative warmth on the other. Sonic is the one I believe that ignores the half-damage effect? Mainly because it will at some point hit the resonance frequency of the stone and shatter it through vibration. Now I've seen it said here a great wyrm could theoretically destroy a town in a single pass. That's quite impressive, given the range of the breath weapons isn't large enough to take down a sparsely populated settlement of 15 families in one shot, much less a whole town or city. This is where the time-honored strategy of "Run for your lives!" comes into play - the dragon has to make numerous passess, meaning the victims stand a very good chance of most of them at least escaping with their lives.
primemover003 12-28-03, 04:58 PM	Firstly the Breath weapon is more useful against creatures than objects. Multiple uses of the BW against a city gate will weaken it for the dragon to batter it down, but it won't just melt in one breath. Look at the Movie "Reign of Fire." When the Main dragon attacks the Castle it sets all the wooden aspects of it aflame and the stone is toppled... but only because the wood supports are gone. A completely stone structure will fare much better against fire. A metropolis won't be razed by a single dragon, no matter what the size or age. There will be enough Wizards, Clerics, and Fighters to drive it away. A Great Wyrm would be a fool to attack a metropolis. It's better to use hit and run tactics against a small town and demand tribute than to completely destroy the city. Food, coin, and goods in a steady supply are better than picking through the rubble to loot for whatever may have survived.
jagggar 12-30-03, 12:53 AM	I'm not bored! I swear! Population Breakdown for 26000 adult Metropolis (All rolls have been averaged and are in accordance with the 3.0 DMG town generation tables) Population at a glance: 22415 1st-level commoners 1217 1st-level warriors 730 1st-level experts 122 1st-level adepts 122 1st-level aristocrats 1364 PC class residents 300 NPC class residents above 1st-level Barbarians 124 Rogues 124 2 15th-level 2 17th-level 2 14th-level 2 16th-level 4 8th-level 4 9th-level 4 7th-level 4 8th-level 16 4th-level 8 5th-level 32 2nd-level 8 4th-level 64 1st-level 16 3rd-level 16 2nd-level Bards 124 64 1st-level 2 16th-level 2 15th-level Sorcerers 124 8 8th-level 2 15th-level 16 4th-level 2 14th-level 32 2nd-level 4 8th-level 64 1st-level 4 7th-level 16 4th-level Clerics 124 32 2nd-level 2 16th-level 64 1st-level 2 15th-level 8 8th-level Wizards 124 16 4th-level 2 15th-level 32 2nd-level 2 14th-level 64 1st-level 4 8th-level 4 7th-level Druids 124 16 4th-level 2 16th-level 32 2nd-level 2 15th-level 64 1st-level 8 8th-level 16 4th-level NPC Classes above 1st-level 32 2nd-level Adepts 60 64 1st-level 2 16th-level 2 15th-level Fighters 124 8 8th-level 2 17th-level 16 4th-level 2 16th-level 32 2nd-level 4 9th-level 4 8th-level Aristocrats 60 8 5th-level 2 15th-level 8 4th-level 2 14th-level 16 3rd-level 4 8th-level 16 2nd-level 4 7th-level 64 1st-level 16 4th-level 32 2nd-level Monks 124 2 15th-level Commoner 60 2 14th-level 4 20th-level 4 8th-level 8 10th-level 4 7th-level 16 5th-level 16 4th-level 32 3rd-level 32 2nd-level 64 1st-level Expert 60 2 20th-level Paladin 124 2 19th-level 4 14th-level 8 10th-level 8 7th-level 16 5th-level 16 4th-level 32 3rd-level 32 2nd-level 64 1st-level Warrior 60 4 17th-level Rangers 124 8 9th-level 4 14th-level 16 5th-level 8 7th-level 32 3rd-level 16 4th-level 32 2nd-level 64 1st-level There's the people resources. That's just the adult population, I'm not sure how many kids there'd be.
wdarkk 12-30-03, 05:41 AM	So (assuming no magic items) the dragon's looking at maximum of 8th-level spells. It's SR is looking pretty worthwhile too. 32-15=17, so they need to roll at least a 13 (depending on feats). On the other hand, some castings of GMW from one of those Wizards or Sorcerers could provided a lot of ammo for the people to try to get lucky with.
