Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sken Dingle 07-06-05, 04:28 PM	Okay, I understand ECL, I know how it works. And my question has probably been answered, but I just want to hear peoples rationals. I have a Grey Render. 10 hit die, +5 level adjustment. That means if I want to play him, he's a 15th level character. That's cool, I get that. BUT, he's a CR 8 and a 15th level fighter is a CR 15. Do you see my confusion? I contend humanoids with levels isn't a straight CR match anyway, but that's my opinion. How does this jive. A Grey Render is a CR 8, but then how is it the same as a 15th level Character if a 15th level character is a CR 15? PS: When putting levels on a monster how do you judge if the class is associated or not, if the monster has elements of many classes? Are all classes associated then? For example, many demons have SLA and can hit hard. What about a Lamia? Magic user or rogue or fight or all of the above? Is this just a judgement call? Thanks
Hochi-min trail 07-06-05, 05:00 PM	OK, I'll try and answer this. The rational working behind this is tough. They are supposed to contribute the same to the party. However, a 15th level fighter can probably beat the gray render in several rounds without osing that much. I use to try a different system of my own, but it didn't work. It basically gave each creatire the ECL of its CR+4, with the rational that each player has a 50/50 chance of beating another member. what that means is that they both lose 100% of their resources in order to win. now a gray render would have a CR+2 at first (lower the party that tries to kill it from 4 PC's to two PC's) and then another +2 (from two PC's to one PC). However, the creatures turned out too strong, especially for those with asscociated class levels. And here is where i get to the second question: A monster that has the ability to cast as a X level caster, has that caster as an asscociated class. However, some of it is judgement of the DM. A kelvezu should have the rogue as an asscociated class, and a gray render should have the ranger, fighter and barbarian classses, since he is obviously a melee type monster.
Raven Dark 07-06-05, 08:15 PM	That Grey Render PC of yours gets starting funds equal to that 15th level fighter PC. Outfit him appropriately and you will see that power gap dissapear almost completely. An NPC Gray Render doesn't have that kind of equipment (or even the modified ability scores) so they have a CR of 8. Also, the CR system measures a creature's power against the 4 PCs while the ECL system measures the same creature's power in a group of 4 PCs. CR = Allows DMs to find appropriate encounters for the characters. ECL = Allows players to play unique characters without stealing the show from the other players. But you probably already knew that.
JBW 07-07-05, 03:19 PM	Assuming that your Grey Render PC had exceptional Ability Scores (anything of the 'Elite Array' or better) and that's an easy +1 CR. As other have said, stacking on leve-expected wealth will shoot the CR way up too. Jay
BelRex 07-08-05, 12:40 AM	This is a question that has been bothering me, and goes along with the OP's second question. Lets say you have a character that wants to take non associated class levels...why should they still have to pay for these with a full LA..when it clearly isn't. For example: A minotaur should be a fighter type..but what if the character wanted a wizard. If he starts taking wizard levels..it's going to be a while before he catches up. Couldn't you double up the class benefits per HD until it is equal to the CR(when usually non associated class levels..become associated). This is almost as bad as say..a level 15 fighter suddenly taking levels in wizard. It just seems...odd