scott644 12-30-03, 09:42 AM	The best uses of the high-level spell-casting PC's honestly, is pump-work. The mid-levels can put the ammo to devastating use, and the spellcasters can then nail the dragon with spells that allow no SR. Imagine a Wall of Force cast just in front of the dragon's flight path - ouch! Or better, a prismatic wall - the caster waits until teh dragon finishes a wingover, then casts it in its flight-path! Probably wouldn't kill it, but that'd be one potentially seriously injured dragon.
jagggar 12-30-03, 03:50 PM	I wouldn't doubt that there'd be many magic items already made. What good metropolis isn't going to have a well supplied market? If you move the city to the Realms, the sorcerers become equal to the cleric list and the wizards become equal to the fighter list. Oh, and could we not have any more of that optional 3-crit-kill rule, please?
Grynn 12-30-03, 05:13 PM	With around 40 people of PC classes at or above level 14, even a great red wyrm would be wise to stay back. Give those high level wizards and sorcerers an average amount of powerful spells (wands of lightning bolt, cone of cold, acid fog, disintegrate, wands of ice storm), and s/he would be dead in a hurry.
Derren S. 12-30-03, 05:18 PM	The casters aren't the main threat considering that a GW Red Dragon can have an SR of 40. The main threat for the dragon are the many attacks from archers he will get and with the 20 = success rule he will get hit (unlike with SR where this rule dosn't apply).
BenjCano 12-30-03, 08:46 PM	So let me get this straight... I'm a dragon (for the sake of argument, let's say a great wyrm blue). I'm a thousand years old, and I have an Intelligence of 22. And the only way I can think of to attack a fortified city is to fly out and breath on it? Jeezum crow, let's give these beasties the credit of their intelligence scores, shall we? For whatever reason, this city has to go. Fine. Who cares why, but my objective is to see it smashed, with no stone left against another. Using polymorph, I first infiltrate this city and carry a detailed recon operation, determining the local power figures, powerful PC adventurers, and likely points of opposition. I then carry out a few select assassinations. The Lord Mayor, the Captain of the Guard, any influential guild head. My goal is to throw the city into chaos so that it will be unable to mount a coordinated response to my attack. If possible, I bribe some doppelgangers or shapeshifters into taking the identiies of the people I've killed, so as to give me a fifth wheel inside the city when I reach out with my mighty talon to smite it down. I have 384,000 gold in my horde. It'll hurt me to part with it, but I know that I can plunder easily that much once my objective is complete. With this fortune, I buy a few warehouses, storefronts, and storage facilities in the city and fill them with alchemists fire. Bales and bales and bales of alchemists fire. I paint the roof a distinctive color to make it easily visible from the air. Now I recruit the local bandits and highway men in the area, and coerce them into raiding caravans carrying the supplies this city most needs. With the Captain of the Guard dead or in my control, I will be able to stop the city from responding to this, and deprive them of supplies and weapons. I go to the monstrous humanoids in the area and stir them up into a feeding frenzy against the people of the city (probably not hard). I have them raid the food producing sights in the nearby areas, farms and dairies and vinyards and the like. This way, when I move the city won't have the capaity to stand against a siege if things don't go my way. Now I hire a few mercenary troops of considerable size and have them march on the city. When the gates have been closed, that's when I reveal myself, flying over and setting fire to the buildings that I'd prepared earlier. There's an army at the gates, a dragon overhead, and fires breaking out on a massive scale. There are no supplies, no food, and confusion with the local heads of the city dead. The city is mine.
CDW22 12-31-03, 04:45 AM	Everyone here seems to have forgotten a huge part of this equasion when it comes to the local miltia attacking the Dragon, Dragonfear. As a Great Wyrm, anything that wasn't immune to fear or high level would be running with their tail between their legs at the sight of this thing, giving him a free 4d6 rounds to raise Baator...at a distance of 360 feet?
scott644 12-31-03, 06:27 PM	The fear effect only works in specific circumstances. In order to implement it the dragon has to expose itself to the more powerful weapons of the most powerful defenders of a city. As for a dragon using cunning and guile to conquer and destroy? Depends on the breed. There's not a red in existance that would be so willing to cooperate with others or part with so much as a copper to accomplish this destruction - in fact why do so, when it is a penultimate force of destruction in the world? Similar situations with many other breeds.
Devilfish 12-31-03, 08:09 PM	The most powerful thing about a Great Wyrm isn't Dragonfear, or high HP and armor. It isn't damage reduction, the breath weapon, or flight. Great Wyrms cast spells as extremely high-level Sorcerors. Goodbye, city. (Trivia: I wonder if a Dragon with class levels in Sorceror would stack them with is existing Sorcerous spellcasting ability? If so, a Great Wyrm would take only a few thousand XP to go into Epic-Level Sorceror. Goodbye, city, county, and continent!)
wdarkk 12-31-03, 10:55 PM	They stack. I know it's in the FAQ for the MM, and probably in the MM itself.
jagggar 01-02-04, 12:47 AM	Originally posted by scott644 The fear effect only works in specific circumstances. In order to implement it the dragon has to expose itself to the more powerful weapons of the most powerful defenders of a city. As for a dragon using cunning and guile to conquer and destroy? Depends on the breed. There's not a red in existance that would be so willing to cooperate with others or part with so much as a copper to accomplish this destruction - in fact why do so, when it is a penultimate force of destruction in the world? Similar situations with many other breeds. Isn't all a dragon has to do for the fear effect to work is to act threatening? A red might not cooperate, but that doesn't mean it won't command others.
Joker706 01-30-04, 03:22 PM	Well, from what i've read about clerics....Those with the domain corresponding to the dragons type can turn/rebuke it as if it were undead....with a portion of the town temple's high level clerics lending their energy, a cleric might be able to turn the dragon away, or even destroy it....the others could lend healing to the soldiers and the mages could nullify its breath attacks with their various spells
Slagger the Chuul 01-31-04, 12:28 AM	The general populace of low-level will be fleeing in fear except for the paladins, the mid-level combatants will be throwing attacks that the dragon will shrug off (due to its many protective features) or buffing others. The high-level characters will have trouble staying alive as they try to hurt a dragon that can ignore half of what they throw at it. If they group togther to face it, it can fly to the other side of the city to wreak havoc. If they spread out, it can pick them off. The trouble is that the dragon has a full arsenal of offensive and defensive tactics that make it a tough target even for an adventuring party qualified to face it. If the city includes one psychic warrior with the Deep Impact feat and a Coup de Grace scythe, it can magically buff her before using dimension door to place her next to the dragon for a quick kill (unless she rolls a natural 1; Oops!). If it has a suitable psion, it could also throw fate of one in the mix to improve the chances. Being saved by cheese is a suitable doom for a city that refuses to take the cheap adventurer option. :)
Boondoggle 01-31-04, 03:46 AM	Random comments: Joker, a great red wyrm has 40 HD, no cleric is going to rebuke it, much less control it. Anyone else find humor in the fact that the 6 highest level people in the town are the 4 20th level commoners and 2 20th level experts? I believe that siege weapons, in general, don't make regular attack rolls. Ballistae, on the otherhand, are just very large crossbows fixed in place, so they will still have to deal with the dragons natural armor. If a dragon does attack the city, why would it want to raze it? If you destroy everything, there's nothing left to loot and hoard. The dragons primary goal should be to kill everyone in the city, not destroy the city. A few widened, extended casting of cloudkill some calm night would likely eliminate 90% of the threat. Simply cast the spell a couple hundred feet or so above the city so that when it finally falls to the ground, it will immediately envelope most of the city. Of course, this would only work on a warm night when the town wasn't boarded up, but the only opening needed to allow the entrance of the spread is 1 foot by 1 foot, so most houses would be effected. Attack the next day, I'm sure there will be some sort of moral penalty.
Slagger the Chuul 01-31-04, 09:40 PM	Originally posted by Boondoggle Joker, a great red wyrm has 40 HD, no cleric is going to rebuke it, much less control it. Personally, I was assuming an Aid Another variant. Adding +2 to the checks for each additional participant would work. In theory, you're saturating the area with larger amounts of energy.
BenjCano 01-31-04, 10:41 PM	Slagger, You eventually reach a point of diminishing return on a turn check. No matter how higher than 22 you make on your turn check, you've reached your limit, and you can turn a creature with HD equal to your Cleric level +4.
Mirtek 02-01-04, 07:27 AM	Originally posted by BenjCano There are no supplies, no food, and confusion with the local heads of the city dead. The city is mine. You let it all sound a little too easy. A large metropploes won't be starved so easily. Even with some of the high ups dead, there will be enough low rank or medium rank officiers left to drive of some highway men and monstrous humnoids. Also don't forget what destruction a single level 15 adventurer party can bring upon your troops or upon all your carefull infiltrations
BrazilRascal 02-01-04, 06:29 PM	Indeed, placing too much emphasis on the dragon's Breath Weapon underestimates the full and wonderful range of chaos a dragon can unleash if it has its sights on a major city. Let's not forget the Dragonfear that would sweep the city and make pretty much everyone below 7th level run to the hills (except for the paladins). Also, the rule that "well, if there are 500 people shooting arrows, a set % of them will rolls 20s and scroe critical hits which will slay the dragon" often dpesn't take into account that critical hits have to be confirmed. So 5% of 5% of the people shooting will be able to cause decent damage. Given the dragonfear noted above, that won't be too many people shooting. Also, if it has access to high-level spells (or scrolls of them), the city's odds of survival are drastically reduced. Earthquake can send the stone building that might have resisted the fire tumbling down on top of the defenders; The cloudkill, incendiary cloud, Fear, and weather spells can keep large amounts of defenders either bog down of outright dead. In addition, spells like Stoneskin, Iron Body and others. Protection from Elements can make it practicallt invulnerable to yet another kind of energy, further reducing the effective number of sources of harm that can damage it. And who says it has to attack in plain sight? One casting of Greater Invisibility, and it may be precious hours until the city even knows that it is a Dragon and not something else raining doom on their heads. A particularly clever dragon might even wear an illusion or change shapes to appear as some other color; let the mages cast their fireballs at a red dragon in a white's clothing! Odds can be further stacked in the favor of the wyrm by manipulating the weather to cause glaes that makes arrows veer off course, mist that blocks sight, and dozens of other alternatives. All of that, and more, deals only with the combat aspect of the mission of conquest. A more patient dragon may simply disguise himself, take the place of some influent figure, and start hiring the most powerful heroes/defenders for missions far, far away, leaving the city even more unguarded to the killing blow that draws near. I like to think of an ancient dragon as a whole PC party rolled into a single beings, then made a hundred times wiser, patient and more crafty. It is strong, yes, but it will also play up its strenths, cover its weaknesses and make a move only when it is sure that everythiong that could be working in its favor is doing so (maybe not so for White dragons). And like the PCs, Dragons may also like to use their toys. Magic items with Displacement, Mirror Image, Heal and Blink hav eother uses than shining from atop a treasure pile. :angel:
Slizaro 02-03-04, 07:05 PM	Ok, Lets say we have this city- a dragon new to the area has just issued an ultimatum that they must hand over X-gold and they (for some very good reason) decide to fight instead. The dragon being new to the area explains why 1) there is a city there and 2) why it is not specifically build beforehand to deal with dragons. ok so you have your dragon, your forewarning, and your city. 1st I have to say that Metropolises as presented are tiny. When I think of an ancient Metropolises I'm thinking of Ancient Rome, or Medieval Paris or London, all of which had populations over one million. So we have this town of 26,000 adults. If you have enough time, your going to start equipping the commoners with short bows/x-bows, though would give you about 1,000d6 - d8 damage per round (a 20 is a hit even if it doesn't crit). Frightful presence isn't a huge concern unless the dragon can sneak up on the city, It's range is only 360 feet- Well within the range of the bows range of 700-800 feet. The range of it's longest spells is 600 feet, so even to do that it would have to take some damage. So assuming the unlikely scenario of a direct flyover, the dragon would take around 3,000 points of damage before it can do anything, and another 3,000 before it can do anything else. The only way around this would be if it could run-fly which would allow its frightful presence to take effect, assuming that it is close enough to the ground, if you have a sphere of radius of 360' and your 300' up then you would only effect........multi-variable calculus. Even that only works if the bows aren't 'readied’ to fire at max range. A secondary effect of this measure would be that It would completely drain the city’s treasury and cause the destruction of all forests with in a few miles, making the city mostly worthless to the dragon anyway. For dragon would attempt such an act, it would have to follow a plan more similar to the one BenjCano submitted.
jagggar 02-03-04, 09:04 PM	Originally posted by Slizaro Ok, Lets say we have this city- a dragon new to the area has just issued an ultimatum that they must hand over X-gold and they (for some very good reason) decide to fight instead. So we have this town of 26,000 adults. If you have enough time, your going to start equipping the commoners with short bows/x-bows, though would give you about 1,000d6 - d8 damage per round (a 20 is a hit even if it doesn't crit). Frightful presence isn't a huge concern unless the dragon can sneak up on the city, It's range is only 360 feet- Well within the range of the bows range of 700-800 feet. The range of it's longest spells is 600 feet, so even to do that it would have to take some damage. Let's say the dragon wants 44,000,000 GP. That's a lot of gold. . . That's how much 22,000 +1 enchantments cost. (You need these to get past the dragon's DR. You're going to have an even harder time if you're using a 3.0 dragon from before the DR was changed.) Not including the MW weapons. Let's give them the benifit of the doubt that they can actually get that many bows for the commoners, that they've got 22,000 combatant commoners even though they can't use bows and we know the track record of commoners in battle isn't good (3.0 DMG page 158). I, the dragon, create a wingstorm (check Draconomicon feats). Smallest a great wyrm will be is gargantuan, which creates a hurricane force wind. From the DMG table on wind effects, normal ranged attacks are impossible in hurricane winds. After a while, they'll be out of arrows.
Xas 02-04-04, 07:30 AM	no one realized the big mistake?greens breath poison and blacks breath acid...about face..
Kayli 02-17-04, 12:56 AM	No one has even mentioneed the Wonderfull PrC in the Draconomicon. The Elemental Master can Create a Force of Elemental Wind around its body that makes it immune to ranged attacksescept maybe from Bulistae, The Hide Carved Dragon gains increases to Spell Resistance, bonus' to natural Armor, and energy resistances to other types than its normal immunity. The Dragon Ascendants Fear Aura is Altered and made more Powerfull (it is always on even if Said Dragon is invisable), and he eventually gains a Deflection Bonus = to his Cha Mod. The Disciple of Ashardolon Gains all the abilities of the Half Fiend Template. And the BloodScaled Fury would Laugh at the Pathetic attempts to protect the City. Its Fear Aura is made stronger and lasts longer so even higher lvl NPC's in the town would cower in fear as it came over head. Plus eventually you need Cold Iron Weapons to beat its damage reduction and those arn't easy to come by. + "Overcome Weakness" helps the Dragon against all those pesky energy spell that are it's opposition. Lingering Breath and Clinging Breath will Ramp up the Damage that his Breath Weapon Deals especially to structures. Awaken Frieghtful Presence will increase the Fear Aura Distance out to 540 ft. and increas it's save DC by 2. (this feat is stackable). So a Great Wyrm Dragon Ascendant (lvl1) can go invisible until it is hovering over the city, and turn on it's Fear aura with out losing it's invisibility, With out Attacking, With out Revealing itself and affect almost every one within a radious of 540 ft Who's looking forward to that will save DC 40? Even High Lvl Charecters will have a hard time rolling that. Don't Forget that while every one is panicking no one will even know why their Panicking. The Dragon is invisible, See? Granted any dragon that attacks a Metropolis all by it's self can expect to take a lot of damage but in all likely hood would succeed. The Question is Why would it go to the bother? That Metropolis must have done something pretty offensive to the Dragon to earn that kind of wrath.
Dread Emporer 02-18-04, 09:05 PM	Has anyone noticed that one maybe two plans have been laid out for the city and not dragons:confused:
Kayli 02-19-04, 01:39 AM	That Takes a little bit more thought, and it's funner to think about it from the dragons perspective. Actually, if the Metropol wants any chance to survive, it would have to do that as well. The Key for the Town is to think, "what would I do if I were the Dragon?" Then again they would need a pretty good Dragon expert handy to come up with the right Answeres. Also, I forgot about the Fact that a Great Wyrm Dragon is going to have the Resources to make itself immune to Crits :D There goes the Metropols Chance of Instant Crit Kill. The Metropol has forwarning of the Impending Dragon Attack is that Right???
Vanigo 02-19-04, 06:56 PM	The city can probably repel the dragon. Consider: The city has several high level wizards. They can scribe scrolls to buff a large number of mid-high level fighters and rogues, as well as themselves, with the following spells: Mind blank Fly Greater invisibility Hide from dragons These are the critical ones. Other combat buffs are of course helpful. They can then teleport or dimention door to near the dragon, carrying the other people with them. The dragon can't detect them. One of the highest level casters opens with lower spell resistance. One of the others should be ready to cast another if the first fails. Next, the spellcasters each cast fire orb, energy substituted if neccesary, on the dragon, from CL 15 scrolls. They split the damage up into fifteen separate orbs, but all are targeted at the dragon. For each caster that gets through its now-almost-useless SR, the dragon has to make fifteen consecutive fortitude saves or be dazed for the round. (Maybe only fourteen saves if the caster rolls a natural 1). With around 57 chances to roll a natural 1, he's more than likely to be dazed for the round. Now the melee types get a round to beat on the dragon, who can't strike back or move away. All this breaks the hide from dragons effect, but it doesn't matter anymore. Wounding weapons are helpful, but not required. Brilliant energy weapons are of course very helpful. Next round, the spellcasters unleash another volley of fire orbs. Lather, rinse, repeat. The dragon may get a round or two, but it's not very likely, and even if he does he won't be able to kill enough people to save himself.
scaryfroman 02-19-04, 08:37 PM	Simple as hiring a metallic dragon to help. the money spent on all of those magic weapons could entice a gold dragon to help. 'nuff said
gooru 02-21-04, 12:26 PM	with time... it is possible. But still, unlikely. Simple matter of this: A smart dragon knows that if it sits in the city, it *could* have trouble, unless its just stupid. So, what can it do... well, time stop only effect instaneous spells and spell with less duration than the time stop. So... why not have the dragon (with sorc cast lvl 19) all buffed up with spells like greater invisibility, nondection, protection from law, protection from good, shield, iron body, hell, sequester if thats possible... teleport above the city, if it doesn't care about destroying it or not (perhaps it is the first of many and is to be made an example of) he casts a delayed meteror swarm a few times on various parts of our city of 26001 peons and at the last bit of his time stop, teleport away. Rinse and repeat for a week! Or, if we are doing 3.5 and I don't have the proper interpretation of time stop and casting spells in it... another duration spell which is very nasty. Main point: if the dragon wants to win, it can. I could spend 10 years researching a "destroy metropolis" spell and then travel some where to "level up" to a 21 level caster and then use a spell seed to get a duration spell with an area of 1000 ft per level or something and a range of 1 mile per level and not even worry about encountering the city. Sub point: If the city has time, it could hire PCs to intercept the dragon and possibly hunt it down before it can do anything... big dragons probally don't kill towns because they got bored of doing that 1000 years before.
gradea 02-21-04, 05:44 PM	A metropolis will have a number of fairly high level wizards, all with wands and staves, eventually one will dispell any invisibility being used, and having a hundred wizards pound you with wands of fire ball is enough to bring down most creatuers. Also, i genenraly house rule certin things, such as the number of high level characters in the city. Also, what technology are we talking here? Heavy Cannon Shot 12d10. fires once per 4 rounds, assuming a city has a hiden battery or two of them...well, boom. PS. Reinforced Masonry is 15 hp per inch, hardness 8. a 5 foot thick wall therefor has 900 hit points, assuming it lacks magical enhancements. Even Maximized red dragon breath will 8 hits to down it (120 per shot do to the 50% reduction). Thats one secontion (though only an outer wall would be that thick, one foot would still take two hits, and remember, forts are large)